Kudu

Woapalanne writes: Nope. McDonald's is a private business and not chartered. We went all the way to the Supreme Court to establish that our corporation is a private business. Woapalanne writes: Now, if they were the FIRST to come up with a "hamburger", they could register that as a trademark, That was the point of the Congressional Charter: The BSA needed what we call "Special Rights," because it was not the FIRST to come up with American "Scouting" and therefore could not register the already generic term as a normal trademark. Baden-Powell himself could not register "Scouting" as a trademark because the term "Boy Scouts" had already been coined by popular pulp fiction writers in reference to his military book Aids to Scouting. That is why, unlike the United States, England allows a free market in which its citizens can choose from three (3) competing Scouting associations. The trademark issue has already been discussed in depth: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=175541&p=1 (Note however that the referenced material on youthscouts.org is no longer there because a Left Coast San Francisco judge ruled in favor of the BSA, citing the Congressional Charter. The URL was then snatched up by someone else.) Penta writes: Scouting's main constituency in the US is what? Fairly conservative types, among parents and adults, no? and About that Charter - Yeah...Other than the Report to the Nation PR thing every year, what impact does it have? It seems to me that the new issue in this thread is the juxtaposition of those two questions. Neo-conservatives seem to believe that the Nanny State is a good thing because our government-imposed monopoly corporation has membership policies appropriate to Scouting. If we allowed a free market (as in most of the world), then competing Scouting associations would spring up with the same membership policies found (as far as I know) in every country in the Western World (Baden-Powell's former British Empire at least). So neo-conservatives tend to deflect this issue by moving the discussion to other topics. It seems to me that the issue of Nanny State vs. Unregulated Free Market in Scouting should not be so clear-cut for libertarians and old school conservatives (Goldwater Republicans: They call us RINOs now). Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

Woapalanne writes: Actually, Kudu, I'm conservative enough to feel that each country (or state, a synonym) should have the right to define its institutions in whatever way that best fits their peoples and cultures. As long as the people come first. So to answer Penta's question: Congress should grant McDonald's a monopoly Charter on the term "Hamburger" (and "burger" and "fast food," all synonyms) because the "Golden Arches" best represent our peoples and cultures. They do serve the best fries, after all, and the people come first! Anyone who attends McDonald's training will tell you that broiled burgers are against the rules and therefore (by definition) "old-fashioned." Yours in the Nanny State, Kudu http://kudu.net/

I'm headed out the door to help my Troop set up the "Trail of Fear" for our District's Spook-O-Ree, so I can't give John-in-KC's post the attention it deserves. I do apologize for stating that he is, or ever has been, a Wood Badge Staffer. I should have known: Wood Badge Staffers do not usually speak out against kicking Scoutcraft out of Wood Badge, or kicking the Patrol Leader out of the Patrol Method. I would point out that unlike you, John-in-KC, I never "maliciously insult" any individual volunteer. The point of "OBGYN For Boys" is that every new Leadership Development theory is accompanied with an assault on the very essence of Scouting: Scoutcraft and the Patrol Method. I am also working on an intervention rescue manual for Boy Scouts whose parents are caught up in the Cult of Wood Badge Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

Traditional Scout Staffs and Staves: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/staff.htm

Games are better than policies: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/disabled/index.htm

