Lisabob

You guys ROCK! Congrats to you Eagle76 (and Carey again!). I''m really glad you went through it and found it to be useful. And even though you''re a Bear, Carey, can we still let him lumber over to the BobWhites'' nest for a friendly chat? Lisa''bob A good old BobWhite too!

GAHillBilly, What you wrote in response to me is exactly what I think your district and council training chairs need to hear. Constructive means that it gives them something to work from (as opposed to "this training just stunk"). Constructive doesn''t have to be positive. In your case, I can sympathize with your inability to find anything positive to say!

Well I can give you two quick DON''Ts: When a unit that hasn''t seen its commissioner in living memory falls upon hard times...DON''T parachute in a squadron of unit-commissioner-war-hero types who will then waste countless hours regaling the struggling unit leaders with pointless war stories that have no bearing on the problems the unit is facing! Happened in our pack. I had no idea who or what a unit commish was at the time, and after that experience, I didn''t want to ever see them again either. When a unit is having problems, DON''T go in guns blazing and tell them to either do it your way or else. Or else....what? UCs don''t have any power in that situation, except to exacerbate and annoy. The fellow who did that (again, in our pack) was not welcome thereafter. On the good side - I know a bunch of really excellent UCs and I just went to Commissioners College a couple weekends ago to get my bachelor of UC, where I met some great people who no doubt do a fine job for the units they serve. I hope to be one of them soon, myself.

I can''t see this working where we are. Part of the problem is the lack of quality in some of the trainings (see GaHillBilly''s recent post). If the training team doesn''t have a reputation for providing a good, useful product, people will find ways not to go. And I don''t know if I believe that a DE will follow through on this threat not to recharter units where the adults don''t meet the requirements. Serving as I do on our district membership committee, I think every DE I''ve met so far would have a cow if asked to agree to that. I guess they might threaten but I doubt they''d do it. And no, I don''t like this "direct contact" business either. The reality I see in the field is that most committees and ASM corps are rather fluid in their assignments and interactions with the boys. Now, the online trainings (YPT in particular) - those make some sense to me, as they are always available and of a consistent quality.

I''ve had some horrible training experiences too. And it is a shame because anybody who has been so abused is unlikely to voluntarily attend any sort of BSA training again in the future - or if they do, they''re likely to show up with a bad attitude, prepared to be angry about the enormous discourtesy and waste of time that they expect to experience. Not the way to support our units. GaHillBilly, when you''re feeling less burned by your rotten experience, it might be helpful for you to provide some constructive, written, feedback on the sessions you attended. I''m not sure that giving these to the people who did the training is the best thing, but you might want to seek out your district and council training chairs and let them know. If they''re any good at their (volunteer) jobs, they''ll take your complaints seriously and hopefully start making some improvements in the quality of training they are offering.

Hurray! That''s great news and I''m sure you are already looking forward to future ways to use your WB talents and skills. Way to go purcelce!

Hi Volker, I think it depends a bit on the troop. My son''s troop has about 10 registered ASMs and an assortment of committee members, some of whom camp and some who do not. So on a given outing there are typically 6-10 adults and anywhere from 15-50 boys. Non-registered parents are allowed to come but usually do not (and if they do, they typically end up as an ASM pretty quickly). But we''re a big group and I think most troops have fewer involved adults to juggle. In some respects I agree with you and I don''t like to see as many adults as boys - this isn''t an adult camping club we''re running here. However, I do think it is helpful for the adults to understand the program if they see it in action at a camp out, as long as you can keep them from hovering over their own kid. And I''ve noticed that we have a few ASMs and committee members who are guilty of that, to the point where if the adult can''t go, their boys don''t go either. Kind of a shame.

