Lisabob

Slouchhat, if you are looking for Spiral Scouts membership requirements, these would NOT be listed on the scouting.org site because that site references only BSA programs. Spiral Scouts is not part of the BSA. (and I don't actually know what membership criteria they might have - good question!). I think part of the frustration voiced by some people in the US context stems from the fact that the BSA has a proprietary charter from the US Congress and consequently, other scouting-type groups have to be careful of not stepping on BSA's monopolistic territory - if that makes any sense (and if I've understood it right, myself). I am under the impression that things operate rather differently in other countries, where perhaps all scouting-related groups work together on a much broader level.

Hello Kadiera, and welcome to the forum. I do want to clarify that I wasn't trying to knock Spiral Scouts as a program. I'm happy that it exists and I wish you (and all other Scouts) only the best in building your program further. That said, I suspect that there are a lot of people who aren't entirely happy with the BSA's stance on certain social issues, who also might not fit very well with Spiral Scouts for other reasons. And honestly, most families I've met through scouting - especially Cub Scouting (elementary school age) - are not in a position to start their own group, so the lack of established groups is a deterrent, I'm sure. And that was a large part of my point - it is a dodge to go tell somebody "just go join some other group" (rather than discussing the concerns that might lead up to that), when the "other group" invoked is not readily available. I definitely don't mean that as a judgment of your program though, just a pragmatic observation. As for camping in state parks in MI - you're correct if you use the family camping areas. However, many state parks in MI have a "group camp" area that is explicitly for groups of youth like Scouts. Over the years our Scout packs (elem school) and troops (middle/high school) have camped at many of these so it is do-able. I don't know what part of MI you are in, but you might try Kensington Metropark, Island Lake State Rec Area, Hudson Mills and Huron Meadows Metroparks, Highland SRA(I think), and plenty of others in SE MI.

I have been unable to find any mention of this on the web, which I would have expected, if the story had been all over the news. Can you provide any indication of where you are so that people might be able to gather a few more details prior to giving advice?

To answer your question, if there is no charter yet, they cannot file the "Unit money earning" application. Right, and I suspect this is both part of the appeal of doing pre-charter fundraising and part of the concern I'm voicing. Does that mean that prior to being chartered, the group could raise funds by doing things that they would not be allowed to do after being chartered? How about a raffle or poker night? How would people feel about this? I guess it is a gray area, and I wonder how much it could ruffle feathers, or whether maybe it is not a big deal.

Fair enough, uz2bnowl. Let me try to clarify what I meant. My intended point was not that one must agree with and embrace opposing or critical viewpoints. Rather, what I meant was that sending the message that "you disagree? then leave!" is a dodge. It is a dodge around serious and thoughtful conversation about the basis for the disagreement, and it is a dodge around meaningful discussion about *why* (otherwise reasonable) people disagree, and it is a dodge around honest consideration of whether or not the basis of the disagreement is something fundamental to the institution, or something fairly peripheral. I find it is generally easier for many people (no one here in particular) to just puff up their chests and say - hey, love it or leave it - than to have those sorts of meaningful and substantive discussions. How unfortunate, since those discussions might lead to better understanding on all sides. Understanding doesn't have to result in agreeing with or embracing opposing positions but I happen to think it is better for all sides to understand each other's concerns, than not to. In fairness, (as wingnut points out) yes there are other organizations out there that one might join, and that are better-established than Spiral Scouts. Maybe that's part of why I am amused by the fact that Spiral Scouts are brought up so frequently here as a viable alternative to the BSA, because in reality, they aren't (yet?) a viable alternative for most people. And their focus isn't one that probably appeals to a lot of people from mainstream faith backgrounds, either. So when somebody takes issue with the BSA I just don't see how "Just go join Spiral Scouts" is a serious response in most cases. Yeah, I don't know if that clarifies things or not...what say you?

