Kudu

Twocubdad writes: Of all the things you choose to get lathered up about, Kudu, I really don't understand why EDGE is such a problem for you. Because EDGE replaced the Patrol Method. We still use the words "Patrol Method," BUT the term refers to EDGE now. That is why the "Patrol Method" presentation of the SM & ASM Specific Training course NEVER mentions a Patrol Leader, and it NEVER describes a working Patrol. Instead the "Patrol Method' presentation explains how adults can use EDGE to supervise generic groups and generic boy-leaders. The Patrol Method is one of the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting." The so-called Leadership Development "Method" now gets a week at Wood Badge, but we devote only 25 minutes of adult training to the Patrol Method. All 25 of those minutes are about how EDGE provides an interface betrween the Adult Association Method and the Leadership Development Method! Likewise Leadership Development took Patrol Leader Specific Training away from Patrol Leaders and replaced it with generic Troop Leader Training (TLT). TLT concentrates on EDGE and those Leadership Position Cards from which a "Real" Patrol Leader's primary responsibility has been removed ("Qualify to take my Patrol hiking and camping"), so that Patrol Leaders can pretend to use EDGE in the Troop Method. I explained all of that in great detail previously in this thread. Cognitive Dissonance? Your Username is "Twocubdad." Maybe Cub Scout training is why you do NOT believe that removing the Patrol and the Patrol Leader from the "Patrol Method" is significant? NJCubScouter writes: ...the 1970s version of "EDGE" probably was, "Manager of Learning." ... I mean, what's wrong with things like "Setting the Example", "Planning" and "Evaluation" (more of the 11 competencies from the 1970's)? ALL good leaders do those things... Is that really so bad? The first thing White Stag's invention of Leadership Development did was take away Patrol Leader Training (How to qualify to take a Patrol hiking and camping), and replaced it with that generic "11 Competencies" Training. Why not do the same thing to BSA Lifeguards, NJCubScouter? A Lifeguard is a "Manager of Learning" just as much as a Patrol Leader is. He Sets the Example, Evaluates, etc. If "ALL good leaders do those things" then why not take BSA Lifeguard's specialized training away from him, like Whitestag training did to Patrol Leaders? What difference does it make if a Lifeguard's Position Card no longer includes "Qualify to take Boy Scouts swimming"? I explained all of that in great detail previously in this thread. Cognitive Dissonance? Your Username is "NJCubScouter." Maybe Cub Scout training is why you do NOT believe taking "Patrol Leader Training" away from Patrol Leaders and replacing it with "Manager of Learning" lessons is significant? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: EDGE is a tool, the same as an Axe, Compass, or stove. No it's not. Ask any Scout who has ever taken an aptitude test: Which does not belong? a) axe, b) compass, c) stove, d) EDGE 100% of the Scouts headed for college will correctly answer "d." Because EDGE is not a real tool. EDGE is imaginary, like leprechauns. OldGreyEagle writes: It is the duty of the Patrol Leader to bring his Patrol up to the skill level of going on Patrol Outings. No it's not. Patrol Outings will soon be against the rules because Patrol Outings are what William Hillcourt defined as what makes a Patrol a "Real Patrol." If you paid attention in SM-Specific Training, you would know that, OGE: It is the duty of the TROOP Guide "POR" and the TROOP Instructor "POR" to teach those skills: That's why we call PORs the "Troop Method." OldGreyEagle writes: EDGE gives a Patrol Leader a plan to teach his patrol members how to select a campsite, make a fire, cook food, read a map and perform orienteering. No it doesn't. EDGE is imaginary: What scientific proof do you have that belief in EDGE has ever taught anything to anybody anywhere any time any better than, say, a belief in leprechauns? Here is a scientific experiment that any Scoutmaster can perform: 1) Divide your Troop into two equal numbers of evenly-matched Patrols. 