SR540Beaver writes: Wow! deja vu! I'd swear I've read this before. A formula to make Leadership Formulas? I think not. John-in-KC writes: Thank you for your contribution to the body of sarcastic literature, Rick. For those new to online discussion groups, John is perhaps the only Wood Badge Staffer in the history of the world with the courage to indicate in a public forum that there is anything wrong with Scoutmaster Training taking the Patrol and the Patrol Leader out of the Patrol Method. So John-in-KC is the exception the proves the rule: Wood Badge is a Cult Beavah writes: Aw, shucks, I sorta liked Show-Help-Inspire-Test, CRAPPPO, and LATRINE. The purpose of OBGYN is to teach the Scouts how to build their own LATRINEs! The field of flatulence is also wide open. Beavah writes: IIRC, it's not part of the First Aid MB requirements, but it is standard fare for every Wilderness First Aid and other Wilderness responder courses. Was that a hijack? Oak Tree writes: it's always refreshing to see a topic that not only is spelled correctly but also uses a superscript font. Well done, Kudu. Thanks! I cut and pasted the trademark superscript from the listing of "EDGE" in a BSA intellectual property rights publication. Ironic, huh? Thomas54 writes: I think the OBGYN has exposed festering sore that is both painful and embarrassing to those with intimate knowledge of the situation. Is there no treatment? The problem is that the Congressional Charter only works in one direction. There is currently no controlling authority to force the BSA to live up to its side of the terms of its corporate monopoly on "Scouting." So we are free to ignore the Act of Congress designed to protect future generations of American children with the very specific definition of "Scouting" as "1916 Scoutcraft." That is why Leadership Development always defines "Scouting" as "Ethical and Moral Choices" or "Leadership and Character." Perhaps we should teach our Scouts how to bundle Toxic "Ethical and Moral Choices" over their lifetimes with a corporate Leadership acronym such as: SORE, ABSCESS, BLISTER, PIMPLE, PUSTULE, or TUMOR BartHumphries writes: Ok, it started out good, but then just turned into a rant that sort of stopped being funny. "Rant" is Leadership Development jargon for "I can not refute your logic." Every BSA Leadership Development Formula is bundled with an all-out attack on Scouting: From the 1972 replacement of Scoutcraft with "11 Leadership Skills," to the present day replacement of the Patrol and Patrol Leader with EDGE. BartHumphries writes: Let's go like this instead: Go for it...just do it...Your mileage may vary You forgot "Have a Nice Day" and "I love kittens and puppies." What part of "We are deadly serious. We are absolutely serious about this" don't you understand? http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu

SDI = SCUBA Diving International http://www.floridafundive.net/BSA_Scuba_Merit_Badge_Certification_Crysta_River_FL.html Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

