Kudu

"cross their legs"?

Horizon writes: 300 feet? Not a chance in 90% of the sites where we camp. How about the other 10%?

A Frog and a Scorpion sat on the river bank and gazed across the swiftly moving waters. "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride across the river?" asked the Scorpion. "You're crazy!" answered the frog. "If I let you sit on my back you will sting me and we both will drown." "Why would I sting you?" asked the scorpion. "It would not be in my best interest." The scorpion's logic was sound and he seemed sincere, so the frog let him climb onto his back and he hopped into the water. Everything went well until they reached the middle of the river. Then without warning the scorpion stung the frog hard on the back, paralyzing him instantly. The two creatures began to sink. "Why did you sting me?" the frog gasped, "Now we are both going to die." "I don't know," the scorpion answered honestly. "It's just my nature!"

There is a largely unexplored world called "Night Scouting." http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm Note that the index page is arranged to give you immediate access to the Night Games. However you might want to spend some time with the considerable amount of material that follows, then introduce the stuff you like one chapter a month to your own Troop, especially on Friday nights which tend to be wasted. This practical experience can then be transferred to the Camporee. Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

Paraphrasing what Baden-Powell said, draw the boys in with camping, the outdoors, and adventure, then you can hit them with the rest of the program. Stuff like "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" are Fake Baden-Powell quotes that Wood Badge uses to justify its 45 year war on Scoutcraft. There is no "rest of the program" in Baden-Powell's Scouting. It's all camping, outdoor adventure, and public service skills (such as first aid) but on an older teen level as the Scout progresses. For instance, one optional equivalent to an "Eagle Project" is to lead a 200 mile horseback trip through wild country without adult supervision. Compare that to our program where any cupcake can get an Eagle Scout Badge without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Organizing such Expeditions is what B-P called "leadership," not the crap we learn in Wood Badge: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm The boring schoolwork badges like classroom citizenship (everything that Baden-Powell said was the opposite of Scouting), were introduced by the YMCA. Forcing teen Scouts do the kind of things that boys hate, have always hated, and will continue to hate until the end of time was the reason that the YMCA approached Boyce about establishing a monopoly on Scouting in the United States. That's why the program is "lousy," training is run by adults who love schoolwork and office management. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Only if they want to say "I am an Eagle Scout" rather than "I was an Eagle Scout." Of course in Baden-Powell's Scouting what we call "advancement" continues on past King's Scout in Rovers, so an active adult Rover would not need a test out option for Introduction to Outdoor Skills, you just look at his badges: http://inquiry.net/traditional/rover/handbook/index.htm If you feature a monkey bridge or climbing tower at a Camporee and announce that Eagle Scouts get to come to the head of the line, and then charge a knot tying "toll," you will find that about 80% of them can not even tie a clove hitch. "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle" reflects the contempt with which we hold Outdoor Skills. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I agree with LisaBob's observations, but the opposite can happen even in an adult-run program. In our Troop the adults who go on High Adventure trips all were old-school Boy Scouts. So "Back Country Fishing Trips" is where the older Scouts get to plan the trips and camp their Patrols a football field apart. Here in the rural south, the camping season is reversed. The only time we tent in the summer is when we travel way up north to Georgia (so near the arctic pole). This summer we started holding monthly SCUBA dives, which we hope to continue during the winter months. The dives are open to all certified diver Scouts regardless of age (our youngest diver, who skipped a grade, is still ten years old). The divers 13 and older all have Advanced, Junior Advanced Open Water, or Rescue Diver Certification, so they avoid the inexperienced Scouts by diving deeper on Troop Dives, and organizing Night Drift Dives. Since I started placing a heavy emphasis on SCUBA on our Troop Web Site, we have been registering a couple of 13-14 year-olds every month. Their fathers are often certified divers who haven't dived recently but want to get back into it. High Adventure activities often bring in such adults who would not camp on regular Webelos III campouts. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Yes, The difference between an Eagle Scout and a Baden-Powell Scout is Current Proficiency.