2) Take half of your "Junior Leaders" on the EDGE-based Troop Leadership Training Weekend. Teach each "Junior Leader" how to Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, and Enable. Be sure to hand out those stupid "Official Leadership Position Cards that define each position in the troop." Make them read and sign them! 3) Take the other half of your "Junior Leaders" on a Weekend Leprechaun Hunt. Hike them a mile into the woods. Have them to select a campsite and make a fire. If they select a stupid campsite, tell them it's a stupid campsite and have them figure out why ("Getting warmer, getting warmer, getting colder"). If they can't make a fire, have them yell out in the dark at the top of those Leave a Trace lungs: "Just use a skill to teach a skill; Leadership is overkill!" Then make another fire for them and stamp it out again until each and every Patrol Leader can start a fire while chanting: "Learning just happens, Start a fire and vent it; Learning just happens, A leader can't prevent it." Be sure to record how long it takes each Scout to start a fire. In the glow of Friday's campfire, use candy as a carrot/stick to bribe/force them to sing or rap the "Compass Bear Song." Compass Bear Song: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/map_compass/index.htm On Saturday morning bring out the Leprechaun Treasure Map and have each Patrol Leader rap the Compass Bear Song as he uses a compass to find the nearest Leprechaun Treasure on the map (which you previously stashed--a generous lunch and candy, lots of candy). That candy is thumb-tacked to two or three times as many trees marked on the Leprechaun Treasure Map as you have Junior Leaders. I use the Skittles snack packs, which are red and easily seen from a distance. And they don't melt here in the south. Also do some leprechaun tracking: Follow the leprechaun tracks in the dirt that you left previously (Unlike EDGE, Tracking is part of the 1916 Scoutcraft program required by the terms of our Congressional Charter). Before the Saturday campfire, hand out the stupid "Official Leadership Position Cards that define each position in the troop." Tell the Scouts what they are, but forbid them to read them or to ever discuss among themselves what their "responsibilities" are. Tell them that the purpose of Leadership Position Cards is to start fires. Prove to them how useful Leadership is by timing how long it takes them to start a fire by burning Leadership Position Cards and then compare that time to how long it took them to start the fire on Friday night without using the TLT course materials! 4) At the next campout divide the Troop into the same Fake Leadership Patrols and Real Scouting Patrols. Have the EDGE "Junior Leaders" Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, and Enable their way through campsite selection, fire making, food, map, and compass. Have the Real Patrol Leaders take their Patrols on a Leprechaun Treasure Hunt. On Sunday have a panel of independent judges examine the Scouts' ability to select a campsite, make a fire, cook food, read a map and perform orienteering. Report back to this thread: Which Patrols did better? The Troop Method sub-units that teach EDGE, or the Real Patrols that hunt leprechauns? Waiting at 300 feet, Kudu American Scout Treasure Hunts: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/treasure_type.htm English Scout Treasure Hunts: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/treasure_type_uk.htm More Scout Treasure Hunts: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/mackenzie/outdoor/treasure_hunts.htm(This message has been edited by kudu)

I write: (i)Quoted text in italics(/i) Where ( = < and ) = > Oh, and you copy the text by highlighting it, then use Control-C to copy it and Control-V to plunk it down somewhere else Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Yes, evidently ASCII art is not WYSIWYG! ....1 .../ | \ 2--S--4 ...\ | / ....3 Each line = 100 yards Penta writes: The notion of 1 tent per 6-8 boys is sort of odd, to me. Wandering around outfitting sites on the web, I can find 4-person tents, but no bigger. A dutiful historical reenactor would carefully fashion the Patrol tents out of canvas, and transport them with a "Trek Cart!" And of course the Scoutmaster would summon the Patrol Leaders with his Kudu Horn Large Patrol tents are more popular in the rest of the world where Baden-Powell's program was used. See, for instance: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/shelter/tents/ski_tour_tent.htm I prefer Scout-owned two or three man tents. They require smaller patches of level ground, and can be transported in a backpack. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

BartHumphries writes: Leadership Skills and Scoutcraft Skills are definitely not mutually exclusive. One only has to look at BP, who was offered the supreme commander spot of the British Armed Forces and turned it down to focus on Scouting. He obviously had Leadership and Scoutcraft skills in spades. Baden-Powell's brand of Leadership is based on Scoutcraft Skills. They are not separate things. That is why his Wood Badge is based on Patrol Scoutcraft with the Patrols separated by 300 feet. His program requires the SM to meet separately with the PLC and/or the Patrol when it needs a new PL, then appoint the best leader. The Patrol sticks with him as long as he continues to lead his Patrol on regular monthly or fortnightly adventures without adult supervision. This is the program that William Hillcourt brought with him from Europe to replace in the 1930s the BSA's adult-run Leadership Skills theory called the "Six Principles of Boy-Work." http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm "Leadership Development" is the exact opposite of that: A specific form of Leadership Skills based on indoor office theory and an outspoken, aggressive, tenacious, and sustained attack on Scoutcraft (as outlined in my previous posts). It takes position-specific Scoutcraft training away from Patrol Leaders, replaces it with EDGE, and imposes POR requirements to encourage a rapid turn-over of Patrol Leaders with the goal of teaching every Scout in a Troop "how to be a leader." BartHumphries writes: The "Leadership Development Method" is really a fancy way of saying, "The leader doesn't have to be the best at everything and likely won't be the best at everything -- learn how to work well with other people." Exactly! Social skills in the place of Scoutcraft Skills. That is why we hear so much about adult-supervised "Controlled Failure" from Wood Badge graduates: An empty virtue based on the incompetence caused by replacing meat & potatoes Scoutcraft with ice cream parlour EDGE. Leadership Development has always consciously opposed Baden-Powell's brand of backwoods Leadership called "Current Scoutcraft Proficiency." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Baden-Powell describes the setup as the Scoutmaster located in the center of a rough circle of Patrols so that the Patrol Leaders can hear him call. Note that the Patrols are camped a football field apart from each other. The object is not just to separate one large cluster of Scout Patrols from the adults. Object of Camping So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit. http://inquiry.net/patrol/traditional/100_yards.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I fail to see how teaching Leadership Priciples and educational techniques such as EDGE is contrary to what B-P is taking about It is contrary because as B-P says in the audio clip, "but remember that you can not give them character through ordinary classroom methods." Baden-Powell did not list "Leadership" as a goal of Scouting. "Character" was the direct result of REAL Scoutcraft Competency: 1) An individual "Journey" or "Expedition" as the Final Test for Every Badge. Without any Adults or Older Scouts: Eight miles for Second Class, Fifteen miles for First Class, Fifty for King's Scout. http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm 2) Regular Monthly or Fortnightly Patrol Outings as described in the parent thread. See, for instance, the PLC session in which a Patrol Leader is ridiculed for conducting the same old eight-mile hike too many times: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm 3) Patrol Leaders Run the Troop: No, really, the Patrol Leaders Run the Troop! That means that Patrols are for Patrol Outings, so a Patrol sticks with the best leader. Service as Patrol Leader does not count toward what we call advancement. Patrols are NOT used to teach "Leadership" formulas. Note also in the above meeting that the Scoutmaster learns FROM the Patrol Leaders which Scouts are now Tenderfoot, Second Class, or First Class. That means no adult-run "Troop Committees," Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, Blue Cards, or Kiss-My-Ethical-Adult-Ass "Scout Spirit" Requirements. 4) Constant Retesting: Each and Every Scoutcraft and Public Service Badge is retested EVERY twelve to eighteen months. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle:" #432(2) He must be repassed in all his qualifying badges once between twelve and eighteen months from the date of his being awarded the badge, except in the case of those badges which are marked with an asterisk, i.e., Ambulance Man, Interpreter, Pathfinder, and Signaller, which must be repassed annually in accordance with Rule 436...He must cease to wear the King's Scout badge should he fail in any of them. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

"The public thinks that scouting is about creating a wilderness survivalist with First Aid, Firebuilding, and Knot tying skills. BSA thinks scouting is about developing personal self worth, confidence, and leadership that just happens to take place outdoors." sherminator505 writes: How did this get turned around on us? Because premise of this thread is absolutely wrong: NJCubScouter said: "Personally I think that Scoutmasters and ASM's ... need to be well-trained in outdoor skills AND leadership skills... The two (or more) are not mutually exclusive." Leadership Skills and Scoutcraft Skills ARE mutually exclusive, and they have been since the invention of the so-called "Leadership Development Method:" In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on LEADERSHIP SKILLS rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his LEADERSHIP SKILL. www.inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm This anti-Scoutcraft premise for Leadership Development continues to this day, for instance Wood Badge for the 21st Century (WB21) which removed the last vestiges of Baden-Powell & William Hillcourt's Scoutcraft-based Leadership, and replaced it with Wolf Den Leaders and boxes of tissue. The spawn of WB21, Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (ITOLS), has nothing to with "Outdoor Leadership," as the name implies. It is a "sign off Tenderfoot through First Class in two days" course, which corresponds to the national trend to sign off "90 percent" of Tenderfoot through First Class requirements in fifteen hours at summer camp. In fact some summer camps now offer ITOLS in the form of adults "sitting side by side" with first-year Scouts as they earn "90%" of Tenderfoot through First Class in fifteen hours. You can teach a kid about CHARACTER and LEADERSHIP using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character (Chief Scout Executive Mazzuca). www.inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm This on-going hatred of Scoutcraft by outspoken "Leadership Skills" promoters like CSE Mazzuca can be seen in his media blitz to recruit a yearly quota of 100,000 Hispanic boys who hate camping: Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in CHARACTER development and LEADERSHIP SKILL growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us. http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm At its core, Leadership Development is based on CEO-cult "outside the box" thinking in which no true believer dares question the premise that you can get something for nothing, and not end up with tens of trillions of dollars in toxic assets, for instance. In Scouting this toxic something-for-nothing Leadership cult thinking translates to the mind-numbing premise that you can take position-specific Scoutcraft training away from Patrol Leaders, enforce their rapid turn-over through the imposition POR requirements for advancement, and then replace Patrol Leader Scoutcraft competency with adult-supervised "controlled failure," without losing millions of Boy Scouts in the process (or that the loss of millions of Boy Scouts is an acceptable trade-off for the CEO "Leadership" Skills that adults find more worthwhile than Scoutcraft). Leadership Skills and the Patrol Method (as defined by Baden-Powell or Green Bar Bill) are also mutually exclusive. Belief in Leadership Skills causes cognitive dissonance. It is physically impossible for anyone who believes in "Leadership" formulas, to perceive (much less acknowledge or explain) why the Patrol Leader and ANY description of a working Patrol have been removed from the Patrol Method presentation of SM & ASM Specific Training (and replaced with Fake Leadership EDGE theory). The Patrol Method Presentation, mind you! Try the scientific method for yourself: Find a Wood Badge Course Director, point out that the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol are missing from the Patrol Method presentation of SM-Specific Training, and see what happens. Physically impossible! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

METABS = Mass Exodus to Anything but Scouting

EDGE E = Eliminate Scoutcraft Competency D = Destroy the Patrol Method G = Generate Meaningless Acronyms E = Enable Boy METABS

The current SM, SPL, and PL handbooks all have the exact same wording: Patrol Activities Most Patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules: The Scoutmaster approves of the patrol activity The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function. A patrol activity without adult supervision should be allowed only when it has been thoroughly planned well within the patrol members levels of training and responsibility. If the Scoutmaster has any doubts, he should encourage the patrol to reconsider its plans, or should assign adults to accompany the patrol during the activity in question. That being said, it is (or was) only a matter of time before "overnighters" will be deleted in the printed publications, because we no longer offer official position-specific training for Patrol Leaders on how to do that. If we took position-specific training away from BSA Lifeguards and replaced it with the same EDGE theory we teach Patrol Leaders, then it would only be a matter of time before leadership experts would not allow Boy Scouts to swim in water over their heads either, and rightly so. CA_Scouter writes: I am a failure as a SM. You fight the good fight. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt wrote: "Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon as the Patrol Leader has been trained and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves...It should be your goal to get your Patrol Leaders qualified for hike and camp leadership at an early stage." (Scoutmaster Handbook, 5th ed, page 118). It is ironic that leadership experts in the national committees are calling for the official end of his Patrol Method to coincide with the BSA's corporate centennial. Again, it all depends on who at your Council office answers the call. My local DE still allows tour permits for Patrol camping without any adult supervision. As others have pointed out, your trip has two-deep leadership in the general area. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

CA_Scouter writes: "So.. does the BSA permit the older scout patrol to go without adult supervision or not?" I answered your question with specific page references. I even gave you good advice about not picking a fresh DE who is likely to panic and say "no." How did that telephone conversation go, by the way? The problem is that the BSA is the only Scouting association in the world that does not issue every member a copy of the official rules and regulations (usually called the "Policy, Organization, and Rules"). For Example, B-P's last PO&R: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/index.htm Most Americans do not have a copy of the BSA's actual rules, so we have to guess by reading handbooks and asking BSA professionals or Wood Badge experts. CA_Scouter writes: IMHO - threads should be closed when they veer so far off topic that the entire original message is forgotten That will teach you to never again post to get a few comments/opinions...., now won't it? Like it or not, all questions about Patrol Overnights policy are directly related to Leadership Development's removal of Patrol Leader Training (which taught Patrol Leaders how to conduct Patrol Outings), and its replacement with "leadership" formulas. The removal of the Patrol Leader and ANY description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of the current SM-Specific Training (and replacing them with 20 minutes of EDGE theory), is just more of the same: The consistent nature of what leadership theory does to real-world backwoods leadership. You may not like the big picture, but there it is! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

OldGreyEagle Sorry if you think being labeled a bully is an "ad hominem" attack, I call it calling a spade a spade You are not "sorry," OGE, because your posts are textbook examples of ad hominem, something that a Scouter.Com Moderator should understand. The question remains: How could any Boy Scout training leave the Patrol Leader and a description of a working Patrol out of a Patrol Method presentation? The answer to that question explains why Committee members (like those in CA_Scouter's Troop) all over the United States veto the most fundamental function of a Patrol--at least according to B-P and William Hillcourt (see the "Site Dedication" on the lower right-hand side of this screen). The reason that you can not rationally discuss these issues, OGE, is your emotional reaction to the fact that unlike Shortridge, "I really, really, REALLY" do NOT "hate to post" the obvious: National committees of Wood Badge experts are hard at work removing "and overnighters" from descriptions of Patrol activities "independent of the troop and free of adult leadership," while at the same time offering boxes of tissue to weepy Wolf Den Leaders enrolled in their new fake leadership for the 21st century course. Until the Wolf Den Leadership experts finish editing the official Boy Scout handbooks, the full uncensored version of Patrol Overnighters can still be found at: Scoutmaster Handbook: Page 22 SPL Handbook: Page 28 Patrol Leader Handbook: Page 28. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: What it is my dear Kudu is me standing up to a long time bully, I do not appreciate your style That is the point, isn't it Mr. Moderator? It is impossible to explain Wood Badge's destruction of William Hillcourt's Patrol Method, except through ad hominem attacks. In fact the first such recorded ad hominem attack was launched in 1965 by Dr. John W. Larson (the inventor of Leadership Development Wood Badge) against William Hillcourt himself: http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Perhaps you should take a day off from your Moderator duties and study Wood Badge Logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem In the meantime, my question to all Wood Badge Staffers is straightforward enough: Why did the nation's top "Leadership Development" experts leave the Patrol Leader and a description of a working Patrol out of the "Patrol Method" presentation of SM-Specific Training? Sheer Stupidity or Absolute Evil? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Can we just do the program and not worry about what the rumors are or is paranoia taught in the pre 1972 Wood Badge Curriculum because it is not currently and at least that simple fact should be seen as an improvement Can we just do a sentence diagram? And no, I am not attacking Kudu personally that would not be nice, but I am wearing a bit thin on his use of language such as "Wood Badge Idiots" so I guess I would say I am mocking him, which is different than attacking him I do like your capitalization of "Idiots." That confers upon Wood Badge Idiocy its rightful status as a commonly recognized Program Element Simply put: Wood Badge makes you stupid. Well, OK: Stupid or evil. How else do you explain why, in the "Patrol Method" presentation of "Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training," there is no mention of a Patrol Leader, nor is there a description of a working Patrol? The Patrol Method presentation, mind you. Can we just do the program, OGE? There is no Program Element more basic to Scouting than the Patrol Method. As UCEagle72 points out, Patrol Outings are the purpose of the Patrol Method. At least they were before the 1972 invention of Leadership Development took Hillcourt's (Patrol Outing) Patrol Leader Training course away from Patrol Leaders and replaced it with fake leadership formulas. http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Why do you suppose EVERY Boy Scout leader does not know about Patrol Outings, let alone how to train their Patrol Leaders to practice them (if only in the context of CA_Scouter's proposal, or B-P's 300 feet)? Maybe because the Wood Badge Idiots replaced Patrols and Patrol Leaders with pointers on Adult EDGE Supervision? How do you leave the Patrol Leader out of the Patrol Method? How do you leave a description of a working Patrol out of the Patrol Method? It is either Sheer Stupidity or Absolute Evil. Sheer Stupidity gives Wood Badge Idiots the benefit of the doubt! Absolute Evil puts Leadership Development's intentional switch from Patrol Outings to Leadership Development Wood Badge (Adult EDGE "Controlled Failure") in the larger context of the tens of trillions of dollars that similar CEO worship "leadership" training cost the world So which is it Old Grey Eagle? Removing the Patrol Method from the Patrol Method presentation of SM-Specific Training: Sheer Stupidity or Absolute Evil? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