BDPT00 writes: Can you think of a better and simpler way to teach them how to teach? Please share. I'll give it a shot! If "Leadership" is the new goal of Scouting, then let us no longer waste Boy Scouts' time on other people's acronyms. Give our Scouts the "tool kit" they need to make up their own Leadership Formulas and earn millions of dollars in the promising field of Corporate Leadership. This tool kit is called: OBGYN Observe what works in Scouting Break this process down into component parts. Generate an annoying acronym and/or Fake Formula based on the artificial parts of the process. Yank from Scouting the traditional outdoor process that works and replace it with your new Fake Formula. Neuter (castrate, snip, or cut) the program so that your Fake Formula is universal enough to be used by Wolf Den Leaders to glue macaroni onto paper cups, become local District Training Chairs, and provide "Diversity" to key national training and "safety" committees. So, How Does OBGYN Work in Real Life? Leadership Development was formally introduced in 1972. Bela Banathy Observed how "Real" Patrol Leaders physically lead their Patrols on Patrol Outings without adult supervision (What Hillcourt called "Patrol Leadership'). He Broke the Patrol Leaders' fluid outdoor leadership down into artificially separate component "Skills." He Generated a Formula called "Eleven Skills of Leadership." Banathy's partner Dr. John W. Larson then Yanked Scoutcraft (mandated by an Act of Congress) from Hillcourt's Wood Badge, Yanked The "Uniform Method" from Hillcourt's "Methods of Scouting," and Yanked Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (The applied outdoor skills course from which Brent is quoting) away from American Patrol Leaders. (To compare the 1972 "Seven Methods of Scouting" to Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting, see): http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Larson then Neutered BSA Scouting through 1) "Diversity"--allowing "Urban Youth" to earn Eagle Scout without ever going on a single Troop Campout 2) Replaced "Patrol Leader Training" with generic "Junior Leader Training;" which castrated Hillcourt's Scoutcraft (the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid) and replaced it with Fake Leadership Skills: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill. http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm The OBGYN Examination: 1) Describe how Leadership Development used OBGYN to produce Wood Badge for the 21st Century and the EDGE method. 2) Identify which "Purpose of Scouting" mandated by an Act of Congress got kicked out of Wood Badge again. Explain why ignoring the law is an important corporate Leadership Skill. 3) Name the two key components of the Patrol Method that were Yanked from Scoutmaster Specific Training and replaced with "EDGE." 4) Describe how "Diversity" mandates that we spend millions of dollars on translators to accommodate people who hate Scoutcraft. 5) Use OBGYN to create a formula by which Leadership experts on a national safety committee can achieve the Holy Grail of Leadership Development: To make THE goal of Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (Independent Patrol Adventure), against the rules. 6) Show how the OBGYN Method can be used to destroy a still-untouched popular aspect of Scouting such as the BSA Waterfront. Include the benefits of Diversity to non-swimmers who have been excluded from earning their POR as a BSA Lifeguard. Explain the benefits of "Controlled Failure" over "elitism" and competency when dumbing Boy Scout Adventure down to a Cub Scout level Leadership Formula. 7) Leadership Development's war on Scoutcraft caused two million Boy Scouts to leave (or by the BSA's estimate, 30% of membership). Use OBGYN to create a Leadership Formula to destroy something that other boys love. Consider sports such as Baseball, Foot Ball, or Soccer. Explain why a free market is your worst enemy. 8) Using the acronym "BAREFOOT," create your own Leadership Formula to guide other Scouts through POR requirements and regular Troop-wide elections. Using the acronym "PREGNANT," create your own Leadership Formula to guide other Scouts through the process of PLC Meetings, Duty Rosters, and cooking & cleaning for the Troop Method. Explain how Leadership Development keeps boys BAREFOOT and PREGNANT. 9) Conduct a school poll that asks boys to describe "modern" Boy Scouts in one word. The word was "Gay" wasn't it? Use OBGYN to create a Teaching Formula to inform your friends that Boy Scouting is not "Gay," it is Transgendered! Yours at 300 Feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

jhankins writes: The very fact Kudu posted this here and not in the Council relations thread shows yet another way he'd like to blame Wood badge for all the problems in the BSA. The very fact that jhankins does not understand why adult leader training should be based on the actual rules proves that Wood Badge is a cult Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

1) EDGE experts at the very highest national level removed the Patrol and the Patrol Leader from the Patrol Method Presentation of SM Specific Training and replaced them with Adult Association + EDGE. 2) Of all the thousands of readers of Scouter.Com and Scouts-L, only two Wood Badge Staffers have ever indicated that there is anything wrong with removing the Patrol and the Patrol Leader from the Patrol Method. So all we can prove objectively about EDGE is that it is associated with gross incompetency and/or outright malice toward the Patrol Method. Take you pick. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

Presumably you are not conservative enough to recognize that European countries such as England and Germany maintain free markets in which their citizens may form competing Scouting associations, while our Congress favors one corporation with an absolute monopoly on Scouting for all American Citizens. WOSM is just an international cartel of anti-free market Scouting monopolies. Just sayin' Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Twocubdad writes: It is probably foolish and totally unnecessary to point out that Kudu has an agenda. That is ad hominem "Wood Badge Logic." The basic idea is to destroy Patrol-based Adventure (which requires that you stick with each Patrol's best leader), and replace it with a Troop-based PLC with rotating Patrol Leaders so "everybody gets to be a leader." According to Wood Badge Logic anyone who reasons against that must have an "agenda" or a "vested interest." Wood Badge Logic dates back to 1965 when Dr. John Larson destroyed the life-work of the first American Wood Badge Course Director, William Hillcourt. Hillcourt was the man who brought the Patrol Method to the BSA twenty (20) years after every other Scout association in the world began using it: Larson later reported, " He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." "Everything is going to be all right" is Wood Badge jargon for: "We will lose two million Scouts, but killing Hillcourt's 'Patrol Leader Training Course' is the right thing to do." http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Twocubdad writes: I suppose I can join Beavah and add him to the squelch list. Don't let the tent flap hit you on the way out. Twocubdad writes: that should be completely clear to anyone reading his highly perjorative list of true/false questions in this thread In other words you got a perfect score: 22 True Nailed It at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net/