Yes, that is the problem with Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (ItOLS), training. Rather than a week-long course that teaches Scoutcraft in a Patrol Leadership context (What you need to know to get your Patrols out hiking), it is weekend course on "How to check things off the Advancement list."

The BSA's so-called "rules," or "policies & procedures" are based on the BSA ignoring the rules set forth in our Congressional Charter: Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. Using the Scoutcraft methods in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916 boils down to the badge requirements at the time, which were remarkably close to Baden-Powell's: http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm The Congressional Charter is the instrument by which the BSA prevents American citizens from establishing Baden-Powell Scouting associations that are based on B-P's principle of "Current Proficiency," which requires Scouts to continually demonstrate mastery of the skills that each badge they wear represents. In Hillcourt's or B-P's Scoutcraft-based Scouting, the purpose of a badge is to indicate at a glance what a Scout can do at that moment (and NOT how close a Scout is to King's Scout or Eagle). This is why B-P placed the first aid badge on both shoulders of the uniform. But unilaterally declaring that you're not going to follow BSA policies & procedures is the wrong way to go The Chief Scout Executive has this very year used the race card to unilaterally declare that he is not going to follow the Scoutcraft policy dictated by the Congressional Charter, because Hispanics supposedly do not like Scoutcraft. So the BSA intends to replace Scoutcraft with "Character and Leadership." In other words, obeying the law is "old fashioned" ("Character") and worshiping CEOs ("Leadership") is modern: "We are deadly serious. We are absolutely serious about this" http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm And what is all this talk about policies and procedures? Eagle92 was a BSA professional, so he may have actually read the official rules and regulations of the BSA, but most of us have not. Instead we sift through BSA publications assuming that they are based on the official rules. For instance, we can deduce from the official SM & ASM Specific Training course that the Patrol Method no longer includes Patrol Leaders but is now defined as Adult Association + EDGE. I doubt there is a specific rule or regulation that outlaws B-P's game of making a Scout take a cloth patch off his Uniform until he can demonstrate Current Proficiency, simply because nobody at BSA HQ would have thought of that That being said, instead I usually asked the SPL or Patrol Leader to bring such Scouts up to speed and put them in charge of helping the PL teach that skill (such teaching is how "retesting" is usually done in Baden-Powell Scouting). In B-P Scouting it is also common practice for the Scoutmaster to put the PLC in charge of what we call "Blue Cards," so that Scouts who do not put enough effort into skills instruction will in turn be delayed from meeting with Proficiency Badge instructors to further their own advancement. We have also lost sight of the central importance of Wide Games in maintaining Current Proficiency. In a small Troop as described by TNScoutTroop, Wide Games can be played with the one Patrol of six to ten Scouts against a Patrol of six adults. See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Some Night Games to make sure the Scouts are all tired out when they go to bed on Friday night. We play "Laser Man Hunt," where the older Scouts (or adults in a small Troop) are required to flash a laser near the hunters every five minutes to keep the game interesting: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm Some Tenderfoot through First Class Scoutcraft games: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/smith/index.htm And of course, nothing makes Scoutcraft skills more real than Physical Distance. Physical Distance is why the 1916 methods specified in our Congressional Charter test a First Class Scout's mastery of Scoutcraft with the 14 mile First Class Journey. In B-P Scouting every badge has a Journey or Expedition of increasing difficulty to test Scoutcraft (50 miles for King's Scout). Physical Distance is why the 1938 SM Handbook places so much importance on regular Troop and Patrol Theme Hikes as entertainment (as opposed to a one-shot five mile hike for 2nd Class). What the BSA called "Real Patrols" were expected to organize their own hikes at least every month or fortnight. Physical Distance is also why Baden-Powell always camped his Patrols at least 300 feet apart. In a new Troop you might want to start at 50 feet and increase the distance (between the Scout Patrol and the adult Patrol) gradually as the Scouts prove themselves. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

