Kudu

sherminator505 writes: I think you're missing the point of this thread! We are talking about the necessity of having a SPL, not debating whether White Stag or EDGE or WB21 are valid. Nobody knows who discovered water, but it certainly was not a fish. Why are you so determined to shove an SPL down the throat of Troop with only 8 Scouts? Because like a fish who takes water for granted, you have never objectively examined the theory of Scouting that compels you to impose an SPL on even a single Patrol. And not just an SPL, mind you, but an "understudy" ASPL to boot! As for your personal attacks on me, it is impossible to defend White Stag, EDGE, or post-1972 Wood Badge without eventually resorting to an ad hominem attack. We lost three million Boy Scouts because of Leadership Development's war on Scoutcraft and our Congressional Charter. The only way for office experts to justify the toxic effect that leadership theory has on Scouting is to attack those who stand in its way, starting in 1965 with White Stag's personal attack on William Hillcourt. If your life would be more pleasant in a world where nobody questioned the necessity of office theory in Scouting, then simply click the "Ignore this user" link in the box to the left of this post. Beavah writes: Collaborative: Youth get to make up their own structure, and adults are just a part of it. Job descriptions and roles change according to da people in them. Youth routinely work together in ways that aren't top-down, and da adults fade more into the background as occasional collaborators. This is an extraordinary post, Beavah, one that I will quote for years. It is not just a useful way of looking at the stages of an adult leader's development, but it also measures how an experienced leader can move a "Troop in Trouble" from adult run to what you call "Collaborative." I especially like: "Job descriptions and roles change according to da people in them." That neatly describes Stosh's world, I think. It is also the stage in a Troop's development where I shift theories of Scouting in relation to the strong personalities of the Troop's natural leaders. Sometimes a Troop is best served by Baden-Powell's Patrol System, sometimes William Hillcourt's Patrol Method, and sometimes (if my junior leader NYLT staffers insist), even the stuff we learn at BSA training (as long as the Patrols are physically separated as far apart as each Patrol Leader's abilities will allow). Eagle92 writes: Kudu, They have already watered-down BSA Lifeguard IMHO by removing the boating aspects, and, from what I've been told, the "hand to hand combat," i.e. escapes, releases, and holds of the old program...So please don't give anyone more ideas about BSA Lifeguard. Sorry, Eagle, but Wood Badge has had their eyes on BSA Lifeguard for a long time because swimming is still popular. It is a "position of responsibility" so it rightfully belongs to them, and it is only a matter of time before they do to BSA Lifeguards what they did to BSA Patrol Leaders: Take away their position-specific training and replace it with EDGE: EXPLAIN to the victim what it means to not be drowning. DEMONSTRATE to the victim that you yourself are doing fine. GUIDE the victim through some team-building exercises. ENABLE the victim to now go save himself! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

mikecummings157 writes I'm anticipating problems asking to pull all sixth grade boys out of class for a presentation. For years we could not get access during school hours because of "school policy." Then our Troop's (frequently suspended) natural leader told me that the vice principal in charge of detention (whom he saw "every day") was a Scoutmaster and would likely let us in. So our worst trouble-maker Scout spoke with the vice principal in charge of detention, and he in turn arranged for the two sixth grade boys' gym classes to meet in the auditorium to hear my presentation. So, getting into a public school is easy if you remember: It's not what you you know, it's the hooligan you know allangr1024 writes: Kudu, you should film one of these and put it on YOUTUBE so we can see it in action. It was on my "To Do" list, but I retired in 2007 and moved south. In this area the DE gives the in-school presentations. The neighborhood Troop in which I currently serve as an ASM has about 40 registered Scouts. That is a "mega-Troop" by rural southern standards, so I have not given the presentation since 2007. SR540Beaver writes: We typically get 15 to 20 new scouts per year and 99.9% of them come from Webelos crossing over. That is true for my current Troop. They all come from feeder Packs from all over the county. Maybe 5% live in this town. Think of Cub Scouts as a giant filter. The only boys who remain in Cub Scouts are those who can put up with Den Mothers. Some stick with it because their parents force them, but after earning Arrow of Light if given the option many of the remaining boys drop out rather than cross over into Boy Scouts. Up north I did not have a "feeder Pack," so my presentation is designed for all the sixth-grade boys that the Cub Scout program filters out. That was consistently about 15 out of a total audience 53. In BSA-speak that is 28% TAR (Total Available Youth) which is in ADDITION to all the sixth-graders who had ALREADY crossed over into other Troops like SR540Beaver's. Does anyone know what a typical DE's target TAR is? I've heard 2-5%, but even if it is twice that, the BSA could recruit three times as many sixth-graders if it simply obeyed the terms of our Congressional Charter. The total number of sixth-graders who (in front of their peers) signed my list asking me to call their parents so they could be a Boy Scout was usually around 38 out of the 53. In other words the potential TAR of a 1916-style Scouting program is 71% of all sixth-grade boys IN ADDITION to the boys who cross over from Webelos into the Wood Badge version of Boy Scouts. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918) (This message has been edited by kudu)