Thanks to all for your suggestions, which my son enjoyed and shared with his patrol. Their iron chef patrol competition was yesterday. So here's the update: the box oven was a hit for making corn bread and apple pies! Some of the boys' other endeavors didn't turn out quite the way they'd intended - roasting an 18 lb turkey on a hand-cranked rotisserie that one of the boys built, for example (the shaft broke, they realized they didn't want to crank it anyway, and they ended up cooking it on a grate over coals instead)- but they improvised and everything was pretty tasty anyway. I got to be part of the judges panel (mmm) and really I was impressed with all of their efforts. And in the end, the youngest patrol (not my son's) won the prize! They've got a couple of nascent chefs in their group.

Our district has been talking with a couple of groups about starting up one or more crews (outdoor, high adventure focus). Some of the people involved with one of the potential crews are of the opinion that the boys should either be able to take money from their boy scout accounts (expectation there is that most boys will be from a specific troop that has scout accounts already established) or that the as-yet-unformed potential crew should do some fundraising prior to being chartered, so as to have money to start with. If the latter option occurs, since they wouldn't yet be part of the BSA (not chartered yet!) there is some question as to whether BSA unit-money-raising rules would apply. I'm curious to know what people here think about that scenario. Another group is talking about forming a crew to focus on backpacking. As we all know, equipment can be expensive, and this group proposes that each boy needs to have his own equipment (no loaners from a centrally owned crew equipment shed, and no need to store all the gear in somebody's barn/basement/where ever!). Consequently they're looking at some significant start up costs too, which leave me wondering how new members who might not own any such equipment would get up to speed, and whether or not money raised by this potential crew could be used by member to buy personally-owned equipment. I know we have some folks on this board who have been involved with starting up crews and ships. I'd appreciate your thoughts -and of course everyone else's too- on an appropriate level and method of funding for crews like these to get them started.

Kudu, while I can appreciate and may even agree with some of your concerns, I find it insulting that you use the language of Cub Scouting to air your grievances. Your last post makes it twice now, in this thread, where you've engaged in some implicit put-downs of Cubbing and Cub Scouters. Cub Scouters work hard to deliver a quality program and deserve all of our respect, not derision. I wish you'd stop that.

I get a little chuckle out of this every time somebody proposes it as an alternative to the BSA. Not to disparage Spiral Scouts or anything, but how many of us have ever heard of this organization, outside of this forum? How many of us can say "yep, there's a Spiral Scouts group in or near my town." This gets tossed out as if it were a viable option the same as taking little Johnny off to the Join Scouting night at the local elementary school, but in reality, I don't think this is an apt comparison or serious option for most people. According to the Spiral Scouts International website, there are only about 65 active groups in the entire country, operating in less than half of the states. There appear to be more de-chartered and inactive groups as active ones. And seriously, again not meaning to disparage anyone, but just because I happen to disagree with the BSA's stance on certain hot-button social issues does not mean I'd necessarily feel more at home in Hecate's Helpers or the Crystal Dragons Circle. Personally I think the "just go join Spiral Scouts" rejoinder is a convenient dodge of the real issues, more often than not.

OK so this is one of my pet peeves, I admit it. But lately I've been dealing with an awful lot of adults in troops and district and council committees who a) do not have their facts straight on various aspects of the cub scout (esp. Webelos) program and b) do not seem to care or will not believe it when told they're incorrect. Why is it that people who have not been involved with cub scouts in quite a few years (or ever, in some cases) seem to be so sure they're right when they variously assert that: 1) Webelos can't camp; 2) Webelos MUST camp to earn their Outdoorsman/Webelos/Arrow of Light award (take your pick); 3) Webelos not only must camp, but must do so with the troop they intend to join; 4) Boys who haven't earned AoL can't join Boy Scouts until they finish 5th grade (regardless of age), or 4b) Boys can't join Boy Scouts until they're 11, even if they finished 5th grade and have AoL And so on, and so forth. I've heard all of the above this week from supposedly "trained" sources, which makes me think that either we need to do some quality control on our training, or we need to start requiring refresher courses. One person told me that they were sure they were correct and that there's a new Webelos book out and our council scout shop just isn't selling it yet (I suppose this might be true, but I can't find any evidence of it anywhere else. If anyone has seen a new Webelos book, I'd be grateful for the info). OK, thanks for letting me vent. It has been that sort of week I guess.