We think nothing of retesting the adult-run stuff --Scout Spirit and office Leadership-- with every "Rank" (the term "Rank" is a BSA misnomer), but the Retesting of real Scouting (called Scoutcraft) is the BSA's worst nightmare. In the rest of the world (including Hillcourt's Denmark), retesting is fundamental to Baden-Powell's Scouting. All of the Tenderfoot Badge is retested for Second Class, and all of Second Class for First Class. Even if a a Scout does not "advance," all of his badges are retested every 12-18 months: 432 (2) He must be repassed in all his qualifying badges once between twelve and eighteen months from the date of his being awarded the badge, except in the case of those badges which are marked with an asterisk, i.e., Ambulance Man, Interpreter, Pathfinder, and Signaller, which must be repassed annually in accordance with Rule 436.... He must cease to wear the King's Scout badge should he fail in any of them. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Tn Scout Troop writes: Ironically just after we made that decision, we found in the Hillcourt SM handbook a passage where Hillcourt specifically states that that is the correct approach! Would you please share that with us? Thanks.

OldGreyEagle writes: Hey Kudu, you are right and I was wrong I don't think anyone has ever said that before

Huh?

OldGreyEagle writes: Sounds like an Educational Model to me You are clearly wrong. What part of "Leading" EDGE do you not understand? OldGreyEagle writes: I do not think you want to use the NYLT Curricula to make a point that BSA wants to kill the Patrol Method "Leadership Skills" have already killed what B-P called the the "Patrol System," and what Hillcourt called the "Patrol Method." I do not usually comment on NYLT because I have never staffed it. Those who do, tell me that it is about "Leadership," not the Patrol Method. Sounds to me like NYLT is like the Patrol Method presentation of SM Specific Training, only without the false advertising. Penta writes: Kudu's beating the drum about the evils of the EDGE method and such, and the replies thereto, as one conversation, and the separate conversation about the achievability of becoming trained in necessary skills by an untrained adult. Seems to me it'd be less confusing were the former to be spun off into another thread, but eh. Yeah, when you start a thread with a quote from one side of a heated argument, perhaps you should set some ground rules. For instance: "I am only interested in points of view that support NJCubScouter's assertions. If you believe that Kudu's observations have any merit then please spin that off into another thread." See how simple that is, Penta? Penta writes: 2. BSA could indeed teach everything mentioned. But it seems insane to do it all in one course, to try to do leadership *and* outdoor skills. As in "Leadership Skills" and outdoor skills are mutually exclusive, you mean? It is "insane" only when you present "Leadership" as corporate office skills, and Scoutcraft skills (Scoutcraft means outdoor skills) as something that you check off a list for advancement toward Eagle (ItOLS). There is no requirement that an Eagle Scout need ever have walked into the woods with a pack on his back, so of course it is "insane" to think of leadership (lower case) as the position-specific Scoutcraft training a Patrol Leader needs to guide his Patrol into the woods with packs on their backs. Penta writes: 3. A final point: I'm not really sure it helps people to bang the drum and preach about "Parlor Scouting" or worse. To be totally honest, Kudu and others...If I were the ordinary person reading these threads, I'd be insulted, both by the implications of there being Holy Writ or heresy on a subject like this, "Parlour Scouting" (from a memo to James West) are Baden-Powell's words on the subject of what we now call "Webelos III" camping (Baden-Powell was the guy who invented Scouting, West was the the CSE who at long last finally started the Patrol Method in the United States). If, as you say, you have not been camping since you were a Boy Scout, you have no dog in the fight over Patrol Method, and if you do not like what the inventor of Scouting had to say about Scouting then you should consider becoming a Wood Badge Staffer! You are a natural Baden-Powell invented Wood Badge. Its purpose was to teach leadership that is based on Patrol Scoutcraft (small unit backwoods camping) to volunteers whom, as you write, "(we must presume, for the purposes of any training, come to us totally unskilled) to what is basically a professional position." Penta writes: and by the fact that none of that deals with the reality. Reality? Baden-Powell's and William Hillcourt's Scoutcraft Wood Badge successfully served tens of millions of Scouts worldwide, Penta. That is the "reality." When Scouting was about Scoutcraft rather than "Leadership Skills," it was wildly popular with boys. That is the "reality." If you speak at a school assembly and present Scouting as the kind of "Scoutcraft methods that were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916," more than 70% of 21st century sixth-graders will sign a list asking to join Boy Scouts. That is the "reality." http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm It is only when office workers excluded Baden-Powell's Scoutcraft from Baden-Powell's Wood Badge (as in "Leadership Skills" and outdoor skills are mutually exclusive) that membership went into an immediate and sharp decline, losing two million Boy Scouts in the process. That is the "reality." So if you want this thread to be about your version of "reality," you should set that as a guideline: "Please limit your discussion to training built on failure, because 'that deals with the reality'." Penta writes: Work with what exists, not what you might wish to have, IMHO. Perhaps I misunderstood your topic. So you do not advocate changing training in any way, but rather you wonder if bad training should be done over and over, more like what ARC would be if the Red Cross ignored its Charter in the same way that the BSA ignores ours, and replaced first aid skills with Leadership Skills? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