Beavah writes: my title was designed in part as a tease, eh? Welcome to the dark side, Beavah Keep in mind that by current usage of the term, the BSA is socialized Scouting: Congress picks one winning corporation and then prohibits American citizens from competing with this government-sanctioned monopoly in a free marketplace. In return for this lucrative entitlement, the BSA is required to provide the BSA's Scoutcraft program as it existed on June 15, 1916. But of course once the socialists get into power, they break their promises and ignore the law because Trustworthy and Obedient are old-fashioned! Sec. 30902. Purposes: The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. [but] camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in character development and leadership skill growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us. http://www.inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

We could apply the same Wood Badge Logic to BSA Lifeguards: 1) Hold six month popularity contests for BSA Lifeguard because it is a "Position of Responsibility." 2) Eliminate position-specific training for BSA Lifeguard, just as Leadership Development did to Patrol Leaders. 3) The Scoutmaster teaches the SPL the EDGE method. 4) The SPL implements the EDGE method on the waterfront because it is reflective of how we run most real-life organizations and indeed most governmental bodies in this country. Nothing fake about it! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I think the question of whether a troop needs a SPL is the wrong question. Do your boys need the experience of being an SPL? In my experience, the removal from a single patrol into a coordinating leadership function is new to them and something most Scouts can and do learn from. Learning to monitor and delegate (as opposed to just pass off work) is one of the hardest leadership roles to learn That in a nutshell is how Wood Badge killed the Patrol Method with Fake Leadership. People who spend their days in office cubicles decided that the "experience" of "leadership roles" was more important than the adventure of hiking and camping in a Patrol independent of the Troop. So office experts replaced Green Bar Bill's "Patrol Leader Training" (which taught only the best natural leaders how to lead a Patrol into the woods), with "Junior Leader Training" (which teaches generic "Junior Leaders" how to lead a generic group through a "leadership" formula). If you care enough about Scouting to actually read the ultimate guide to Fake Leadership, the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training, you will find that office experts have eliminated any mention of a Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol. All that remains now is the Troop Method SPL and the Fake Leadership formula called "EDGE." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