Twocubdad writes: I think the guys promoting that idea don't use PLC's in the first place. So factor that in. That is a lie. So factor that in.

jblake47 writes: Drop the PLC for 1 year and let the patrols plan their own activities designed around their own interests and skill levels. That is a great idea, Stosh! When people go to SM Specific Training, at best they learn that "Patrol Method" = "PLC" Get rid of the PLC for a year and a Troop may discover what Bill Hillcourt called a "Real Patrol." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

What does any of that have to do with "EDGE"? I would never "Explain" anything first. With Scouts I jump right into "Demonstrate." They want to do stuff, not hear about it. With adults I start with "Enable" so they realize they can't do something, like use a compass for instance. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

ntrog8r writes: You can order your own copy through your local council. They will forward your payment and request to national. No, ntrog8r, perhaps "you" can order "your" own copy through "your" local Council, but Council policies vary radically from state to state. In my last Council, the District Executive would submit such a request to the Scout Executive and the SE would ignore it. I was told off the record to have my IH request it. moosetracker writes: ... thats Moosetracker with no space between.... I was referring to Sarah Palin, and she puts a space between. moosetracker writes: And you are still a minority, good - bad - or just different. Sounds like a great idea for a Scoutmaster Minute about Peer Pressure, moosetracker: A Scout can tell right from wrong by whether or not he is in the minority! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

moosetracker writes: Some people disagree that EDGE is a good training method, ... but dont be surprised if they come in dead last at a camporee competition with the other troops first year patrols even beating out your Star & Life scouts. EDGE is a good training method? That is a rather extraordinary claim! You know what they say: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I bet if you took two "New Scout Patrols" of equal aptitude and spent exactly the same number of hours teaching Tenderfoot through First Class skills, the Patrol that did not spend any time on EDGE would beat (at any Camporee competition), the Patrol that wasted time on "EDGE." Shrubber is stuck with his Scoutmaster's interpretation of the requirement, but as others have observed the rest of us can parse the words in the requirement to mean just about anything we want. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

evmori writes: And in about another five years I bet we have another fancy acronym for the same thing! It's already here! Why take your Scout's word for the EDGE requirement, when you can use EDGE EDGE: The acronym that verifies that the EDGE method has been used: Have you: Eliminated Patrol Adventure? Destroyed Scoutcraft-based leadership? Generated useless acronyms? Eradicated leadership measured by distance? Don't Trust, Verify: Apply EDGE EDGE to "The Patrol Method" Presentation of "SM Specific Training." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