"The BSA is not a camping club" was the Ken Blanchard Wood Badge slogan from a decade ago with which Leadership Skills advocates defended kicking out the last vestiges of Baden-Powell's Patrol-based Scoutcraft program. It was usually coupled with the BSA's so-called "Mission Statement," but our mission is defined by our Congressional Charter. acco40 writes: The vehicle to which this is accomplished are the methods - which include patrols and the outdoors Scoutcraft is not a mere method. An Act of Congress clearly establishes it as one of the three Purposes of Scouting. Note that our Charter stipulates "the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." That is significant because just as Scoutmaster Training defines the Patrol Method as EDGE, the new handbook passes EDGE off as "Scoutcraft." OldGreyEagle writes: EDGE is an educational model, it is not a supervisory model, EDGE cannot be used to supervise anything acco40 writes: EDGE (Explaining, Demonstrating, Guiding and Enabling) is a teaching method, not a leadership method. It is not only taught to adults but to the Scouts as well via NYLT... NYLT clearly presents the "Leading EDGE" as a leadership method. It is usually coupled with the so-called "Stages of Team Development" 7. Leading EDGE: Describe the 4 leadership approaches included in the Leading Edge (Explaining, Demonstrating, Guiding, Enabling) and apply them to team development 8. Teaching EDGE: Describe the 4 steps of the Teaching Edge (Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable) and how to use effective communications skills as a tool for teaching http://www.brownsea-nylt.org/PDF_files/NYLT_for_Scoutmasters.pdf acco40 writes: Kudu, I just don't get why you feel trying to expose boys to basic leadership styles is the antithesis of the outdoor method. They are not mutually exclusive activities. Yes, why is it that with all the thousands and thousands of people who take Wood Badge, no Scoutmaster in the history of the planet has ever raved about how "Leadership Styles" inspired him to teach his Patrol Leaders how to hike and camp without adult EDGE supervision, or even to camp their Patrols Baden-Powell's 300 feet apart. Leadership advocates have relentlessly attacked Scoutcraft from the year "Leadership Development" was invented up to and including 2010. See my post on Friday, 10/1/2010: 2:26:56 PM. Ever wonder why William Hillcourt is not included in the Scouting Heritage Merit Badge? Leadership Development is based on the destruction of Patrol-based Scoutcraft, his life work: Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scoutcraft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html "Everything is going to be all right" is Wood Badge jargon for "Replacing Scoutcraft with Leadership Skills is worth losing two million Boy Scouts." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

acco40 writes: Yes, EDGE "took the place" in the presentation material of some of the Patrol Method charts but the PLC is still presented... That is why we call Leadership Skills the "Troop Method." Fake Leadership always defines the Patrol Leader and his Patrol within the context of the whole Troop: Sitting in a PLC meeting or cooking and cleaning under adult EDGE supervision, rather than organizing their own Patrol Adventures. acco40 writes: It's not a camping club. Yes it is. The Act of Congress which favors our corporation with a monopoly on Scouting clearly defines the BSA as a "camping club." Despite the contempt with which leadership advocates hold it, our Congressional Charter lists Scoutcraft as a Purpose of Scouting, not a mere method. "Leadership Skills" are not even mentioned: Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://www.kudu.net/