ScoutMythBuster writes: I live in an urban area. We have alot of boys interested and in need of all of the positive things we Scouters have to offer. Problem is, not enough adult Scouters. When I was SM of an urban Troop in the north, I sometimes had the same problem with monthly "all the positive things we have to offer" campouts. High Adventure outings such as canoe trips and backpacking (what the rest of the Scouting world calls "Expeditions"), tended to attract experienced adults who wanted nothing to do with the regular monthly campouts (what the rest of the world calls "static camping"). Now here in the rural south, I live a couple blocks from the District's largest Troop. We have plenty of ASM's for monthly static camping, plus a few additional dads who only turn out for Expeditions (a new thing for this Troop), and regular monthly SCUBA outings (a new thing for me). So rather than thinking of Scouting as values ("all of the positive things we Scouters have to offer"), you might pick up a couple of adults for specific Expeditions if you think in terms of Scouting as different kinds of outings. That ad hoc approach was how Rovers worked: A series of short-term commitments. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

I use Patrol Outings as the "surprise ending" to the absolutely dreadful "Patrol Method" presentation of "SM & ASM Specific Training" when I staff it. Of course there is no mention of the Patrol Method in the Patrol Method session because national Wood Badge experts removed the Patrol Leaders to make room for adult EDGE supervision. The entire so-called "Patrol Method" session is actually about the "Adult Association" Method. In the beginning we are supposed to ask if any of the participants have any concerns about campouts. Usually nobody says anything, so I say: "OK, so everybody here is OK with dropping your Scouts off on Friday night and saying 'We adults will meet you here Sunday morning. Have a nice weekend, and remember that we TRUST you!'" The participants break up laughing and I lead a brief discussion to figure out which four of them are the most outspoken advocates of helicopter Scouting. Then I lead them through the required fake leadership EDGE method until we get to "Enable." I read Hillcourt's definition of a "Real Patrol," and to the four future Wood Badge idiots I hand out the following: The Guide to Safe Scouting: Page 3 The Scoutmaster Handbook: Page 22 The SPL Handbook: Page 28 The Patrol Leader Handbook: Page 28. Then I have the four of them read out-loud the passages about "overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership..." I do suggest that before they try that, they first experiment with Baden-Powell's minimum standard on Troop campouts of 300 feet between Patrols ("Just like you will do at Wood Badge"), with the actual distance of each Patrol based on its maturity. CA_Scouter writes: I'll be calling council later today but thought I post to get a few comments/opinions.... Rumor has it that the national safety committee was shocked to discover that Patrols are still allowed to do what both Baden-Powell's Patrol System and Green Bar Bill's BSA Patrol Method were designed to do (before the invention of "Leadership Development," of course). So they are now working overtime to officially stamp out the Patrol Method in time to celebrate the BSA's corporate centennial So, you might want to think about exactly WHO you want to talk to when you call Council. I'd look for an old-timer who is more likely to say "yes" than a fresh DE who might panic and say "no." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

I'd ask him to tie a clove hitch.

Shortridge writes: Communications skills are indeed critical to leadership. The most highly skilled Patrol Leader isn't going to have much luck taking his patrol on a wilderness trek if he can't articulate the plan to anyone. Seemingly no adult would disagree with those statements, but they form a non sequitur, don't they? The implication is that if we teach "Communication Skills," then Patrol Leaders will "articulate plans" to "take their Patrols on wilderness treks." Since the introduction of "Leadership Skills," how many Patrol Leaders can still do that without adult EDGE supervision? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? Before the invention of Boy Scout "Leadership Skills," the purpose of BSA Patrol Leader Training was exactly that: To teach a Patrol Leader how to take his Patrol on treks. That was accomplished not by teaching "Communication Skills" but by forming a "Green Bar Patrol" with the SM as Patrol Leader, the SPL as APL, and the Patrol Leaders as Patrol members. To learn by doing: A setting like this is practically a duplication of the conditions these boys have in their own Patrols. the result is that the boys can put the training you give them to immediate use in running their weekly Patrol meetings, taking their Patrols on hikes, and doing Patrol camping [capitalization in the original]. Note that the goal of Patrol Leader Training is very specific: unsupervised Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes and Patrol Camping: Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon the the Patrol Leader has been trained and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves, have learned to respect growing crops and live trees, to avoid unnecessary danger, and in all ways conduct themselves as Scouts...It should be your goal to get your Patrol Leaders qualified for hike and camp leadership at an early stage. The BSA called a Patrol that hikes and camps on its own a "Real Patrol." "Communications Skills" are designed for office cubicles, not wilderness treks. That is why "Leadership Skills" advocates keep Patrol Leaders on such a short leash: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill. http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm In fact the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster & Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training eliminates the Patrol Leader altogether, and replaces him with pointers on adult EDGE supervision. Shortridge writes: But that's really not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a formal project proposal much like is done in the business world. It's not a test of a Scout's communications skills with his peers, but rather a question of how well he can communicate with the adults who must approve the project. Exactly. In Baden-Powell's Scouting the final project is a 50 mile Expedition with his peers. With the introduction of indoor "Communication Skills," Eagle Scout has been dumbed down so far that any indoor boy can earn it without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Such Eagle Scouts are not worthy of Baden-Powell's First Class badge, which requires the 15 mile unsupervised "First Class Journey," and the constant retesting of Scoutcraft skills. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu(This message has been edited by kudu)