CubsRgr8 writes: What do you recommend adult leadership do to jumpstart the PLC and get them out of this rut of repeating the past over and over - without stepping over the boy-led line? Fear of stepping over the boy-led line is a phobia. A phobia often causes an extreme physical and emotional response to the object. It may trigger the fight or flight response due to fear and the perceived threat. Fortunately it can be cured if detected early enough with the appropriate diagnostic tool: Answer True or False: 1) My Troop holds elections every six months so that every one of our 50 Scouts gets a chance to hold a Position of Responsibility (POR) for advancement. 2) My Troop allows Scouts to serve two terms, but being good boys they usually "let someone else have a turn." 3) I believe that training is important: We hold Troop Leader Training (TLT) shortly after every election so that every new office holder can "learn how to be a leader." 4) The Scouts are well-versed in the EDGE method. 5) I hand out leadership position cards that define each position, and with each new leader I go over his new responsibilities. 6) During their six month tenure, they all do a reasonable job of fulfilling the responsibilities as outlined on those cards. 7) Our SPL appoints two ASPLs to supervise the Junior Leaders. 8) "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle" 9) Retesting is wrong. 10) Even though 8 out of the 50 Scouts will attend the upcoming campout, all of our Eagles earned each and every requirement along the way. 11) After they were signed off for First Class, suddenly they had to juggle sports, school, sports, family obligations, sports, chores, and sports against camping. And well, their teams do depend on them! 12) My committee, all of our parents, and I are united in our belief that the test of a true Eagle Scout is his "Leadership and Character," not his current Scoutcraft skills: The BSA is not a camping club! 13) We believe that Scouting is for all boys. 14) Eagle Scout is a worthwhile and achievable goal for every boy, including those who absolutely hate camping. 15) A boy who hates camping can learn many valuable things about responsibility and leadership as a Patrol Leader. 16) I skim past discussions of Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet between Patrols because that stuff is just noise. 17) Besides, in my area, there are no campsites that would accommodate 300 feet between Patrols. 18) If Baden-Powell were alive today, he would be happy that Wood Badge replaced Scoutcraft with Leadership Skills. 19) I skim past discussions of Patrol Outings without adult supervision because that's just irresponsible! 20) I support Wood Badge leadership experts who are now working on the national level to introduce changes to the Guide to Safe Scouting which will finally make Patrol Outings against the rules and more in keeping with the "outside the box" leadership formulas that work so well in corporations (as the golden parachutes proved in 2008). 21) The reason that two million Scouts left as soon as the BSA switched from Scoutcraft to corporate leadership skills is because society changed and now people don't like our values. 22) I actually know the BSA's Mission Statement. Scoring: If you answered "True" to all of the questions, Congratulations! You follow the BSA's 21st century program, so you are not to blame! The reason that only 16% of your Scouts want to go camping is that "modern" boys hate camping. After millions of years of evolution (or 6,000 years of sin), human nature suddenly changed in 1972. Hang in there and try to learn some Spanish so that you can switch to the BSA's new "We Really Do Hate Camping" soccer program when it is offered in your area! Don't like soccer? Not to worry! If millions of boys pour into the BSA for soccer, then the BSA will "broaden the appeal" of soccer by dumbing it down enough to attract boys who hate soccer! If you answered "False" to any question, check out what a PLC meeting is like without office leadership theory: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Note that the Patrol Leaders prove their worth by organizing their own Patrol Outings every month or fortnight without adult supervision. If a Patrol Leader takes his Patrol to "one of its 'regular' locations," the other Patrol Leaders ridicule him. Gasp! Think of what that does to his self-esteem! They need diversity training! Note also that when they organize a Troop Outing, the Patrol Leaders make the key decisions but seem to delegate most of the details to the adults. How are they going to learn "leadership" with all that stepping over the Troop Method's boy-led line, huh? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Oh! And hey! Why don't they have any Troop Elections and POR requirements?