Wow! (shock and awe!) Not to hijack the thread but I have never seen a cub pack larger than about 80 boys, and that was really difficult to pull off. How do you guys do it with 120-150 boys?! Hats off to you that you''re able. I don''t think I could do that. (Back to camping...) With groups that big, a council camp might be a great place to go. Depending on your council rules, you might consider hiring/paying for a council-approved archery and bb gun range master to join you for the weekend. As I''m sure you know there are all kinds of rules about cubs and shooting sports that make it hard or impossible to do these activities off council property, yet these are always very popular activities. (If you aren''t familiar with the rules for cubs and shooting sports, do yourselves a favor and inquire early and often. Same goes for swimming or other water activities.) Our pack did a relatively simple fall camp out at a nearby state park. We put together a bunch of games for Saturday afternoon, cooked dinners with age-appropriate assistance by the boys, had a fun campfire program with each den contributing a skit or song, had a pack-wide cracker barrel (snack) and went to bed. In the morning we usually broke the boys into their dens and did some leave no trace instruction and a hike or something along those lines. Worked out well most of the time. With such a big pack you might want a sub-camp for each rank where all the Bears cook foil dinners together, all the Webelos cook something else, somewhere else, etc. You could run any games or activities as stations too, like at cub day camp. You''ll have to decide whether non-cub scout siblings (and neighbors, friends, cousins, etc.) are invited. We decided to say no - and this was practically the only activity to which they were not invited - because BALOO training says that if you have non-scout children present, you are supposed to provide age appropriate activities for them (though the emphasis in BALOO as I recall is that you really should discourage this from the start). We didn''t feel equipped to run a day care center so we just said cubs and parents/guardians only please. Most families were ok with that.

Jeffrey - my take on your closing question is this: boys in Cub Scouts suffer when ANY of their leaders refuse to take them camping, regardless of their leaders'' genders. And for the record, when I was still a cub leader, it was me (yup, a woman) and another den leader (another woman) who insisted that the pack start camping at least once a year. Up until then, this mostly-male-led pack had never camped! And we were met with great resistance, mainly from a group of dads who didn''t think their kids were "ready" or who couldn''t be bothered to take the time away from work to spend a night camping with their own kids. And over-protective dads can be every bit as hard to handle as over-protective moms (at least when I tell another mom she needs to give her boy a little space she tends to take a moment to reflect on that - I''ve not had much luck getting cub scouts'' hover-dads to back off.) Having said all of that...it seems to me that there are considerably more women involved in cub scouting who did not have any sort of scouting background as children. Many of the cub scouts'' dads were boy scouts once upon a time so they may be more comfortable with camping. And when we get to the troop level, most of the women who remain involved are people with prior outdoor experience or a strong interest in developing that experience. So it doesn''t surprise me that it is relatively harder for some cub leaders, who are often women, to pull off a pack camping experience, since they may not feel confident in their outdoor skills And don''t tell me they should just go to training - I think you''ll agree that cub leader training does very, very little to prepare adult leaders to conduct a pack campout. BALOO is nice, sure, but if that''s your first intro to camping you''d better have some experienced folks along to help you out! Based on your observation, I suggest that the "fix" is for local troops to PAY ATTENTION and build more ties to local packs. That way, if there''s a pack with leaders who are uncomfortable running pack campouts, they''ll have some better resources to draw upon - like maybe the leaders of local troops! This benefits everyone - cub leaders put on a better program with help from other knowledgeable adults, boys get to go camping, anxious parents begin to learn to let their kids try new things, and down the road, the troops get kids who aren''t afraid to sleep in a tent or use an outhouse.

We have a new SM who is doing a great job so far. He really seems to "get" scout aged boys and he has several years of experience as an ASM to draw from, so he has a good sense of the BSA program and of where our troop can improve our delivery of that program. Over the weekend while camping he and I ended up talking about how to strengthen patrol identity. There are a variety of issues here, but one thing he has decided is that he wants to have some kind of monthly patrol award. Right now he''s calling it an honor patrol award, but it needs a name-change and he is also still working on what the criteria for this ought to be. He doesn''t want to start out with the National Honor Patrol that''s in the scout handbooks. He wants something shorter term and (I think) a bit simpler. I suggested he look at some of the Green Bar sites on the web, but I think that''s more of a long-term goal and in the meantime we need some smaller steps to take. Do you have any kind of regular patrol recognition/awards in your troop besides either the National Honor Patrol or the Green Bar concept? If so, I''d appreciate hearing the details. Or, if you wanted to create a "local" patrol award for a troop that is revamping its use of the patrol method, what would be the one or two most important criteria that you''d want to see as part of that award? I can provide some detail about current patrol set-up if people want, but I didn''t want to make this post any longer than it already is. Knowing that discussion of the proper use of the patrol method can be *almost* as passionate as discussion of proper uniforming, I will add this caveat: please don''t give me long rants about how we''re "doing it all wrong" because that isn''t terribly helpful. Our troop is a perpetual work in progress and we know we''re not perfect - no need to beat it into us!

Living as I do in Michigan where our state legislature is term limited (leading to a load of inexperienced people who have little to gain from compromising since they''re only there a short time anyway), and given that after a YEAR of haggling we still don''t really have a budget in place for FY ''08 which began last week, and given that these goof balls on both sides of the political spectrum are so wound up in pointing the finger at the other guy that they simply have not done their job and passed a real budget or dealt with any of the other big, long-term, important, state-level issues on their plates... Given all of that, I am really thankful these maroons are not the ones electing my US Senators! Now if you want to make a federalism argument (as I rather expect TheScout might do), that''s one thing. But anybody who thinks their state legislature is any more pure of heart and mind than the national gov''t, needs to look a little more closely.

Several school districts in our area have adopted a similar re-structuring plan to what you describe and yes, it tended to cause some issues with packs that traditionally recruited from separate schools. Some packs chose to merge. However, many did not and instead, they hold a common round-up night at the school but they maintain their separate packs based on the neighborhoods where most of the kids live (ie, the old school boundaries). When new families come to round up, the leaders have a big map and they show the families where most of the boys from a given street/block/part of town go. They don''t force a family to join a certain pack but they''ve found it tends to work out that way because the kids already know the other boys from their own neighborhood and they are more likely to spend time together after school, etc., anyway. This seems to work for them but it does require a good relationship between pack leaderships and a willingness to MAKE it work. No fighting for boys or poaching each others'' memberships. Please keep in mind that at the end of the day, the decision to merge has to be one that people beyond the CM/CC of the packs sign on to. You have to have your chartered organizations put the pressure on your DE to make this happen. Since your COs are the PTAs and they are merging too this is probably do-able, but expect push back from the DE on it. Make sure your COs are clear on what they want to do with their packs, and why, before you start talking to the DE.

We do SPL elections once a year. Everything else is on a 6 month Oct/April schedule.

Thanks David and emb for your replies. Looks like I need to ask this one locally. I''m ok w/ more training (if that''s the answer) but the thing is, I''ve never seen unit commish training on our district or council training agenda. Maybe I just over-looked it though.

How about Angela Merkel in Germany, arguably one of the more powerful German chancellors in a good long time? But no, I don''t think Clinton can win. And while the gender issue is part of it, I think her last name is the bigger issue. Actually I like some of her ideas (though not others) but she''d be such a lightening rod and I''m so sick of that style of politics, that at least half the time I''d prefer to see her drop out of the race for the good of the country. Except...I''m not sure the other candidates (from either party) would do a better job than she would, if elected. But really, I wish both the Clintons and the Bushes would take a self-imposed moratorium from national politics for a while so we can get on with governing instead of focusing on how much one side can''t stomach the other.

eolesen, that''s great that a pack focusing on autism spectrum kids is working so well in your area. Since you mention that the pack is new and that the hope is to mainstream the kids when they are boy scout aged, let me suggest that the leaders of this pack start networking with area troops now, even if the first group of scouts to cross over are a long ways down the road. In my experience (which I admit is limited) it is actually a little easier to work with special needs scouts in packs than in troops, unless the troop is well prepared. Part of it is that the troop is more boy-led while a pack is almost entirely adult-led, and boys'' skills in working with special needs peers are typically weak to non-existent. Another part of it is that troops tend to have a less controlled atmosphere (camping in the woods for a whole weekend without mom & dad) than cub scouts (an hour at a time, usually with parents present, in a more familiar environment). I''m not saying it can''t work! But it will take some careful coordination, education, and planning, and it may also take some time for troop leaders to adjust their mindsets if they aren''t accustomed to working with special needs kids.

Ah, ok. Yes, pack trainer is a recognized position and, as someone who was registered in that position, I agree it can be really useful. What I found, though, was that while being PT gave me a sort of bully pulpit to push for all sorts of training/program improvement, it only goes as far as your group of DLs is willing to take it. So, once again, it is at least partly a matter of having a strong group of DLs to work with. I wish you good luck with it! Also, I wasn''t aware of the proscription on non-married CM/ACMs in LDS units - thanks for letting me know about that.

Sorry for the double post - I meant to ask this in my last post and forgot. Does completing a basic degree at "commissioners college" count as being "trained" as a unit commissioner? I''ve been trying to find the exact requirements online and I''m not sure whether that constitutes basic training for new commissioners or not.

Google earth is being used by human rights groups to map and track genocidal attacks and attempts at "ethnic cleansing" in places like Darfur. Just yesterday I was talking with someone who told me their group was attempting to track military crackdowns on Buddhist temples in Burma using google earth. Amazing, really.

Just an update - I went and it was a very good program, one of the better scout trainings that I''ve attended in fact. I learned a lot about what unit commissioners do (and what they aren''t really supposed to do). The staff did a nice job of presenting the material and of balancing out the needs of us newbie types vs. those who have a lifetime of experience but just hadn''t been to this particular training before. And it was really good to meet some folks from other councils in my area too.

Thinking about this idea of "pack advisor..." 1) What you are proposing may be the job of the unit commissioner. This assumes that the pack has one and that the UC is active and reasonably good at doing his/her job. If there isn''t a UC and/or the UC is a ghost, that''s a different problem. But start by finding out what the UC''s status is. 2) If you are looking for a pack position, why invent a new one? How about offering to be committee chair? Or, if the pack already has a CC, how about offering your talents as an assistant cubmaster? Does the current CM even want the job? I''ve noticed that many weak packs have a person in either the CM or CC role (or both) who doesn''t want to be there, but is only holding the fort down because no one else seems to be willing to do it instead. 3) If #2 isn''t an option - how about offering to plan one or more upcoming pack events? Pinewood derby, pack campout, etc.. Something that the CM might not have time or inclination to do, but where you could help get the pack all fired up about your one-time event. Sometimes you just need to get some momentum going. 4) Do you have a child in the pack? You mention your wife is the Wolf/Bear DL. So I''m supposing you do. But if not, be careful of being viewed as an outsider...move slowly and cultivate friendships first. 5) If your pack''s DLs (never mind the CM) haven''t been trained yet, you can provide them with 101 reasons to do so and also make sure they all (maybe via your wife) know when and where the next opportunity for training is. The best advice I can offer about having a strong pack is to cultivate strong DLs. They are the ones who will push parents in their dens to get more involved and that''s where your reserve of new pack leaders comes from. Good luck, and I hope you''ll keep us posted.

Well I had to laugh as I read this because we''ve got several boys in the exact same situation with football/scouts. Happily, the football team practices right outside the building where our troop meets. So when practice ends, the boys just march right on in, in (football) uniform, pads and all. The only complaint I''ve heard is "yuck, you stink!" directed at a couple of very sweaty boys. Maybe it helps to keep in mind that the rest of the year, these boys are typically in uniform and doing whatever they can to help their patrols. On the other hand, we have a couple of football/scouts who we never see until about mid-November when the season is over. On the whole I''d rather that they be there - out of uniform and late - than not at all.

This whole discussion of uniforming is both a source of fascination and an irritant for me, I admit. I''ve written this before, but my own views on uniforming have changed a lot in the roughly 6 years that I''ve been involved as a scouter. In general I''m not inclined to be excited about uniforms, and esp. not about the problematic scout uniforms. So for the first couple of years that I was a leader, I wouldn''t have been caught dead in more than the scout shirt. Then I went to WB and that''s really the first time I wore the full uniform. I spent a lot of time at WB getting to know people whom I came to respect and admire. We talked about what the uniform meant to them and why, even though they disliked certain aspects, they wore it with pride. I came away with a somewhat different view. When my son joined the troop he chose (a full-uniform troop) I got to know several of the adults who were/are big on uniforming, as a reflection of what scouting has done for them. And in the last three/four years we''ve graduated a handful of boys who went on to join the armed forces. They come back when they are able, to visit and lend a hand, always in uniform and with yet another perspective on why uniforming matters. And, knowing these fine young men, my views have changed some more. I still really dislike some aspects of the boy scout uniform and find it both impractical and too expensive (certain elements of it) for my preference. But I wear it correctly and with pride, as a reflection of my respect for others who serve and who wear a uniform, both in scouting and in broader society. So the meaning of the uniform has changed for me. But it took me a while to get here, and I''m an adult. I really do think it behooves us to give kids that opportunity too. Tell them they "have to" wear it and many of them will, but they''ll do it without giving it much thought. They won''t recognize it for the potent symbol that it can be; rather, they''ll recognize it as something that''s forced upon them and that they don''t like. We''ll teach them, perhaps, to choose their battles (and that this isn''t one worth choosing because they''ll "lose" for sure), but we may well fail to teach them why they ought to be proud to be seen in uniform. Surface compliance without deeper understanding is not what I hope we''re in this for.

"I really do think that youth members are far more considerate when it comes to using cell phones than adults are." BINGO. This is one of my pet peeves. Adults make all sorts of sanctimonious speeches about "kids these days" not being respectful, etc., which often comes up in the context of the cell phone issue. And then, whose cell phone is ringing away at full volume during flag lowering? And who has the nerve to answer the blasted thing and carry on a conversation??? Yup, the adults.

Generally I find that this sort of discussion is pretty fruitless, as people who want to believe something are just going to go right on believing it even when the evidence shows that they are wrong. So I''ve stayed out. But two things are bugging me with regard to this debate/discussion. 1) What the heck does all of this "prayer in public schools" stuff have to do with spiral scouts, the apparent original topic of the thread? 2) The other day I had a surprising conversation with a scout about his religious beliefs. He''d had a problem with a MBC at summer camp, who started off the session for the space exploration MB by asking each boy in the group what his religion was. This boy told the MBC he didn''t belong to any organized religious group and (according to the scout), the MBC spent most of the rest of the week picking on him for being an atheist. So the boy stopped going to the classes because he felt bad. And he wanted to know whether I thought he was really an atheist, because he wasn''t sure! As it turns out, the boy made the assumption that one could only consider oneself a member of a religion if one also accepts a literal interpretation of that religion''s sacred text, which he felt he could not do. Consequently, he didn''t know what to call himself. All of this came up when I asked the boy why he no longer seemed interested in finishing the space exploration badge! Too bad he felt unwelcome in a class on ROCKET BUILDING (not religion), because the MBC in question didn''t have the common sense to talk about religion in a more appropriate context, nor did he have the ability to engage in a more nuanced understanding of religion. Here this boy had some deep, serious questions but all he got in return was "you''re an atheist." It would have been better if the MBC had stuck to something he (presumably) knew about - like the space exploration merit badge. So, constitutional interpretation issues aside: my problem with imposing religion in diverse group settings is that it lends itself to abuse and clumsiness. It tends to result in over-simplification and an us-them mentality. If an individual wants to engage in private religious rituals of most sorts, I''m perfectly ok with that. If someone asks "what are you doing" then I think it''s appropriate to have a conversation about religious practice and beliefs. I''m all for a class on comparative world religions in middle or high school, and by the way the courts have never said that such a class is unconstitutional. But when an individual in a position of power wants to impose religious practices (and by extention, belief) on everyone else, it seems to me it causes more problems than it solves.