The purpose of passive-aggressive personal attacks is to get readers off the hook. Simply put: Why do we spend the only 25 minutes of adult training devoted to the Patrol Method not on the Patrol Method but on EDGE? How can anyone pretend to discuss Boy Scout Training without accounting for the fact that we completely exclude from the Patrol Method presentation of SM Specific Training, ANY mention of a Patrol Leader and ANY description of a working Patrol? A Bit like Merlyn but Worse, Kudu

William Hillcourt was the first American Wood Badge Course Director. You can't do better than his "Scoutmaster's Tool Chest" as content for a Boy Scout Specific Wood Badge. I would spend two days on "Tool 3Patrol Leaders' Training," and at least a half-day apiece on "Tool 12Troop Hike Ideas," and "Tool 13Wide Games." Troop Hike Ideas and Wide Games are the meat and potatoes of Outdoor Scouting. Some Wide Games: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

The way I heard it was that Cub Scouter participation in training has always been a problem, so they combined the training and aimed Wood Badge at the Least Common Denominator. Supposedly Wolf Den Leaders who glue macaroni to paper cups and Patrol Leaders who take their Patrols camping without adult supervision both use the same "Leadership Skills." Yours at that 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

The Scoutmaster's TOOL CHEST Tool 1Setting Out with the Troop Tool 2Chartering and Registration Tool 3Patrol Leaders' Training Tool 4Patrol Recognition Tool 5Financing the Troop Tool 6Troop Equipment Tool 7Troop Meeting Room Tool 8Troop Records Tool 9Uniforming the Troop Tool 10Program Themes Tool 11Games and Projects Tool 12Troop Hike Ideas Tool 13Wide Games Tool 14Ceremonies Tool 15Scout Drill Tool 16Singing Tool 17Story Telling Tool 18Troop Mobilization Tool 19Literature Helps Tool 20Scout Requirements Yeah, Sherminator505, the 20 Tools are what William Hillcourt called the "Real" Patrol Method! Tool 3 is Patrol Leader Training, the real-world (backwoods) leadership course: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Staffing was never a problem for Boy Scout Wood Badge. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I can't believe that anyone is siding with the Commitee on this. This is why Baden-Powell coined the term "Parlour Scouting" to describe BSA camping requirements: American boys were hampered too by numerous regulations governing the amount of equipment which had to to be taken on expeditions and the exact ratio of adult supervision. Baden-Powell described such highly organized camps as 'Parlour Scouting' (B-P memo to James West, June 1927). In Baden-Powell's Scouting (the standard in the rest of the world) the Patrol Leaders run the Troop. There is no "Troop Committee" of adults. Period. That being said, I have the perfect compromise for Parlour Committee Members who are not required to take even the inferior ItOLS, and leave Wood Badge with a love for the "numerous regulations that hamper expeditions." If you read the BSA camping requirements from Tenderfoot to Eagle, there is absolutely no requirement that an Eagle Scout ever spend a night outdoors. He merely has to have slept in a tent he has pitched. So pitch the tents indoors! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Now I've opened da door for Kudu to come in with a BP-esque soliloquy about "corporate scouting", so I apologize. Passive-aggressive much?

I've never used it as a closer, but consider Baden-Powell's "Eengonyama" War Song. It was sung and acted out all week at the very first Boy Scout campfires on Brownsea Island in 1907. So this is how Baden-Powell did campfires: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm If anyone could send me sound files for "The Scout's Rally" and "The Scout's Call," so I can make them available, I'd appreciate it! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Mr. Moderator, Why do you put so much energy into attacking me?