moosetracker writes: TNScouterTroop - It is not that you are trying to run a high standard troop. Kudu & JBlake47 run retroactive high standard troops. Many right now think I might be battling with Kudu over his troop, I am not, merely stating there are things that you can change, and others that you can not ... Kudu ... Kudu... Moosetracker has linked TNScouterTroop, JBlake47, and me with the same general discussion points in three different threads. This is the one in which TNScoutTroop has chosen to respond, so I will reply here. Of course having one of his threads turn into a discussion about "Kudu" is Beavah's worst nightmare, but if nobody says anything, he will never know I was here. I don't know why Moosetracker is stuck on 1912. I will spin off a thread that explains the advantages and disadvantages of all the different Scouting programs over the last 100 years. If you know the difference between Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method," then you can mix and match different Patrol approaches to the personalities of the natural leaders in your Troop at any given time. TNScouterTroop has indicated that he uses Hillcourt's 3rd edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters as a reference. Certainly he will learn more about the "Real" Patrol Method from these 1100 pages (written by the man who brought the Patrol Method from Denmark to the United States) than he will from any current BSA publications or training courses. If he downloads a copy of the current rules and regulations, he will find that despite all the dire predictions of moosetracker and others, the actual rules and regulations allow a considerable amount of flexibility: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919606/Rules-and-Regulations-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919588/Charter-and-Bylaws-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America These electronic versions are superior to the paper versions because you can search on keywords. TNScoutTroop writes: We doubt we'll really be 'competing' with other troops. Our 'market' is boys who've never been Scouts, or boys who gave up on Scouting as they encountered it. Most troops don't want these boys in the first place. That is a good description of how I ran my last Troop. Unlike Stosh, I did NOT want Webelos crossovers! Cub Scouts is mostly a filter that discourages the kind of rough-and-tumble boys for whom my program was geared. Webelos Scouts cross over by the spring of fifth grade, so I went into the local public school at the beginning (or sometimes the end) of sixth grade. If TNScouterTroop reads "Chat 15: His Entry" on page 229 of his HBSM 3rd edition, he will find that a Scout is "invited" into a Troop, and likewise a boy must be "invited" to join a Patrol, he cannot just be assigned. Page 223 quotes surveys at the time indicating "that three boys in every four want to be Scouts." I kept some statistics on my recruiting and found that consistently about 71% of the audience would sign a list (in front of their peers) asking me to call their parents so they could join. If we can assume that 4% of the audience were already in a Scout Troop, then the resulting 75% figure indicates that despite the claims of modernists, 3/4 of sixth-graders still crave the Scouting program as it was described in the HBSM 3rd edition. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm In the beginning I would keep calling the parents until I had about 20 new Scouts registered, but I found that the families that needed the most effort on my part to get them to the first meeting, turned out to be the most dysfunctional after they joined. So I took a page out of Hillcourt's description of "invitations" and consulted the newly registered Scouts as to which of the boys (whose parents might have said OK--or not said "no"-- on the phone but never showed up) they wanted to join the Troop. This reduced the number of new registrations from around 20 to about 15 per year. Usually two or three would drop out right away, those who had been excited by my tales of rattlesnakes and bears, but who proved to be terrified of raccoons (and cat holes) But once word got around, however, we would make that up when the new Scouts brought in friends and older brothers. Yes, older brothers! Two or three older brothers a year. So, as TNScouterTroop says, there are plenty of boys out there who want nothing to do with a regular Scout Troop, but will register with a Traditional Troop (an additional 28% of sixth-graders, to be precise). Now to get back to Beavah's actual topic There is certainly no BSA rule or regulation that prohibits a Troop from testing the skills of a potential Transfer before he is invited to join. Suburban Troops with hardcore outdoor "High Adventure" programs often base admission on aptitude to keep their numbers down to a reasonable number (B-P and Hillcourt's HBSM 3rd edition limit that to 32 Scouts). Remember that the BSA during Hillcourt's HBSM 3rd-5th editions (1938-1972) did NOT push Eagle. "Advancement" was just one subset of what Hillcourt called the "Activities Method." See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm So I only stress Tenderfoot through First Class, which usually took 16-24 months. (One Scout earned First Class in five months, but he had a photographic mind. Two years later when he became Troop Guide, I handed him an axe and he headed to the axe yard with the new Scouts. Our program was based on lightweight camping, so he hadn't handled an axe since then. It turned out that he had not only memorized my "axe speech" from two years before [including all my jokes], but he flawlessly imitated my voice [pauses at key points to get the Scouts attention] and bearing [dramatic body language with an axe to stress a point]. But I digress). Where was I? Oh yeah, the biggest difference between my Troop and everybody else's is that although we had 30 Scouts, we never produced more than one Eagle every two years or so. The Troop I work with now in the rural south has about 40 active Scouts and produces about three Eagles a year. Also, our program was based on physical distance, which requires "Real" Patrols, so with the pressure off Star through Eagle we did not have to hold regular elections to feed the POR beast. Instead we stuck with the best leaders. If a bad leader was gung-ho on Eagle, we found some other POR for him. Even if TNScouterTroop decides to push Advancement, I don't see how anyone could possibly object to him testing a Scout's skills before he is "invited" to transfer in. Scouting is a game, a hard-played game. That being said, I never did. I was more interested in whether a new older Scout had the "Natural Leader" skills to camp a Patrol a football field away from anyone else. Nachamawat brings up some interesting points about Baden-Powell and religion (B-P's father was a very famous and very radical 19th century cleric). But I won't comment on that in this thread. As a matter of fact, if anyone wants to debate anything I have written which is not directly related to how Beavah set up his topic, please spin it off so we can discuss it elsewhere. "A Bit Like Merlyn but Worse," Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