If you have access to a public school, you can register 28% of the sixth grade boys if you use my recruiting presentation (and have the "1916" outdoor program that it promises): http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm That 28% registration does not count the Webelos who already crossed over to other Boy Scout Troops from Cub Scout "feeder" Packs. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Gary_Miller writes: According to "The SPL Handbook", the SPL is elected by the troop. "All youth members of the troop are eligible to vote." Gary, BoomerScout and Eagle92 refer to the tradition of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method: The Senior Patrol Leader is elected by the Troop Leaders' Council [PLC]. His appointment is authorized by the Troop Committee on the Scoutmaster's recommendation (Handbook for Scoutmasters, 4th edition, page 67). Shortridge's method is in the tradition of Robert Baden-Powell's Patrol System, in which the Senior Patrol Leader is optional: "238. (i) A Troop Leader [sPL] may, if desired, be appointed by the S.M. in consultation with the Court of Honour [PLC] ("Policy, Organization, & Rules, 1938, http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/groups.htm ). Eagle92 writes: I am used to troop wide elections for SPL. When the PLC decides, is it among one of the PLs or an "outsider" i.e. a scout not on the PLC. If it's one of the PLC members, does the patrol hold another election for PL, or does the APL move up? Hillcourt writes: "Since the Senior Patrol Leader is expected to work with the Patrol Leaders and assist them in their jobs, he should know what it means to run a Patrol. Generally speaking, a Boy Scout or Explorer with an outstanding record as Patrol Leader makes the best Senior Patrol Leader." In other words, the SPL is expected to have extensive experience in leading his own Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts separately from the Troop. So usually the PLC would select one of their own. The Patrol Leader was expected to "train his Assistant Patrol Leader to lead the Patrol in his absence." In this era a Patrol Leader had real responsibility. The APL could either be elected by the Patrol or appointed by the PL, but the SM was instructed to caution the PL that "the choice should be governed by 'Who will make the best Assistant for the Patrol?' and not 'Which fellow do I like best?'" The Patrol Leader Training course was where both the Patrol Leaders and the Assistant Patrol Leaders actually learned how to take their Patrols hiking and camping without adult supervision. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm It took six months to complete, so (all things being equal) it would be logical for the APL to step up. Remember that in the days before POR requirements and leadership formulas, As a general rule, a Patrol Leader stays in office as long as he gets results, or until he moves into another leadership position in the Troop. Terms of office were only used in "some cases" where a face-saving method of getting rid of Patrol Leaders who can not lead a Patrol without adult supervision might be necessary "This may simplify matters where a boy proves a poor Patrol Leader and may have to give up his job to a better leader (Handbook for Scoutmasters, 4th edition, page 50). I agree with BoomerScout that "Accordings" can, and, many times, should be custom tailored to the individual troop. . In other words, the purpose of threads like this is to give Scoutmasters a bunch of different models of how the Patrol Method can work. In general I agree with Shortridge. His describes a Troop as Baden-Powell envisioned it, a loose confederation of fiercely independent Patrols. That is how I like to structure a Troop. But I make a distinction between "Boy-Led" and "Boy-Run." In a "Boy-Led" Troop the Scoutmaster picks the structure and the Scouts lead within that particular theory of Scouting. I use a "Boy-Run" model in which I switch theories of Scouting as the natural leaders become self-aware. In my last Troop the dominate natural leader was an NYLT staffer, so he took the Troop away from the Hillcourt model and introduced a whole lot of corporate team-building exercises (which have more resonance when the Patrols are spaced widely). He did learn his lesson about Troop-wide elections. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction" (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918). http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