As a Counselor for Personal Management, I do the same for that requirement. Write it out completely, make it so that it stands on its own without the need for you to explain anything. The ability to communicate clearly without need to additional explanation is a Leadership skill that any good Patrol Leader should have. The "Old School" purpose of a Patrol Leader is to physically "lead" his Patrol on hikes without adult supervision with the clear goal of camping without adult supervision. That is why Baden-Powell did not hold popularity contests for Patrol Leader, in the same way that most Troops do not yet hold elections for BSA Lifeguard. Since we no longer practice anything remotely resembling the real-world "Leadership Skills" required for either Baden-Powell's Patrol System or Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method, maybe we should replace elections with "Patrol Leadership Project Workbooks." That way a Patrol could select its Patrol Leader based on his paper "Leadership Skills" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

specifically with one "old school" scouter who takes pride in making EBOR's difficult. A real "Old School" Scouter would point out that schoolwork Eagles and their adult "poor wording and grammatical error" enablers are the very essence of what Baden-Powell described as the opposite of Scouting. Then I'd remind him that he should be putting his best foot forward with the Eagle App and project report. I'd remind him that the only writing an Eagle candidate should do is a log of "putting his best foot forward" on a 50 mile Journey (200 on horseback), unsupervised with a couple of Life Scout buddies. That is the proper definition of "Old School" Scouting! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu King's Scout Senior Explorer Badge Take part in an expedition with not less than 3 and not more than 5 other Scouts. The expedition may be on foot, boat, or on horseback. The expedition must be planned to last at least 4 days, and at least 3 nights must be spent in tents. All necessary equipment and food must be taken and all meals prepared by members of the party. All Scouts in the party will take an equal part in the planning arrangements before and during the expedition, but it is not necessary that all participants should be under test. A detailed log of the expedition must be kept be each member of the party, having previously agreed between themselves a different emphasis for each log - eg weather, geography, history, architecture, archaeology, botany, ornithology. The route and special log subjects must have the prior approval of the examiner. An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites. An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 200 miles. In wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part. http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm

The punchline is soon-to-be-mandatory SM-Specific Training in which fake leadership EDGE theory replaced the Patrol Method. The day they ask me to use my district training staff to teach soccer, and computers(for more then TroopMaster & rechartering) is the day I will pull up stakes on my tent If the CSE meets his 2010 goal to recruit 100,000 Hispanics who hate camping, Wood Badge will simply switch its office manager metaphors from office "leadership" to business sports metaphors like Denis Waitley's "Course in Winning." Wood Badge Staffers will start saying stuff like, "Wood Badge has always been about coaching" and "Baden-Powell himself said soccer is a game with a purpose"! Punchline, moosetracker? "We are deadly serious. We are absolutely serious about this!" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Last I heard, and this is such a BIG surprise, the pilot councils were having problems with training records. That is a BIG surprise! Obviously Wood Badge has not gone far enough in replacing Scoutcraft with office manager formulas! Maybe if mandatory training concentrated more on the kind of Fake Leadership skills that replaced the Patrol Method with EDGE in SM-Specific Training, those mandatory misinformation records would not have been lost. Rather than hiring translators to teach "character development and leadership skill growth" to 100,000 Hispanics who hate Scoutcraft, maybe we could spend the money on more Toxic Leadership experts from Merrill Lynch and Lehman Brothers to think outside the box for us. to give traction to these programs, and that's a major resource issue for us and one that we are willing to invest in as we go forward... We are deadly serious. We are absolutely serious about this. http://www.inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