BadenP writes: Mazzucca stated that in one of his first interviews right after being selected CSE. He has a very different vision for the future of scouting, and in my opinion it is not for the better. The basic idea is to replace the Scoutcraft mandated in our Congressional Charter with "Character and Leadership." This has been the goal of Wood Badge since 1965, but it was first introduced the year before he was hired. Note that his description of Scoutcraft (which he belittles as "rubbing two sticks together") in the USA Today article is similar to the description of the Patrol Method in SM Specific Training as "Adult Association": "Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men... "You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character. "We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques." The MSNBC clip of him introducing his goal of recruiting 100,000 Hispanics in 2010 is more to the point: "Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in character development and leadership skill growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us." http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

NJCubScouter writes: (Aside to Kudu: Nobody's dying here, and we are talking about a boy here, who is not necessarily a bad person.) The Frog is a metaphor for the Troop I've seen one toxic family kill a Boy Scout Troop. One of their two sons was not necessarily a bad person either! I'm with moosetracker on this one: Don't promote the Eagle project. A humble camel once begged a traveler, "It is so cold out here in the desert night. Kind sir please allow me to insert my nose into your tent." The traveler considered the camel's request. It was such a humble petition, and the camel was so pitiful, so modest, that it would be cold-hearted not to grant it. Indeed, the camel was so well behaved that when he asked to also stick his neck inside, the traveler relented. After all, the neck did not take up any the floor space. Then the camel placed his fore legs into the tent. He didn't really ask this time, but spat at the traveler and bit him. The traveler spent 50 hours making it clear that this behavior will not be tolerated, but by then the camel had pushed him out of the tent. "It's just my nature," explained the camel. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