I think it was EagleDad who once wrote that about 5% of the population are natural leaders. I don't know from where he got that statistic, but I have always found it to be true. In a Troop of 20 Scouts there is usually one natural leader. All the Scouts know who he is, even if the adults do not. In a Scout-run Troop he is always at the center, moving things along. In an adult-led Troop, he is that ring-leader at the back of the room who causes all the trouble. When your natural leader is one of the Patrol Leaders, it brings out the adolescent testosterone. The other Patrol Leaders quickly figure out how he runs his Patrol and then they begin to compete. When the natural leader is the SPL, the Patrol Leaders tend to follow him rather than compete, and then everyone begins to think in terms of the Troop rather than their own Patrol because the SPL has all the good ideas. Unfortunately in my own Scout-run (as opposed to "Scout-led") Troop, the SPL patch always began to look good to the natural leaders after a while. One time the best one organized a Troop election (against my advice to keep it in the PLC) and promptly lost to a less able rival who stiffed us at the parking lot for two (2) High Adventure outings before he mercifully resigned :-/ Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Eagledad writes: Yeah, "fake Leadership" are buz words intended to get an emotional reaction, Fake Leadership is easy to identify. Before Wood Badge switched from Scoutcraft to the "Eleven Leadership Skills" in 1972, the goal of Bill Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training was to teach Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrols hiking on a regular basis without adult supervision. Scoutmasters who teach Fake Leadership keep their Patrols very close together on ALL campouts. Eagledad writes: kind of like the "SPLs are only used so the SM's maintain their control over the boys". This thread is a good example: Plenty of red flags. Every SM who controls the Scouts through the SPL knows how to sprinkle terms like "Patrol Method," "boy-led," or "boy-run" into what they say. Eagledad writes: How much leadership a scout gets is purely a result of what the adults are comfortably willing to give. Adults are not taught the Patrol Method. They can pick up the idea from forums like this and from pre-1972 BSA Scoutmaster handbooks, but not from BSA training. Ask a Wood Badge Course Director to find a Patrol Leader or a description of a working Patrol in the Patrol Method Session in Scoutmaster Specific Training. It is fun to watch. This is the "Patrol Method" session, mind you. Eagledad writes: most good scoutmasters on this forum will agree that it takes a few years to understand how to get good at this scouting stuff, expecially boy run stuff. It is not simply as easy at 300'. Is "at" a typo? If not, then we appear to agree on the big picture: The real test is physical distance. Before the invention of Leadership Development, the test of "boy-led" was the Patrol Leader's ability to take his Patrol hiking without adult supervision. If that went well, then the next stage was extended Patrol Hikes (Patrol Camping). The Patrol Method so described is not possible if you teach Fake Leadership. But despite our training, any Scoutmaster can begin to learn the Patrol Method the day he first separates the Patrols by physical distance, say 30 feet (1/10 of Baden-Powell's minimum standard). Then increase the physical distance between the most competent Patrols gradually. The point to all this is that a Troop does not need an SPL. If you have one or two Patrol Leaders who can lead a Patrol at even 100 feet from the other Patrols (and from the adult helicopters), they will step in to pick up the slack when they see a need. That is what real leaders do. As several contributors have pointed out, the fact that nobody wants to be SPL in the OP's Troop is a bad sign, but it is also an opportunity to take a break from the Troop Method and discover what Green Bar Bill called "A Real Patrol." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Eagle92 writes: Kudu, No disrespect, but I think it was GBB who thought up the concept of an SPL, No, Green Bar Bill's SPL was similar to Baden-Powell's Troop Leader: The Patrol Leaders run the Troop. In GBB's Patrol Method THEY select the SPL. Fake Leadership holds TROOP-wide popularity contests and imposes POR requirements to encourage rapid six-month turn-overs which destabilize Patrol Leadership and cause frustration (Fake Wood Badge calls this "Storming." It is part of their formula). Eagle92 writes: and BP agreed with it. B-P agreed with no such thing. Baden-Powell's Wood Badge and Green Bar Bill's Wood Badge is a week of Patrol-based Scoutcraft that trains Scoutmasters how Patrol Leaders take their Patrols on their own Scoutcraft Adventures. Fake Leadership kicks this rugged Patrol Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge and replaces it with boxes of tissue for weepy Wolf Den Leaders. Baden-Powell is clear: A Boy Scout Troop does not need an SPL. If a Scoutmaster desires one, he must consult with the PLC. Obviously it is now in the Patrol Leaders' best interest to vote against a modern TROOP SPL because he in turn appoints TROOP ASPLs and TROOP Guides to vote against the Patrol Leaders in the PATROL Leaders' Council (of all places)! Wood Badge is the TROOP Method, not the Patrol Method. A Note to Young Readers: Recognize, Resist, and Report to Congress on YouTube! An adult "leadership" expert who threatens to cancel all your outings if you don't elect an SPL does NOT have your best interests at heart. Show the world. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

sherminator505 writes: Leadership as the Senior Patrol Leader, when properly performed, is not fake (I'm a BIG fan of SPLs). So are you a big enough "fan" of SPLs to "Announce new SPL/ASPL elections. If no one wants the jobs, all outings are canceled"? dg98adams writes: Scouts are boy-led, and if there is no boy Leadership, then there is no BOY SCOUTS. Talk about "Red Flags!" Fake Leadership is the kind of golden parachute thinking that comes when Wood Badge declares war on an Act of Congress. The Congressional Charter requires the BSA to promote Scoutcraft, not leadership theory. "Boy-led"? The Scouts said "Gee, no thanks!" If a certain major-general says that Boy Scout Patrols do not need SPLs then they don't, no matter what office cubical experts tell you. If in the future EagerLeader's Patrol Leaders decide they want an SPL, they will arrange an election without any adult taking it upon himself to impose one. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

How big is your Troop? Lord Baden-Powell (the major-general who invented Scouting) wrote that an SPL is purely optional in a Troop of 32 active Scouts. In B-P's Patrol System, a Boy Scout Troop is run by the Patrol Leaders. A Troop that uses the Patrol System will never need an SPL if you: 1) Take an active interest in each Patrol, 2) Invest enough time to visit each Patrol individually to explain the qualities that will help them identify that particular Patrol's best leader, then 3) Encourage them to elect and stick with him as long as he is the best leader (no matter who "needs" a POR). When a Troop's Patrols are run by the best natural leaders, one of them will step up if and when someone is needed to coordinate the Patrol Leaders' efforts. Consider the fact that nobody wants to be SPL the blessing that led your Troop away from boring office stuff like leadership styles, communications, team building, and adult "leadership" experts who threaten to cancel outings just to get their way. Boys join Scouting to camp, not to learn fake leadership. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

acco40 writes: Isn't Scoutcraft simply the crafts we teach Scouts? If so, then are we not arguing a moot point? That is why Wood Badge declared war on our Congressional Charter. That Act of Congress is very specific in its reference to the methods that were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916. Therefore, the test of a First Class Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft is for him to make a round trip alone (or with another Scout) to a point at least seven miles away (fourteen miles in all), going on foot or rowing boat, and write a satisfactory account of the trip and things observed. See: http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm Yours at 300 feet, Rick Seymour

John-in-KC writes: Who is going to cut down trees to provide the timbers for a signal tower in the Leave No Trace era? BSA has been, and sometimes rightly so, accused of using outdoor techniques that are damaging to a micro-environment. Who still ditches tents? Who still digs trenches for fire pits? Who cuts branches for browse beds? John is more enlightened than most leadership advocates, but the same litany is hauled out whenever Staffers justify why Wood Badge violates both the spirit and the letter of an Act of Congress: Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. The 1916 program can be found at: http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm I don't see anything there that requires trenching tents or cutting branches for browse beds. I never trenched a tent when I was a Scout before 1965, and most $50 tents now have bathtub bottoms. I don't see anything wrong with digging trenches for fire pits in the absence of established fire rings, as long as we save and replace the sod. My 1944 Fieldbook mentions straw, dry grass, and dry leaves under your groundsheet, not evergreen branches. We used air mattresses. I did once sleep under the stars on a bed of balsam that another Troop had harvested the previous weekend. Almost a half-century later I remember that night. BSA Councils cut down trees for money all the time. Pioneering in the 21st century is just a matter of preserving for reuse small trees routinely thinned out. As Steven Covey says "Begin with the end in mind." Wood Badge starts with the premise that to be popular we must violate our Congressional Charter, then it works backwards, citing Leave No Trace, the Guide to Safe Scouting, and race and gender issues. Like speeders who spout cliches to state troopers, this process should be familiar to everyone who watches corporate leadership experts explain golden parachute thinking to Congress. John-in-KC writes: The US Army does not even issue signal flags anymore. The Navy does make blinker signal with Morse and run flag hoists ... when vessels are operating in close proximity. They just as often send digits across a radio-based LAN. This is a different but equally well-worn Wood Badge excuse. If "modern practicality" was the reason for teaching code to Scouts, then why were the requirements later expanded to include (along with deaf sign) Indian sign language? Signalling belongs to the most primary class of Scoutcraft skills gutted from the BSA: Observation and Deduction. Kim's game, tracking, and secret codes have always appealed to boys, as noted by Baden-Powell, Dan Beard, and Seton. Scoutcraft is all about what a Scout can do with this hands. As Richard Louv points out in Last Child in the Woods, the human brain evolved as a result of the design of the human hand. What do Boy Scout Morse code, semaphore, Indian sign language, and deaf sign all have in common? They all use the silent human hand to communicate. acco40 writes: Kudu - I'm confused with your White Stag reference. I thought White Stag was a leadership course for Scouts, not Scouters. Clearly, the BSA's war on our Congressional Charter began with Wood Badge's 1965 move from Scoutcraft to White Stag's Eleven Skills of Leadership. See "1965" at White Stag's own Website: http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html acco40 writes: I think these types of leadership courses do more to meet the aims of Scouting than Scout craft The so-called "Three Aims of Scouting" are never mentioned in the BSA's true "mission statement," the Congressional Charter. The "Three Purposes" of Scouting are ("using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916"): 1. The ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, 2. To train them in scoutcraft, and 3. To teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues Unlike the CEO worship of Wood Badge, Scoutcraft is one of the aims of Scouting. CHLees3rd writes: have you written your Congressman and/or Senators about how you feel the BSA is not living up to what is in the Congressional Charter? No. In the words of FDR, when he met with labor leaders in 1934, after four hours of meeting, he said the following: "Youve convinced me that you are right. Now, go out there and FORCE ME TO DO IT. To inspire Congress into action we must first create a popular movement. The potential is there: When I recruit in the public schools and sell BSA Scouting as the kind of adventure that excited these sixth-graders' great-grandfathers in 1916, I register about 28% of the audience IN ADDITION to the boys there who have ALREADY crossed-over from Webelos as a result of all the efforts of the BSA's millionaires and volunteers. As I understand it, BSA District Executives are expected to register 2% TAY (Total Available Youth). So, if the BSA gave up its War on the Congressional Charter, Scouting could be eleven times more popular selling Scoutcraft than it is with office manager role models. My recruiting presentation is easy enough, see: http://kudu.net/adult/recruiting.htm Likewise, my "Traditional Scouting" Website inquiry.net has served almost 30 million page hits, so clearly the potential for a popular movement is out there. Any chance that Congress may revoke the charter or compel the BSA to adhere to the conditions? The political aim of revoking the Congressional Charter is usually linked to punishing the BSA for its membership policies. Nobody is currently interested in forcing the BSA to obey an Act of Congress just because it is the Boy Scout thing to do. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