Yeah pack, we call that "investment." I "know" the Buffalo Sabres really won the Stanley Cup in 1999 and that the ref who upheld the "winning" goal that Dallas has always claimed to have scored was both blind and an idiot. Nothing anybody says to the contrary is ever going to change my mind on that. And Brett Hull (the alleged goal scorer) is persona non grata in my life, to the point that I have had to root against any other team that he plays for on the basis that they clearly have no integrity for signing him. Practically everybody is invested in something and lots of times the things people are invested in claiming as "truth" are in fact, totally incorrect (unlike my above example, where not only do I realize I'm invested, but I'm also 110% right, darn it). So apparently Ed is invested in believing that the ACLU only goes after Christian symbols and also that the ACLU eagerly awaits every opportunity to "get" the BSA. This, despite the documented fact that the ACLU has done precisely the thing that Ed repeatedly criticizes them for not doing. Well ok. My suggestion is that every time he brings up that old and factually incorrect point, somebody should post a one-line reminder, with link, to another thread where it was already discussed and demonstrated that Ed's assertion is wrong. And then DROP IT and move on to the rest of the discussion. Perhaps in this way we can avoid the "I know you are but what am I" character of the all-too-frequent Ed-Merlyn thread hijackings. Though mind you, I'm not going to hold my breath. Go Sabres!

I appreciate both Ed's and Merlyn's views as well, though I tend to think that Ed has a rather dogmatic approach (I'm right. You're wrong. That's just how it is.) and I too tire of Merlyn's "you can't learn" rejoinders. One thing, though - it is nice that Ed ventures outside the politics area and offers his advice, thoughts, and critiques on practical (dare I say, "ACTUAL"?) matters of interest to the lives of day-to-day scouters in the trenches. And I appreciate that he generally leaves his political views out of those other areas. In that way, he reminds me of a lot of folks I've met through scouting who have strong political views one way or another, but generally don't air them out unless asked. About charter schools as COs - had an interesting conversation with my DE about that a while back where he insisted that while public schools should not be COs, charters were ok. In fact I think we had a thread about it here, where it was pointed out that charters ARE public schools and consequently, this line of thinking doesn't fit very well with BSA's own guidelines on COs.

Without knowing what the argument is about, it is hard to tell whether the BSA is flashing their figurative parts as GW suggests, or just being stubborn about some idiotic bureaucratic thing.

"Can you imagine how popular scouting might be if no one looked beyond their little fiefdom and we were still wearing wool tunics and jodhpurs?" Yeah...not sure I want to see some of my fellow scouters in that outfit! Thanks for the image there, hot_foot. Seriously, Eamonn's right (as ever) and most of the hotly debated topics here aren't really things that get much play in the "real world" of packs, troops, etc.. And that's good. I see this little section of the forum as more of an imitation of the way we "play" politics these days. There's darn little emphasis on pragmatic solutions and compromise in the media coverage of politics, even though that's really what most people probably would like to see (though NOT what we apparently want to see on our nightly news/infotainment coverage.) Hot button issues are so much more "fun" to rant about. "Look, I came here for an argument!" On another note - it is snowing outside my window, first time this fall. Brr.

I went to WB the summer between my son's bear and webelos I years. It was good timing in many ways. If I had waited another year, then our pack would have gotten very little benefit from my training because I crossed over with my son. I think that's one reason WB is being pushed earlier - otherwise there's hardly a point in most cub leaders taking it. (Those who want to argue that cub leaders still ought to have their own, separate WB, please start your own thread.) I agree w/ Its Me that taking WB at that point in time was a great way to really grasp the principles of the boy scout program. It was also an excellent opportunity for me personally to get to know lots of boy scout leaders which helped a lot with webelos-scout transition matters for our webelos guys. Four and a half years later, I can still see the shadow of my WB experience and ticket on how our former pack interacts with local troops, and I'd say that's a good thing. But I also agree w/ hot-foot eagle that it can be daunting to those with limited prior knowledge of the boy scout program. For example, I had no idea what "Class B" meant. When informed that it meant a T shirt, I showed up to that session in my decidedly non-BSA tye dye. When then further informed that it should say BSA on it somewhere, I added a BSA sticker. They, ah, weren't sure what to do with me? (except, perhaps, smile and shake their heads). However, they did a better job of clarifying terms after that. On the plus side, while I learned a great deal about boy scouting from my patrol mates and TG, most of them were also decidedly uninformed (and misinformed) about the cubbing program (including a number of staffers, one of whom to this day insists that the "new" -aka- late 90s era cub beltloops do not exist) and I like to think some of them also benefited from my knowledge of that program. Among other things, it is hard to design a good first year scout program if you have no clue about how the webelos program works and what types of experiences those new boy scouts are likely to have had, or to be prepared for. And I do know my lack of familiarity with troop jargon caused at least one person to stop and think about how his troop didn't do a very good job of communicating with new troop parents and boys. But yeah, I think there's a need to have at least some practical experience with scouter-ing in some level of the program (cubs, troops, crews, teams, ships, where ever) in order to make the most of the experience. And I am certain that I'd have gotten some very different things from WB if I had waited a few more years. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

Gern, that's the spot I'm in too. Nobody around here seems to know anything about these new uniform shirts (DE incl.) so I'm just going to sit tight for as long as my son can still fit into his "old style" uniform, and hope that supply rolls out these new options fairly soon.

Fishsqueezer (have to ask - what's the meaning of that name? Makes me think of Smeagle!) It sounds like things went pretty well, given the circumstances. I just want to say thanks for your efforts and concerns on behalf of this boy. I hope it never will be, but I know if it were my child in that situation, I'd be grateful to have the support and assistance of someone like you to help the boy understand the impact of his actions. All this business of raising young men of character can be tough sometimes!

That's an interesting approach, Volker! Sadly I don't think it would fly over here. And honestly when I am camping I really do not want to share my small private space with anybody else. My tent is my retreat. (Probably a very American attitude, I know, but it is still mine) I agree with you though, about your overall assessment of the situation in this thread. Just another example of the fact that adults often don't behave much better than the kids.

It's this weekend. We'll see...

Scanning through some threads, it occurs to me that there are a lot of adults here who were scouts for a fairly brief time (a year, two maybe) in their youth and then dropped out, only to come back and spend far more time in the program as adult scouters. I'm curious, for those who had that experience - what, if anything, about your youth experience have you found relevant to your adult scouting experience? And do you think that your youth experience, short as it may have been, had much impact on your decision to join back up as an adult? Really I'm just being nosy I guess, but I was thinking about retention and what boys get from the program, and I found myself wondering about some of the boys I've met who didn't stay with it very long. I wonder which of them will end up as longtime adult scouters and what they'll end up making of their rather short youth scouting experience, if anything. Is it just something they did for a little while or will it turn out to have been pretty meaningful, for all that it was brief?

Nah, eoleson, I would be equally unhappy with the politician in your example doing that. However, it seems a pretty unlikely scenario. Plain and simple, I'd like our politicians to keep their greedy little mitts off of scouting. If they want to take a stand on homosexuality (or whatever else), great, go do it. Plenty of real, adult-level, issues out there to talk about. How 'bout medical care and rights for the partners of gay people? Whether or not gay couples can legally adopt children? Tax benefits denied to gay couples based on their inability to get (legally) married in most states, etc., etc. Plenty of real adult topics to take a stand over, one way or another. My problem is that the BSA is a YOUTH organization. Politicians of any party or ideology who trot out their feelings about a youth organization like the BSA for political gain in an election year deserve to be greeted with some skepticism, if you ask me. Color me cynical but I'm having a hard time believing any other explanation for the nature and timing of Perry's forthcoming book.