In the rest of the world Scouting volunteers are expected not only to own a copy of the rules but, more importantly, be familiar with them! A Scouting rule book is usually called the "Policy, Organization, & Rules" (PO&R). If you have ever attended an international Scouting event, you may have noticed foreign Scouters exchanging copies of their associations' PO&Rs so that they can see at a glance how the other programs are structured. This is more useful in libertarian countries that allow a free market in which its citizens can pick and choose from alternatives a Scouting association best for them. An example of a PO&R can be found at the Inquiry Net, in this case the last PO&R that Baden-Powell himself edited: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm In the United States, the government picks one Scouting corporation for all its citizens. When you join you must agree in writing to obey the rules and regulations of the BSA, but few Americans have ever read them. Indeed, when everyone seems so nice why should you read something before signing it? That would be rude! The closest most of us ever come reading the BSA's actual rules are the sentences we are allowed to view in the Guide to Safe Scouting which appear in bold-face type, so reminiscent of the red type in our Bibles. Presumably it is easier to issue fatwas through the GtSS and Wood Badge than it is to actually change the offical rules and regulations. For instance, my 2007 printing of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America does not mention the GtSS's "rule" against laser tag. Just sayin' sailingpj writes: Hey Kudu, where can one find that two volume set of BSA rules and regulations? Is that something you can order from somewhere or something? I would like to take a look at it. A Scout is Loyal and Obedient! Far be it from me to lead you into temptation, Sailingpj! If you have been to Wood Badge, then you probably want to do things the way the corporation wants you to do them. Certainly you do not want a Wood Badge Moose Tracker to see you "buck" the system. What do you suppose happens to a buck when a Moose Tracker catches up to him? The standard procedure is to call your District Executive and tell him you want to read the BSA's Rules and Regulations. He will usually be surprised and then tell you politely that it is his job to explain all that to you (even if he has not actually read them). If you insist on reading the rules for yourself then obviously you are a trouble maker Council policies on allowing trouble-makers to read the rules and regulations vary widely around the Untied States. On the one hand there are apocryphal reports of the two volume set for sale at the local Scout Shop! Others suggest that your Troop's Institutional Head can easily order a set through your Council's Scout Executive. On the other hand, most Councils require you to make an appointment with the DE or the Scout Executive. Here again the policy varies from Council to Council because understandably there is no official rule about reading the rules. Outsiders would not understand! Reportedly some liberal Councils will allow you to make a photocopy of the rule in question. At the other extreme some Councils have an "eyes only" policy: You can read the rules under close supervision but you are not allowed to take notes. Eagle92 writes: That said, if you google the actual names of the pamphlets, using quotation marks around the title, someone has posted them on a website that allows you to read them and print them, but not save them. Sorry I cannot provide the link, but I found them using my old computer which crashed. Yes, Eagle92, for a small fee we could download our own copies of the BSA's rules and regulations from scribd.com before the BSA slams them with a cease and desist order, "but that would be wrong." http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919606/Rules-and-Regulations-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919588/Charter-and-Bylaws-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Moosetracker writes: Kudo That is Kudu with two u's. Please make a note of it, Mousetracker Moosetracker writes: Everyone runs a different program. My point exactly. Yours is different because it is living in the past As long as Wood Badge continues to use portraits of Baden-Powell and Fake Baden-Powell quotes to lend authority to its corporate "leadership" program, it is my duty to point out how corporate cubical techniques differ from what Baden-Powell considered to be real Scouting. Especially on Scouter.Com, a Website dedicated to William Hillcourt who coined the term "Real Patrol." Moosetracker writes: that and in many ways going against current BSA policy. "Current BSA policy" is in violation of our Congressional Charter, isn't it? The BSA's power to knock out competing Baden-Powell-based Scouting corporations is founded on an Act of Congress that sets as one of the "Purposes" of our corporation the Scoutcraft methods in use on June 15, 1916. So "living in the past" is a just a prejudicial way to ridicule those of us who obey the law rather than peer pressure. Do "modern" corporate "leadership" group-think techniques take precedence over an Act of Congress? Moosetracker writes: You can not expect everyone to follow your ideas and buck the system. Unless you have actually sat down and read the two volume set of official BSA rules and regulations, then Eagle92 (a former BSA professional) probably knows more about what those rules actually are than you do. If you try to guess the rules by reading the BSA publications and training available to BSA volunteers, then you must believe that "current BSA policy" dictates that the "Patrol Method" has replaced Patrols and Patrol Leaders with Adult Association + EDGE. The point is that if you understand how Scouting was designed to work, then you can pick and choose how to operate a Troop within the actual rules and regulations of the BSA (as opposed to the Fake Leadership + Webelos III Scoutcraft program taught in BSA training, which most teenagers have consistently hated since 1972). My last Troop was similar in many of the ways in which Stosh describes his, except that I had access to the local public school for recruiting. That means that I could recruit Scouts by offering them the Scoutcraft methods in use on June 15, 1916. So, in two years I had a Troop of 30 Scouts whose parents were just happy to get them out of the house, rather than ex-Webelos whose parents are more likely to pressure them to earn Eagle. http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Thomas54 writes: Honestly, Jblake47, sometimes your complete montessori approach to governing your troop perplexes me. Would you explain that for us, Thomas54? Baden-Powell was rather proud of the fact that when asked why her program did not continue on into middle school, Montessori replied that (Baden-Powell's version of) Scouting was the perfect application of her principles for older boys. That being said, B-P's program is consistent with Thomas54's observations except that the Patrol Leaders run the Troop, not the SPL. In Baden-Powell's Scouting there is no Troop committee of moms & dads. Period. The Patrol Leaders control the checkbook. Thomas54 writes: There are two major things that decide who runs the troop, the checkbook and the calendar. That is a quote worth remembering. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu