Lisabob

Ah geez, if this works I want to know! We have a cook off coming up in a couple of months... Thank you, for a good laugh today, just thinking about the incredulous stares this could attract.

Gern, I hear your frustration. You asked if it is typical and I think the answer is that, while not too common, it isn''t unheard of either for the reasons Kudu spells out. Let me add this: I wish parents would take it with a grain of salt when their kid gets home from camp and says "I didn''t like it and this or that awful thing happened." I''ve noticed with my own child that a shower, a hot meal, and an hour of sleep do wonders for his assessment of the event in question. I''m not saying ignore it if they have negative comments, but sometimes I''ve noticed the younger guys are so overwhelmed (and over tired) that they just need a little time to process things before acting on their experiences.

I''m not sure there is a hard and fast rule here, because some MB activities are pretty simple. I don''t need two deep leadership to work with a scout on the reading merit badge at the library, you know? But I''m in agreement with insanescouter, that a 10 mile hike is a situation where 2 deep leadership makes a lot of sense for many reasons. Are you sure there''s no other adult in the troop who would go along?

I notice that some of this happens when their parents do not understand the nature of the program. If a scout goes home from a camp out grumbling to mom and dad about being bullied into doing the dishes or having been assigned "all the work" or something, and if mom & dad don''t understand the notion of boy leadership and haven''t ever heard of duty rosters, then it is more likely that the parent will become alarmed. Some of these boys probably are NOT used to doing any chores/pitching in, and for them it might be a rude shock. But a lot of times, a bit of pre-emptive discussion with parents about how the work load is divided and who is in charge (within reason) may be all that''s needed. THen the parent can tell their own kid "tough luck, just do it" when they complain about washing dishes and whatnot.

The pack my son was in was chartered by a PTO. This can work, but the drawback we found was that there was a lot of turnover, both in PTO and Cub Pack leadership, as kids moved on from that elementary school. It doesn''t take long before you find yourself in a situation where nobody on the PTO knows anything about the charter that they signed. So regular communication is even more important than with a more long-term operation like a church or civic organization. But sure, PTOs can be great COs. LC, I''m glad to hear that this is probably going to work for you.

Beardad, obviously I don''t know what the local story is in your district. But your pack''s perception that they''re being slighted by the DE/district *could* be a matter of lack of a good PR effort on the pack''s part. In my area, for example, our district commissioner is also the editor in chief of a local newspaper. He''s made it clear that he''ll find room for scouting stories whenever possible, all units have to do is feed him information. Most don''t do so, and then a few have gotten mad when his paper hasn''t covered "their" event. Go figure. So, next time your pack does something fun/interesting/neat, take a photo, write up a blurb, and email it to your DE with a quick, positive note.

I don''t think you should combine the Tiger den with another den. Too many program differences, and 1st graders have the attention spans of gnats. Three things to consider: 1) Since parents have to be there anyway, it isn''t a time commitment issue on their part - it is more that they don''t know what they''re getting in for and probably are leery about jumping in with both feet as a result. (see #3 below) 2) There''s no reason it has to be on Tuesdays from 6-7 if that doesn''t work for the people in the den. Let them come up with a mutually agreeable time and location, as long as it isn''t the local tavern! 3) The "there won''t be a program unless you lead it" line is true. However, depending on the group, it can be over-done and scare them off. Remember that they have been part of this program for less than an hour and already they''re being pushed into running it! Some people will naturally step up and say sure, but a lot will hang back, especially if it is a young group of parents (1st/only child) without much experience in civic organizations. They''re just not used to volunteering yet. So balance that with explaining that being a Tiger leader is not rocket science, talking about all the resources available to them in specifics, not generally (maybe show them program helps, den meeting in a box, Tiger Den Leader book). Let them know they can come to you (or someone specific - CM? previous, good, Tiger DL?) if they need help with den meeting ideas and planning. Maybe offer to plan out the first couple of meetings with them to get them started. Make sure they understand that every parent is going to be involved so that even the one who steps forward isn''t the lone victim...er, volunteer. As for your would-be bear leader, naw, don''t go there with this repeat offender. You may need to do some quiet asking to get another DL - remember, it is usually more productive to ask someone individually and face to face, rather than a general plea to a group. This is even more true if you know these people. So target the one(s) you think would be the best leaders and take him/her out for coffee. Let us know what happens and good luck!

Thanks for everyone''s responses. I agree with scoutldr that this is a matter of adults dropping the ball and also not really the membership committee''s turf. On the other hand, we (membership folks) have been sounding the alarm bell on this unit for close to 2 years and it seems we''re the only ones who notice. The DE is aware - he and I and others have had several conversations about this. One would have thought that, if the commissioners were capable of acting, they would have by now. Instead, it keeps coming back to those of us on the membership committee, both formally and informally (several of us know people who are/were involved with this pack). I admit disappointment that there doesn''t seem to be a district-wide plan in place to help struggling units - it is just a bunch of hand wringing as they fade and fold. And this pack should be strong. It is the only one that recruits actively in the rather large elem. school that serves as its base, and in previous/recent years it has done great - so it is really a matter of getting the word out, offering a decent program and "they will come." While there are a bunch of other packs in the town, none of them are under 20 members right now and nearly all of them draw from (other) specific schools, so it isn''t like there''s too much competition. As for the CO, this pack shares the same CO as the troop my son is in - this is not a group that is likely to actively support anything, sad to say (yet they''re adamant that they wish to remain CO for reasons of historical pride). I like the idea of generating a list of previous active leaders and putting out the word - this is something I was thinking anyway, since several adults in our troop were once associated with that pack. That, at least, is something membership ought to be able to do within reason. Interestingly enough, we have very few seriously weak packs and troops in our district (crews are another story - very few of those too, but they''re all really weak). So bringing district resources to bear maybe isn''t as draining as it might be in a district with more problem units. And I think it wouldn''t take that much, really, to get this one back on its feet again - I just haven''t seen anybody actually DO it yet!

I''m having the same problem Ed mentions and I''m using Firefox so it isn''t a browser thing. Ed, if you use the "topics in the last 24 hours" link, that should be working (at least, it is for me).

Hi folks, I could use your input on this one. We have a pack in our town that has historically been extremely successful, and that also has "fed" our troop in the past, though not for a few years now. It recruits from one of the larger elementary schools in town so it has a natural pool of new scouts. In the last two years the pack has struggled due to lack of adult leadership. The (former?) CM ended up working a shift that prevented him from attending any pack meetings, yet he didn''t/wouldn''t resign. His son is a W II this year but has already done everything for his AoL and is just waiting to be able to cross over at this point. The other den leaders vanished, or withered away due to lack of support. The CC was one of the only active people but he''s got a boatload of kids of his own and has apparently vanished now too. The pack''s CO is oblivious and they apparently do not have a UC (we don''t have a strong UC corp in our area). The pack has no plans to do any recruiting of scouts or leaders and seems to have unofficially collapsed. I''m on our district membership committee, which is how I know all of this. As such, it is not in our interest to see this pack die. This isn''t just a numbers game either - two years ago, this pack had 40+ boys and even last year, amid turmoil, they had 20 or so. What, if anything, is it reasonable for me and the other members of the district membership committee to DO here? Most of the things I''ve thought of involve us (membership folks) coming in and running the pack in more, or less, active ways and while honestly, I like cub scouts a lot, I''m not so sure this is the right thing to do. We have a district membership meeting on Monday night and I''d like to go in armed with some tangible ideas. What are your thoughts?

Hi folks, I could use your input on this one. We have a pack in our town that has historically been extremely successful, and that also has "fed" our troop in the past, though not for a few years now. It recruits from one of the larger elementary schools in town so it has a natural pool of new scouts. In the last two years the pack has struggled due to lack of adult leadership. The (former?) CM ended up working a shift that prevented him from attending any pack meetings, yet he didn''t/wouldn''t resign. His son is a W II this year but has already done everything for his AoL and is just waiting to be able to cross over at this point. The other den leaders vanished, or withered away due to lack of support. The CC was one of the only active people but he''s got a boatload of kids of his own and has apparently vanished now too. The pack''s CO is oblivious and they apparently do not have a UC (we don''t have a strong UC corp in our area). The pack has no plans to do any recruiting of scouts or leaders and seems to have unofficially collapsed. I''m on our district membership committee, which is how I know all of this. As such, it is not in our interest to see this pack die. This isn''t just a numbers game either - two years ago, this pack had 40+ boys and even last year, amid turmoil, they had 20 or so. What, if anything, is it reasonable for me and the other members of the district membership committee to DO here? Most of the things I''ve thought of involve us (membership folks) coming in and running the pack in more, or less, active ways and while honestly, I like cub scouts a lot, I''m not so sure this is the right thing to do. We have a district membership meeting on Monday night and I''d like to go in armed with some tangible ideas. What are your thoughts?

The new SM in my son's troop issued a challenge to all the patrols to try to earn this honor. We'll see...my son (a newly elected PL) is excited about it, though he's a little worried about the 2 members in his patrol whose attendance is sporadic. I'm really happy to see the patrols work toward this though!

Best reason I can think of NOT to go that route is, we're running out of room on the shirt! Especially on the littler guys, who don't have all that much chest space to work with. Tiger, Wolf and Bear arrow points all together might not fit on those guys. But, I get your point that they should be somehow tied in to the existing recognition program for cub scouts.

Yes it excludes public schools. Others can cite specific documents to back this up (I know they exist but don't recall the exact citation). However, since the late 90s, BSA National has sought to end charter agreements with public schools and other government-run groups, due to issues with regard to some of the BSAs exclusionary policies (atheists and gay leaders). While the courts have ruled that the BSA, as a private organization, has the right to establish these membership criteria, having public schools - which are part of the government - charter such a group raises Constitutional problems with regard to the 1st and 14th amendments. Hence, the BSA has migrated units away from charters with public schools. I hope that's a pretty fair summary, but of course others are free to add or clarify if they feel the need - this can be a touchy topic for some (check out the "Issues and Politics" forum and you'll see what I mean). Bottom line is, public schools should NOT be considered as charter partners for your new cub pack, and it is quite unlikely that your BSA council professionals would give their stamp of approval to such a move, even if you did try to proceed in that direction on your own.

Hi LC, Not if it is a public school. Private schools are ok. You might try local service clubs (Elks, Lions, Rotary, VFW, American Legion, etc.) or local churches, mosques, synagogues, etc.. Your district executive ought to be able to help you identify likely charter partners in your area as well. Good luck to you!

I don't see your District person's solution as viable. It will cause more bad blood than it alleviates, when people are told that they can't sell in the sub they live in, or where grandma lives, or whatever. And it raises possibilities for all sorts of rule mongering in the worst sense. Is there gonna be a popcorn police squad out monitoring which boys are in which areas? Oh wait, I know, I'll just buy some extra unit #s and swap them out for the ones I'm "supposed" to have in order to sell in my neighborhood this year. Sheesh. This is micromanagement on the district person's part and it ain't gonna work. I live in a small-ish (@40k people) town with about 10 packs and 3 troops. This year EVERYONE is selling popcorn. Sigh. We do not divide up neighborhoods and never have. But in the past we HAVE coordinated with other units to avoid overlapping or directly competing show & sells at local stores. That makes sense but it doesn't require a district mandate to do it. Tell your district person no. But then also do what you can to work out a reasonable solution or at least have an adult conversation with the leaders of the other units who are apparently complaining. Maybe even offer to share with them the "secret" of your successes in the past! Perhaps they just don't have anyone in a position to organize and promote their own sale, and could use a few pointers.

Hey Its Me, hey Ed, you're in luck! I've got some popcorn right here... (pop! pop!) My son's troop has decided to sell the dreaded popcorn this year, for the first time in several years! I'll ship ya a box of butter/butter light...all for the low, low price of...what was it now? (rummaging for order form) (yech, after years of popcorn kernalling for the pack, I have come to hate the stuff! The fact that his troop historically hasn't sold popcorn was a big draw! Sorry there standerson - back to topic now.

Boy I've gotten an earful about this too. Seems like it was worse in 6th grade than 7th - all that transitioning to middle school and not being a "little kid" anymore that comes with 6th grade around here seems to play into the problem too. Then too, when my son was being teased at school one day it helped enormously that a) he could respond with a litany of super-cool activities the troop had recently done that other boys would probably never get to do, and b) one of the well-liked, "manly-man" male teachers piped up one time and said something like "hey, I was a scout and scouts are definitely NOT gay." Which reminds me, I gotta remember to get that guy signed up as a MBC! The supreme irony for me was that one of the boys who has teased him most about scouts was in the same cub scout den as my son for 5 years! Funny that CNY's son had a similar interaction with a boy who was actually still in the program. Sigh. Why boys are so worried about being perceived as "gay"...and why scouts seems to be an easy target for this off-base critique anyway...I don't buy that it's all that male bonding stuff or we'd be hearing about how the football team is "gay" too. At a different level - we (district membership) are running a community wide open house in a couple of weeks where all the local troops will be participating, trying to get a few boys to check it out. I don't have too many illusions about recruiting middle school aged boys for exactly this reason, but we'll see what happens.

John I don't think you need to go that far even, in order to say why this is justifiably a public concern. I have a teen aged son. I don't want to be worried that if he needs to use a public restroom in the airport that he might walk in on *that* behavior. And apparently this activity isn't all that uncommon in certain locations, the Minneapolis airport being among those. The police were doing stake outs in there because of public complaints, and I believe I read that they had caught something like 40 men over a period of about a month. Now, sure, Craig did not engage in the behavior in question this time - but only because he propositioned a cop and got caught first. Now as for whether he should resign? OK Gern, I can see your point I suppose, though I'm sure he's under enormous pressure from his own party to just "go away" as quickly and quietly as is still possible. And I'm pretty sure he'd have lost re-election all on his own in 2008 anyway. But once you announce that you are going to resign, you can't un-resign and expect to be taken seriously.

The talk this morning/last night is that Craig is now reconsidering his options and might not resign after all. Does anyone seriously think he has a chance in, well you know, of pulling that off? Even if he did, he's been removed (by his own party leaders) from all positions of power and influence in the Senate. Regardless of whether you think he ought to have announced that he was resigning in the first place, my take is that once he did, going back and having a do-over was off the table.

Congrats there Brent! I hope you have a great first year. Keep us posted, will you? I'd love to see an occasional thread on building a new troop from the ground up. Its Me, obviously I don't know your situation. I will say just one thing though (ha, as if I'm any good at keeping it short!). Like you, I was pretty involved with my son's webelos den (husband and I were DLs) and I thought I'd done a thorough job of researching area troops. But the first year my son was in his troop, I went from thinking they were fantastic to being seriously disillusioned, and then back to what was probably a more realistic, reasonably happy, medium. Now, they made some changes in how they handled their first year scouts, which went a long way toward my improved perceptions. But also, I had a better basis for judgment and understanding of the program after the first year. So sure, if it really is that bad, you might as well make the jump. But then, you might want to take a step back and consider whether some of this is just the (I think fairly normal?) process of getting to know a troop - any troop - warts and all. Of course, your mileage may vary.

I want to thank everyone here for your responses; they have been very helpful to me. We had our first meeting of the year last night and this young man was there, enthusiastic as ever to be back doing "scout stuff." Although I'm pretty sure I am in the minority, I do genuinely like this young man and especially his zest for life. He doesn't do things halfway, that's for sure. We also have a new SM this year, someone who has some personal experience working with kids with disabilities and who is also a highly organized type with good communication skills. I noted that he, the two previous SMs (also both good people, each with his own skill set to bring to bear), and the CC sat down for a while last night with this boy's mom. So I am hoping that they had a chance to talk openly and that it was a positive interaction for all involved. I'm pretty sure the opportunity will arise to share some of your suggestions here with the rest of the adult leaders too.

This summer our troop traveled from MI to NC for summer camp, and we were looking at DC as a possible stopping point along the way. Although we ultimately ended up stopping elsewhere (US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD - rated "very cool" by boys and adults alike), I received many excellent suggestions from folks on this site regarding places to go in DC. You might want to check out this thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=145187#id_145187

Give yourself and those boys a big pat on the back, gwd. It sounds like they are really getting the hang of things and enjoying it too. I've appreciated reading about your troop over the last couple of years and I hope you'll continue to post as the rebuilding saga unfolds.

There are several large Pow Wows in MI every year and I know many scout groups visit. But I don't know of anything with the title you suggest. There's this one, coming up in a few weeks, that specifically includes/invites Scouts and is being held at a Scout camp in Southern MI: Wood Lake Pow Wow #20 http://www.geocities.com/sharonv45/Powwow/powwow.html Also, I don't know if it will be helpful to you, but here's a link to a National Pow Wow calendar that includes a great many events, including several upcoming events in FL. http://www.manataka.org/page828.html If you do find something else, I hope you'll let us know!