Hi Barry, (grin) I once had a professor whose mantra was that cloudy thoughts make for cloudy writing. I've often found that she was right. Thanks for asking for clarification and I'll try to do better. In general I agree that much of what happens in that first year of boy scouting is way beyond the control of webelos den leaders to influence. Troops with good first year programs do have a much lower attrition rate than those without such programs. And yes I do see this at the district level all the time when I look at membership numbers. But I guess I was thinking about some of the things that we did in our webelos den that weren't helpful in acclimating the boys (and parents) toward what they should expect from a boy scout troop. For example, in another thread I posted that as webelos we actually switched from weekly meetings to (longer) bi-monthly meetings, in order to give the boys more meeting time in one sitting to do projects & activities. And that was entirely practical, convenient, and worked well for us at the time, but did NOT prepare boys and their parents for the reality that all of the local boy scout troops meet every week. I did not understand what an adjustment that was going to be for people until after the boys crossed over and several parents expressed the view that these weekly troop meetings were just too much for their schedules. So if I had it to do again, I would have stayed with weekly meetings for our webelos den. That's a small thing. But it is an example of things that I did not see until after spending some time in the troop side of the program. And it would have been nice to have the benefit of other people's experiences, when I was still a WDL! So I suppose what I'm looking for here are lessons learned from specific experience - what kinds of things would be helpful for Webelos Leaders (some of whom have direct experience with boy scouting, some of whom do not) to do, not do, pass on to their den's parents & boys, etc..? (the question of how troops should develop a good 1st year scout program is, I hope, a different thread)

Does the district get rewarded if more units achieve the award? Yes. This counts toward achieving "quality district." Or anyway that's my understanding as part of my district's committee and from my DE. And QD counts toward "quality council" too.

There have been a number of posts relating to the topic of relationships between troops and packs, appropriate use of and expectations surrounding provision of den chiefs, and how to improve the retention of scouts crossing from webelos to boy scouts. I was a Webelos Den Leader, still my favorite job in scouting to date. Kids that age are great fun to work with and I really liked the structure of the webelos program. I think it provides a pretty appropriate level of challenge for most boys in that age range, while also maintaining a whole lot of flexibility. As a WDL I thought I had a pretty good handle on the transition stuff. I did all the reading I could on the boy scout program, encouraged our boys to really consider all of the troops in town, arranged for our boys to attend activities with them, did more outdoor-oriented "stuff" with them as webelos, and so on. That was close to three years ago now. Today, of the 13 or 14 W II boys from our pack (two dens - one I had nothing to do with) only 3 are still active in boy scouting. Most dropped out in their first year. Some would have no matter what, and didn't even attend a full month of troop meetings. Some probably would have been happier in other troops than the one they joined. Some were not mentally prepared for boy scouts. Some had parents who weren't interested in staying with the program, or who didn't understand the basic purposes of the boy scout program. To be fair, I see this happen every year in lots of different troops with practically every group of cross-over scouts, so I don't think it was my "fault" that many boys fell through the cracks in the transition process. But, in hindsight and with the benefit of a much better understanding of the nature of boy scout troops vs. webelos dens and cub scout packs, there are plenty of things I wish I had known as a WDL, instead of discovering later on! And there wasn't really anybody to tell me these things at the time I was a WDL. So, in that spirit, for those of you who have been on both sides of the fence - webelos leaders and troop leaders - what one or two constructive and specific things would you encourage an eager WDL to do (or NOT do) as part of making their webelos program as effective as possible? To borrow from Beavah's rules in some other threads - this isn't about bashing either side of the equation or opening up an "us vs. them" theme - but about really offering hard-earned insights into what works, what doesn't, and why. A Scout(er) is helpful.

Also, isn't a requirement of the AOL to visit 3 troops before crossover? No, this is not an AOL requirement. Here's a link to the requirements: http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/arrowoflight.asp Perhaps you're thinking of requirements 4 and 6. These indicate that, during the webelos program (which is typically 18 months) a boy should have visited a troop meeting, an outdoor-oriented boy scout event, and had a conference with a scoutmaster. These do not necessarily have to be with different troops though, and I have met leaders who have done all of these in one weekend - troop meeting on Friday, camp with troop on Friday night/Saturday, SM conf. on Saturday and then home again with everything done. Not saying that's the best way to do it IMO, but I know it happens. Keep in mind too, that while AoL requirement #4 makes a comment about not double counting an outdoor activity toward both this requirement and the webelos Outdoorsman pin, attendance at a troop outdoor activity is merely an option (not a requirement) for the Outdoorsman pin.