The "Kudu Net" includes 2,000 pages of Traditional Scout literature. Traditional Scout Games: http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/games/index.htm Note especially the collection of 84 Wide Games, without which the "Game with a Purpose" has no purpose http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm Scouting is about adventure, and Night Games add inexpensive adventure to any program: http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/night/index.htm Advancement games by Charles F. Smith: http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/games/smith/index.htm A collection of Traditional Scoutcraft Skills: http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/skills/index.htm Training in Tracking (for the Centennial Tracking Merit Badge): http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/skills/tracking/index.htm Bando writes: Those Dan Beard boat plans are really quite cool! All of Dan Beard's boat plans: http://www.kudu.net/outdoor/summer/boats/index.htm A collection of Dan Beard books: http://www.kudu.net/traditional/beard/index.htm For those reading David Scott's The Scouting Party, Dan Beard's entire handbook The Boy Pioneers: Sons of Daniel Boone: http://www.kudu.net/traditional/beard/pioneers/index.htm And Ernest Thompson Seton's entire handbook, The Birch Bark Roll: http://www.kudu.net/traditional/seton/index.htm Beard's version of the history of Scouting from his autobiography, Hardly A Man Is Now Alive. http://www.kudu.net/traditional/beard/scouting.htm Baden-Powell's final version of "Rules on How to Play the Game of Scouting for Boys" [see especially Rule #430(9)]: http://www.kudu.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm A history of the "Methods of Scouting" (see especially 1947): http://www.kudu.net/adult/methods/index.htm To see how Baden-Powell's Patrol System works in "real life" (where a Patrol Leader is chided for always taking his Patrol on the same old eight mile hike to explore the old mill--without adult supervision, of course): http://www.kudu.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Patrol Leader Training (how to train Patrol Leaders to lead a Patrol without adult EDGE supervision): http://www.kudu.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm And most importantly, Baden-Powell's minimum standard for spacing Patrols apart when camping as a Troop http://www.kudu.net/patrol/traditional/100_yards.htm Yours at 300 feet: Kudu http://kudu.net/

CalicoPenn writes: James West had tried to convince the Girl Scouts to rename themselves the Girl Guides for many years. I'm with West on that. What the GSUSA does is not "Scouting," likewise for what B-P called "Wolf Cubs." The same is true for replacing Scoutcraft with values: The definition of Scouting as "making ethical decisions" or as "Leadership and Character." No wonder most red-blooded American boys snicker when they hear the word "Scouting." CalicoPenn writes: By the way, can someone tell us the differences between the "methods" of the Boy Scouts of 1916 and today? Yes. For a 108 year history of the methods of "Scouting," see: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm CalicoPenn writes: I see an awful lot of similarities - uniforming, advancement, teaching outdoors skills, etc. At that time nobody was abstracting the process with the so-called "Eight Methods" theory. The BSA was using a leadership experts theory called the "Six Principles of Boy-Work" to stamp out Baden-Powell's Patrol System in the United States: The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [emphasis added]. http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm On September 21, 1923 James West introduced a watered-down version of B-P's Patrol System called the "Patrol Method" but it did not take off until the late 1930s when William Hillcourt's third edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters was published. When William Hillcourt retired in 1965, a new leadership experts theory called "Leadership Development" declared war on the Congressional Charter (Scoutcraft) and put the Patrol Method back on a short Troop Method leash: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm CalicoPenn writes: I don't think anyone would have any real leg to stand on by insisting on the "methods of 1916" language. If you have enough lawyers and "are deadly serious...absolutely serious about this" (replacing Scoutcraft with soccer) you can cut off anyone's legs to stand on: Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in character development and leadership skill growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us. ...when we say 'we want to take your twelve-year-old son but you can't come' we're making a mistake there. We have to engage an entire family... For example one of our pilot programs over the last recent years has been Scouting and soccer... It's crucial to us that we recognize the importance of hiring bilingual staff ... to give traction to these programs, and that's a major resource issue for us and one that we are willing to invest in as we go forward... We are deadly serious. We are absolutely serious about this. http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)