desertrat77 writes: Some have commented that woodcraft is one method of scouting, and emphasis should be placed on the other methods too. Training in Scoutcraft is not "one method of Scouting," it is one of the three "Purposes" of Scouting, as stated very clearly in our Congressional Charter (the legal instrument that gives our corporation a monopoly on Scouting for boys in the United States): Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. desertrat77 writes: Proof of the detrimental effects of downplaying leadership and woodcraft? BSA history, '72 - '80. You are entirely too kind to "leadership." Wood Badge declared war on our Congressional Charter and replaced Scoutcraft with leadership skills: Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft [sic] to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Just settle down, everything was going to be all right: "The period from 1972-80 was a national disaster, when BSA membership declined nationwide by 34% (a loss of 2.2 million members)!" http://www.troop97.net/t97hist.htm I agree with sherminator505: The new Wood Badge is not misunderstood. Leadership Development is the enemy of Scoutcraft. It always has been, and it always will be. I don't understand why: Patrol Leaders could pretend to use the EDGE method to camp their Patrols 300 feet apart (instead of pretending to use it on the Duty Roster). When Scouting was something that most boys wanted to do, leadership was merely a means to an end. That end is Patrol Adventure. When leadership becomes a "Method" of Scouting (or increasingly a Purpose of Scouting as in "Leadership and Character"), then we are obligated to "teach leadership skills" to every Scout so that every boy can occupy a "Position of Responsibility" for six months. Because Patrol Adventure requires competency, both Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt instructed Scoutmasters to stick with the best leader in each Patrol. Leadership Development is the exact opposite: Patrol Leaders are now interchangeable every six months. It removes ANY mention of the Patrol Leader and a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training and replaces him with Wood Badge EDGE theory for adults. Wood Badge is not misunderstood! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Kudu - Do I sense a little bit of bitterness? All Wood Badge debates eventually lead to "leadership" advocates moving the debate to an ad hominem attack on the motives or emotions of those who advocate Patrol-based Scoutcraft. This tradition started in 1965 with John Larson's destruction of William Hillcourt's Wood Badge: In December 1965, Chief Scout Executive Joseph Brunton Jr. received a "blueprint for action", the White Stag Report, from John Larson. It stated that offering leadership development to youth was a unique opportunity for Scouting to provide a practical benefit to youth and would add substantial support to Scouting's character development goals. It recommended that Wood Badge should be used to experiment with the leadership development principles of White Stag. The National Council leadership approved adapting the White Stag leadership competencies for nationwide use. Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting. Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." Hillcourt presented an alternative to Larson's plan to incorporate leadership into Wood Badge. Chief Scout Brunton asked Larson to look at Hillcourt's plan, and Larson reported back that it was the same stuff, just reordered and rewritten. Larson's plan for Wood Badge was approved and he moved ahead to begin testing the proposed changes. The program was designed and written by Bnthy, Perin, and Larson. http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

acco40 writes: Hmmm, I took a Physiology and differential equations course in college. Which one was better? I think they both stunk because in neither one did I learn anything about ancient Incan culture! Your analogy is valid only if: 1) Your college has a Congressional Charter that grants it a monopoly in the United States on Physiology and Differential Equations, and 2) Decided in 1965 to declare war on its Congressional Charter by replacing the course content with ancient Inca culture because that might make it more popular with racial minorities and Den Leaders. acco40 writes: Just like a college degree, the Wood Badge beads can mean a lot or very little depending on the person that they were awarded to. Why should Wood Badge be about subjective "meaning"? Why is it about the "sincerity, creativity, and dedication" of the staff who "pour their hearts into giving the very best to the participants on the course" if it is not indeed the "cult or religion of Wood Badge"? Why do we increasingly hear about the boxes of tissue provided to the Den Leader participants, while Wood Badge graduates remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method Presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific training and replace it with Wood Badge EDGE theory? Because Corporate CEO Wood Badge does harm to the Scoutcraft program promised to American boys by an Act of Congress. It has done so since 1965 when Wood Badge declared war on our Congressional Charter. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Amen to DeaconLance's simple statement of truth. To those who are contemplating taking the course, my suggestion is to wait until the "Wood Badge for the Second Decade of the 21st Century" (WB-21-2) course is offered. That way your Beads will not be rendered worthless when the next corporate leadership fad is introduced. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I am an abject failure at getting or keeping a campfire going. So when the boys are off working on their merit badges, I'm going to be spending the entire day burning my fingers on boxes and boxes of matches trying to get the fire lit so I can cook dinner. That's a Keeper!

