Lisabob

Sorry to let you down Kudu but no, we are not running our own summer camp program this year - we are going to an established BSA camp in North Carolina. We have, however, done exactly what you are suggesting on occasion in the past. There are pros and cons to everything, including running one's own program. As for the camp we're attending this year, our scouts chose it and they are looking forward to it.

jblake, I am unclear as to how the policy (as currently written) allows for a webelos scout to cross over as a tenderfoot. It seems to me that upon crossing over one could become a "scout" within the hour but then there's that 30 day "clock" built into the tenderfoot requirement. As we do not allow the scout to "count" his cub achievements anywhere else toward boy scouting (ie, readyman doesn't count toward T-2-1 or 1st Aid MB; aquanaut doesn't count toward 2nd class/1st class aquatics requirements or swimming MB; outdoorsman doesn't count toward T-2-1 or camping MB, etc..) then why would we do so here? If in the past the requirements were worded differently then I could understand that - but as currently written I don't see how or why a person would interpret it in the manner you suggest. I don't think this is a matter of personal opinion to be honest - it would be a rather large leap to view the requirements (again, as currently written) as sanctioning this practice. Now, should the AoL and webelos activity pin requirements and scout/tenderfoot requirements be revised to reduce the redundancy? Perhaps - but until that happens I think we need to honor them as written, which means boys do them twice: once in webelos, again as boy scouts.

In our unit I'm pretty sure the answer would be no. You aren't a boy scout until you've turned in the application and met the joining requirements (at which point you are no longer a cub scout and shouldn't be working on cub advancement any more either, right?), so how could you earn credit toward boy scout advancement prior to that point?

Another easy thought - ask his parents to supply the troop with a Mandarin-English dictionary for your troop library and make sure the librarian brings it to meetings.

Keeping in mind that advancement is only one part of scouting, perhaps this young man will not advance for a while, but he may still enjoy and benefit from being part of your troop. Let him do all that he is able to with the expectation that his ability will expand greatly once he develops basic English proficiency. In the meantime he can still make friends with other boys. I've always been amazed at how kids can overcome or ignore even very significant language barriers and still become good friends. In fact scouting may be one of relatively few venues open to him to meet kids and make friends where verbal communication isn't a huge obstacle (unlike school). So yes by all means talk with his parents and use whatever community resources are available. But encourage him (and his parents) to stick with the troop regardless of the advancement issue.

Thanks for the input everyone. We talked about this the other night and agreed that we would promote our own camp first and foremost, but that if there are new scouts who simply aren't going to go to camp with us then we'll encourage them to at least do this. The idea of attending another closer summer camp with our new scouts (or with another troop) got a cool reception mainly for logistical reasons. Beavah I understand your view. This wasn't a matter of micromanaging the SM - this was more an open discussion (including the SM) of "what are the pro's and con's?"

Mollie, AS I mentioned in the other thread on this topic (in advancement section), the current requirement is that a boy must be at least 10 and have earned Arrow of Light, or at least 10 and finished with 5th grade, or 11. Nowhere does it say he has to be 10 1/2 anymore. A 10 year old who has earned his AoL while in 4th grade could join a troop. Whether or not this would be the "right" choice depends a great deal on the boy, the troop, and the parents. But yes, he could do it.

Mollie, Current requirements are that a boy must be AT LEAST ten years old no matter what else - this is effective 5/15/04. You can find these (among other sources) at: http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank1.html Joining Requirements: 1. "Meet age requirements: Be a boy who has completed the fifth grade and be at least 10 years old, or be 11 years old, or have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old, and be under 18 years old. " I've heard of a few cases where there was a boy who had skipped a couple of grades so that his den mates crossed over when the boy in question was still only 9. Some troops would unofficially welcome such a boy regardless of the above requirements (which I believe to be a bad strategy simply from an insurance perspective), while others would ask him to wait until he was 10. My opinion is that very few 9 year olds are emotionally or physically mature enough to handle many of the things boy scouts do. Keeping in mind that boy scouts range from 10-17, the gap between a typical cross-over (usually closer to 11) and a 17 year old is tough enough without adding in an additional year's difference. There's less adult supervision in boy scouts than cubs too so this age/maturity difference may be more noticeable without adults to "referee" scout behavior at all times. In most cases I don't think you'd be doing a boy a favor by pushing him into this setting at such an early age when he may be ill-prepared, thus increasing the chance that he will drop out. As for grade - we have boys who have been held back in school but elected to continue with their age-peers in scouting. So we'll have a couple of boys who are 10 or 11 and finishing 4th grade, who have earned their AoL, crossing into the troop this year. That's less of an issue in my mind because they will be less likely to be physically or emotionally behind their age-peers in a scouting context, where a boy's school grade isn't that important. And it is specifically allowed for in the joining requirements.

Often times there are support networks available for people who adopt children from another country/culture. Ask the parents if they are part of such a network and if so, whether there is anyone in that group who would help with some language issues on a short-term basis. Also find out from the parents what the local school is doing to help this boy. If his English is so weak that he can't do these basic things in a scout meeting, he is probably getting some kind of support services at school. While the school may not be able/willing to provide those services outside of school hours, there might be a contact person who could help the family identify other community-based resources. Also, do you have a university in your area? Contact them to find out if they have a Mandarin program and/or whether there might be some qualified international students who would be willing to come by and help out for a little while. If you are working with university students - a home cooked dinner thrown in as an incentive goes a long way! Good luck! And don't forget to view this boy as a resource too - he has a lot to learn about you and about American culture but the other boys can learn a lot from him as well.

Oh goodness yes - what Fgoodwin says! These people seem to exist in every district. Do they not get out enough to socialize or what?! Buy an egg timer if you have to but assert/maintain control over this!

Michelle I don't think you missed anything. Looking at the USScouts site re: wolf and bear electives, I notice that the bear section specifically indicates that one may count unused portions of the bear achievements as electives, and that this is different from what happens in previous ranks. For wolf, meanwhile, it simply discusses the electives listed in the back of the wolf book. I notice that both the wolf and bear elective discussions were updated in April 2006 so I have every reason to believe this is accurate (though of course the most current book is the final word on the subject). Here's the link to the bear elective coverage on the USScouts website: http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/beararrow.html And here's the wolf elective link: http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/wolfarrow.html If in doubt, contact your district's cub training chairperson and ask them. This assumes, of course, that they are a good resource and have kept current on these matters!

We switched from pow wow to university of scouting a few years back. It is a relatively successful event and it helps that now we are drawing from all aspects of the scouting program and not just cub leaders in terms of attendance. Still, it is a bit of an "in-group" thing. It would help if we had more active UCs to get the word out to pack leaders, who often don't even know it exists until their third or fourth year in cubbing. All of our neighboring councils have also made the switch. The only unfortunate thing is that they all offer their UoS on the same day every year! I admit I don't understand this - would rather see them staggered so a person might attend more than one if interested (we're not that far apart, geographically speaking) or have some options if the date doesn't work (as has been my case for the last 2-3 years). As for the crystal radio - I've never been able to get those kits to work, would love to have someone lead a class around here. Want to do a traveling show Owl?

"Make it punctual and make it count and don't let it drag on." Amen Sister! Let me second that one! Most cub leaders around here have young children at home to tend to. Some are even paying a babysitter for the "privilege" of attending RT. Respect that. If you aren't already doing this, separate your cub and troop RT for at least the substantive part of the night (and I'd argue, for the whole night!). Can't tell you how annoying it can be to listen to a bunch of people drone on (while I'm paying a babysitter) about some upcoming event that my own cubs won't be able to attend for another 2-5-8 years! Similarly I'm sure most troop leaders don't have all that much interest anymore in planning den meetings, etc.. We saw a big jump in attendance when we broke these off into separate meetings. Keep it hands on when possible. For ex: around here everybody does pinewood derbies, hardly anyone does regattas. We did a simplified version of a regatta (complete with building and racing) at a RT one time - big hit - adults loved doing it and when they saw how easy it could be, took it home to their packs. Speakers are nice but fast, easy, fun, hands on tips are more likely to draw people in and keep them coming back. Publish the topic in advance. If nothing else it shows you've thought about what you are presenting and therefore are a little bit less likely to waste their time. Beyond that - ask them why they aren't coming/what they would like to see. Every area has its own challenges and it is hard to "fix" something when you don't know what's broken about it. Get your UCs (if they exist) to help you feel out their packs on this. And once you determine a plan, stick with it for a bit because it takes a while for word of mouth to spread, esp. if RT has a bad reputation among your cub leaders right now.

Here's another take on the subject. If you have a group of new scouts who, for whatever reason, simply are not going to attend traditional BSA summer camp with the troop and your other options were as follows, what would you pick? 1) Do nothing and pick up with these new scouts again in September. 2) Encourage these scouts to attend the council-run T-2-1 program as outlined previously in this thread. 3) Run your own late summer tenderfoot/2nd Cl-focused long weekend campout. 4) Encourage these scouts to attend a BSA camp closer to home, without the troop, either as provos or as a very small troop contingent, effectively sending your troop to two separate BSA camps. The first option strikes me as the worst of the bunch (there are downsides to the others too, I realize) but it is advocated - forcefully - by some in our troop as a way of getting the point across that we are a unified group and we don't go off on separate excursions for convenience sake - either go with the troop or don't go. I admit I'm struggling to understand this approach. Does anyone here subscribe to that view?

Yes, quality is one of the big concerns and I share it. Since this is a brand new program there's no track record here. The literature that's available so far indicates that nothing will be signed off at camp - but a list of "covered" activities will be provided so the participants can go back to their home troops and demonstrate their new-found skill & knowledge to their SM for his/her approval. I think we can head off some unrealistic expectations within the troop with some careful discussion though. (you're not coming home w/ 1st Cl after 3 days!) OK so I'm compiling a list of things we need to know before deciding whether to promote this program. Thus far I have: 1) How many scouts/what's the enrollment cap? 2) Who is staffing and what's the expected staff:scout ratio? 3) Will scouts be broken into patrol-sized groups or taught in groups of 20-30 or what? 4) What will the daily schedule be? 5) What role does/can troop youth leadership play/are they welcome or expected to attend? 6) What role would attending parents play/how will you keep them from hovering too much over their kid during the day? (ie, how is this different from Webelos II resident camp?) 7) Why send them here rather than to a full-week first-year program at a nearby (though Out of Council) summer camp instead? 8) What specific T-2-1 skills will be included or excluded? What other things would people add to this list?

Hi Eamonn, thanks for your quick response. We are having a committee meeting tomorrow night where I expect/hope this topic will come up again. Last year it wasn't a problem because we were only a couple hours from home but the year before when the troop went to yellowstone (also the year my son joined) I know there were several first year parents, myself included, who said no way. (In our case we already had a family vacation planned for that week but I'd have said no anyway). In that case, the troop did absolutely nothing for the new scouts who weren't going with them, which irritated me no end. (we sent our son to a nearby camp as a provo scout but got no help or support from the troop for this - in fact several of the adults seemed quite annoyed by our choice and to this day don't understand it) So I understand where these new parents are coming from. On the other hand, the fact that we stretch and go on these long distance trips is one thing that draws people to our troop to start with! And the older boys never get "bored" of summer camp either. A couple of quick follow-up questions 1) with your option 3 did you mean that we should consider doing our own T21 summer camp program? I'm not clear there. 2) If you were the SM, would you be ok with not accompanying the new scouts to the council T-2-1 program? It would be an awful lot to ask of the SM to do both summer camps. Most of our most-experienced leaders are going to Bonner/Pamlico but we have a fair number of well-trained, just less experienced folks, who aren't going to Bonner, who might be willing & able to do this instead. I guess I'm one of those. About Pamlico - I hope your ship gets it together! I hear it fills up fairly quickly. It looks like a fantastic program. Are you/they doing the sailing school or the sea kayaking trek? We've got a few boys in each of these programs while our other guys are at Bonner. They're really looking forward to it.

I think it may have to do with how councils report their numbers - using year end tallies. Consequently, the #s will be higher if recharter occurs after December because (at least, around here) that means packs are still carrying the webelos II boys who crossed over last Feb/March/April on their pack roster in December. Those boys typically aren't removed until the following year's rechartering. One year, when our pack refused to do it that way any longer, we caused a good deal of consternation. Doing recharter in Jan/Feb also allows for all the boys you pick up at round up plus any few who straggle in thereafter to be counted. Around here starting in mid Nov and running through late Dec. there is always a big push to get those last few boys signed up before year-end so that district and council can meet their recruiting goals - and it really is usually a matter of getting the additional 5-20 boys throughout the entire district or sometimes council, that makes the difference for them so stretching it to the last minute makes sense (in this view).

I haven't seen this in a confrontational manner and I suspect that most of the time, those who agree to be beneficiaries of Eagle projects are also pretty willing to work with kids in a friendly way. That said, I do know at least one case where the boy in question *thought* he was finished, only to find that the head of the group he was working for didn't quite think so. They had a friendly sit down (I think the SM might have been there too but I can't recall) in which the agency head explained his remaining concerns and asked the boy to address them - which he did, to everyone's satisfaction. It was one of those "oh, I didn't realize" kinds of moments for the boy and it worked out just fine. Actually I think it made the project more effective in terms of teaching leadership because the boy was really held accountable for his results and he had to understand that people with other perspectives than his own would be looking at the results with a critical eye too.

Our council does not run a traditional boy scout summer camp so troops in our area have to go out of council every year. Consequently our troop has developed a tradition of going to a nearby OOC camp one year and then going out of state for camp in opposite years. Within a certain realm of possibility (Alaska is out) our scouts choose the camp. This year we are going to what looks like a really excellent camp in NC (Camp Bonner/Pamlico Sea Base), half way across the country from us, and practically all of our current scouts have signed up to attend. Although we've never been there, I've been impressed so far with how well organized they are, and I've only gotten good reviews (except for the black flies issue!) from others who have attended. We expect to get between 7-10 new scout cross-overs. Camp Bonner runs what looks like a pretty solid first year program. We typically have a pretty high boy:leader ratio (probably will be along hte lines of 3:1 this summer) and of course new parents are welcome to attend too, as registered leaders. But it is a 10 day trip and several of these parents have already expressed concern about sending their boys so far away on their first summer camp trip (most of these boys have never been away from home longer than a weekend). They've said they would feel better if they were able to attend too, but they can't be gone for so long from home/other children, work, etc.. Also, while we do our best to contain costs, it is about $100 more expensive to go across country than to stay in state (gas, food, camping, sight seeing). We do offer a spring fundraiser but it is still an expensive trip - worth it, but expensive. So several of these new parents are voicing a lot of reluctance about sending their boys with us. Of course they may change their minds over the next few months! But do you have suggestions about how to convince reluctant parents that this is a good idea? Alternately, for the first time this summer, our council will run what is being billed as a T-2-1 event at one of our council camp properties about an hour from where we live. This is supposed to be a 4 night,3 day sleepover event that focuses on 1st cl/1st year skills. No merit badges will be offered and it isn't really supposed to be a replacement to summer camp, just a supplement. Parents are welcome but not required to attend with their boy. Meals are dining-hall style. It is unclear whether additional troop leaders are expected/required. Camp staff if provided by council. Cost is about a third of what it will be for us to go to Camp Bonner this year. Does anybody have experience with this sort of program? If you had boys who absolutely were not going to summer camp with you, would you encourage them to at least do this? We all hear about how going to camp is one of the biggest indicators of who will stay and who will drop out of scouting in that first year. Some objections I've already heard to the above - tell me how you feel about these - 1) it would effectively split the troop rather than encouraging unity and a sense of belonging; 2) it would be hard on troop leadership to attend both traditional camp and this camp; 3) no guarantee of quality - might be more like a "merit badge day" in terms of depth of coverage; 4) knowledge of this alternative might push parents who were undecided to NOT send their kids to camp with the troop and to do this program instead; and 5) without merit badges, it might not be "fun" for the boys. I don't have an opinion yet and I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the above but as they've been quite vocally expressed by a few different people in our troop (and other local troops) I'm curious about how you might view all of this. Thanks for your input!

Around here we now do all rechartering on line so it can be started a bit earlier (December - due Feb). But when we were still doing it with the packets as Eamonn describes, it wasn't uncommon to get the packet with about 3-4 weeks to get it all filled out. Boys' Life - at the cub age (esp Tiger/Wolf) many boys will need a parent or other person to read some of it with them to get them excited. In some cases due to their reading level, in some cases just to spread the enthusiasm about reading. Or build it into your den/pack meetings in some manner (have them tell what their favorite story was or share a joke or game from the back part, have a reading contest and hand out a BL rocker patch or other book-related special patch to boys who participate, etc.). When all else fails, the goofy jokes almost always get their attention even if they don't read the articles. Take a look at the parents too. Encourage them to view reading with their child (whatever age) as both a fun and even a powerful experience.

Thanks for the input folks. I just wasn't sure whether the Troop master records would be viewed as sufficient for advancement. I'll suggest he talk to the SM and the advancement chair about it.

Maybe it is biased but is it also true? Many or most of the troops I know do a pretty good job of respecting their environment. On the other hand, I have run across troops who were just a walking disaster. One time (with our webelos den) we camped near a troop that, in the middle of the night, started hacking at live trees with their axes, for no good reason. They did some serious damage. The attitude of the adults in charge of the troop at that event was "boys will be boys." Dumb troop - they were camped literally right next to their troop trailer which displayed all of their identifying info. We contacted the troop, the council, the CO, and the park ranger (in writing) to let them know about this troop's awful behavior. Worse, the whole purpose of our webelos camp was to teach basic LNT principles! Lots of people do dumb things outdoors. Some of them, unfortunately, will be boy scouts, who OUGHT to know better. I think that's what makes these stories so appealing to the media. So long as the media also runs stories about the good things we do (and they do - witness various stories over the years about boy scouts saving people - witness the very public presence of scouts at the Ford funeral, which was given a lot of media coverage) then I'm not too worried about bias. I'm more concerned about policing our own to try to reduce the number of "knuckleheads" in the ranks.

I like the idea of boys for T-2-1 having an instructor conference first to ensure they actually know and remember the skills. I also like the idea of including a more advanced scout on the BOR - perhaps the SPL/ASPL. My observation (just our troop) is that ASPLS don't seem to be doing much anyway. Give them a voice here. I wouldn't make up the entire board with scouts though. Then you get into the same issues of oversight and accountability that I sometimes see when we allow more advanced scouts to sign the books. Some take this more seriously than others. Some do play favorites, or at least are a lot harder on the couple of kids in the troop who are not so well liked and maybe have trouble fitting in. Yes, a good SM should/could keep an eye out for this but it seems to invite more difficulty, whereas having a mix of adults and higher-ranked scouts would provide the troop leadership with input while also avoiding these kinds of problems. I think any discussion of scout spirit would benefit greatly from the presences of the troop youth leadership on the BOR. How can BOR members - many of whom don't camp or sometimes even attend troop meetings regularly, really know if there are scout spirit issues? Maybe if the scout himself admits to such, but having the SPL/ASPL or other troop leadership who camp regularly with the scout be involved would help here. Not over-riding the SM decision, but having that conversation in a more serious way at the BOR is what I mean here. My "ideal" BOR would always, always start with the Scout Oath and Law. There's debate about this I know. But I think this is a reasonable request and sets the tone. We're here to talk about (among other things) how the boy understands those two items in his daily life. At an Eagle BOR recently I got told by one of our district advancement folks that we shouldn't be doing that because it might scare the boy. Hmm, then maybe the boy isn't quite ready for Eagle rank if he's that easily thrown by a request to repeat something he has been repeating weekly (or more) for several years. Note that I'm not of the opinion that a boy who "flubs" it should automatically be rejected for advancement. Give him opportunities to get back on track, maybe (esp at lower ranks) even start out saying it with him to jump start him. Beyond that, my "ideal" BOR would consist of adults who were well-trained to do a BOR and who would get beyond the "fluff" questions. I sat on a Life board a little while ago that I found so unsatisfactory. One member wanted to just talk about how to get to Eagle (some advising is great but this boy's promotion to Life was far from guaranteed so it seemed a little out of place to focus so heavily on Eagle). One threw softball after softball to a young man who needs to have some hard questions directed at him based on his apparent lack of concern about his leadership role and recent behavioral issues. I don't think this is uncommon and it sometimes stems from lack of knowledge about how to conduct a good BOR. Along those lines - I think everyone who is a member of a BOR should serve as an observer on a few BORs first to get a feel for the process. Finally, my "ideal" BOR would conclude by having the BOR chair and the SM sit down for a five minute summary (after the decision about advancement had been made and communicated to the boy). What strengths and weaknesses came out in the BOR, regarding the program? There has to be good communication back to the SM in order for the BOR-as-program-review to work. I realize the last two (good BOR training and communication w/ SM) of these CAN happen now, under the current system. My guess is that they seldom do in many troops though, or else we wouldn't have so many discussions of BORs on this forum. I know I see these as weak areas in my own son's troop. It is difficult to change status quo though, so that's why I'm including these on my "ideal" wish list.

My dear son has lost his scout book. He is at tenderfoot rank with most of his second class and some of his first class requirements signed off, where ever the book has gone. Our original agreement when he started boy scouting was that I would supply him with the basic items but that he needed to purchase replacements for anything he lost or ruined due to mistreatment (ie, equipment). So he isn't getting a new book until he scrounges a few bucks together, since he spent all of his cash over the holidays. (Hmm, looks like he'll be doing some extra work around the house for a bit. I think I need some windows washed...the floors mopped....what else?....) In the meantime there's a Court of Honor coming up and he really was hoping to make 2nd class before then. So my question: does he have to have his book in order to do so? The advancement chair has a record of most of his sign offs in troopmaster.

Recruiting has its up and down years. So this year is looking a little small but then you've identified 7 current Webelos I boys in the two packs you have ties with, who will be eligible to join your troop next year. Also I don't know if it is an option but maybe you could do a recruiting talk in the 5th grade class at the private school. If they only have one W II scout then there's an untapped market there (unless all the other 5th graders are girls!).