packsaddle writes: Just a quick reiteration of things I've already written elsewhere: Daughters often want to do boy scout kinds of things just as much (or more) than boys do. My advice is not to wait for venturing. Go ahead and invest the time and give them these experiences even if there isn't a 'program' out there for them. Do it on your own...just think: no training, no G2SS, The Baden-Powell Scouts have a "Lone Scout" program if your daughter likes badges. See: http://bpscouting.org/ Youth membership = $10 per year Adult membership = $20 per year For $10 a year, don't expect local training or a G2SS. Email Dan'l Adams, Chief Rover and Commissioner, directly because I don't think their Website messaging is working: danl_adams(at)yahoo.com Their program is based on Baden-Powell's own final version of his program. The original unedited (and politically-incorrect) version of the badge requirements can be found at: See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Jeffrey H writes: The badge of rank on a Scout is not an indicator of his knowledge; its only an indicator that he completed the written requirements sometime in the past. For those with an interest in Scouting as a world movement (those who collect material for interesting discussions around the campfire), Jeffrey's statement is a perfect distillation of the difference between the BSA's YMCA-based program, and Baden-Powell's program in the rest of the world (based on "Current Proficiency"). B-P did not call the First Class Badge a "rank," it is a "Proficiency Badge." As the name implies, the badge indicates a Scout's CURRENT proficiency of Scoutcraft Skills, in this case at a First Class level (the level of mastery sufficient to complete the required overnight 14 mile solo backwoods Journey). See: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm A Scout must complete an unsupervised Journey of increasing difficulty for every Badge (in addition to unsupervised Patrol Journeys). See: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm Therefore, he must always be currently proficient in the badges he wears. If a Scout fails to demonstrate current proficiency for any badge on his uniform (Scouts wear all of their badges, except 2nd Class), then he must remove that badge. That is why it is unreasonable for us to expect our Webelos III Eagle Scouts to know how to tie a clove hitch "Rank" badges, on the other hand, refer to current LEADERSHIP position (if any). Leadership is freely-given public service by a Troop's most gifted leaders, not something required for a Proficiency Badge. See "Badges of Rank:" http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/badges.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

jhankins writes: Ah yes, it's the fault of Wood Badge that a boy forgets how to tie a knot if he doesn't use it all the time. It is indeed the fault of the Wood Badge war on Scoutcraft that he doesn't use it all the time: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill. jhankins writes: I grow weary of such implausible arguments. Not as weary as we get of Wood Badge "Storming" :-/ Yours at 300 feet: Kudu

sherminator505 writes: OK, I'll bite. How does the bowline fit into that setup, exactly? We tie the rope to the weight bag with a bowline, and to the lift-bag with two half-hitches. Also required by our dive shop for Advanced Open Water certification (PADI, NAVI, or SDI) is the square knot and, um, the clove hitch. So Eagles beware. See: http://floridafundive.net/ Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

packsaddle writes: I lead them to water Our Scouts were surprised to learn that they were required to tie two half-hitches and a bowline 30 feet below the surface to move a bag of bricks for their Advanced Open Water certification :-/ Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Crack open one of Dan Carter Beard's books and build one of those suckers. Books? Somebody collected all of Daniel Carter Beard's boat plans at the Kudu Net: http://kudu.net/outdoor/summer/boats/index.htm Swimming with the Manatees in FL. Don't remember the details. "Adventure Diving" in Crystal River FL trains all of our Boy Scout SCUBA divers. Great Boy Scout friendly company! They charge $25 each to swim with the manatees, or $59 each (including all gear) to SCUBA with them. Of course if you schedule your Troop's SCUBA instruction during manatee season, they throw in the manatees for free 866-518-1530 Ask for Carl or Dave. See: http://floridafundive.net/ Yours at 300 feet, Kudu