Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: It wasn't stopping the runaway horse that confused me, it was having a scout fast enough to catch the runaway horse that has me baffled. What red-blooded American boy would not want to know "how to help in case of a runaway horse"? To find out how well the CSE's anti-Scoutcraft "Be Prepared. For Life" message resonates with Boy Scouts, simply put it to a vote at your next Troop meeting: "You have a choice tonight. Would you rather learn how to stop a runaway horse, or learn how to use the EDGE method to teach the square knot?" My guess is that most of your Boy Scouts would prefer "old-fashioned" 1911 adventure to our 2011 double-chin program. When I took Wood Badge, the SPL also used the runaway horse requirement to sneer at Scoutcraft. There seems to be a very high correlation between adults who love office "leadership" theory and the conviction that "21st century boys" hate Scoutcraft as much as they do. What a great Wood Badge Ticket research project, huh? For some reason the runaway horse requirement always reminded me of the 1990s report of a couple of Eagle Scouts who tackled a gunman in a school cafeteria. OldGreyEagle writes: Then there is the way to deal with a "mad" dog. Either kick it in the jaw or "find a stick" and kill it? Again, what red-blooded American boy would not want to know how to kill a rabid dog? The current handbook still presents killing as an option ("Do not kill the animal unless necessary"). The difference is that we no longer offer practical suggestions on how to do it. I used to use my "Scoutmaster Minute" time to read a short passage from one of those "quicksand/alligators/volcanoes" survival books. Back when Scouting was popular with boys, it was based on their natural desire to know what to do in any situation. Boys still find that naturally satisfying, like when their bat connects perfectly with a ball. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Scuba Diving Merit Badge: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

Oops! Wrong thread, but still relevant

OldGreyEagle writes: It wasn't stopping the runaway horse that confused me, it was having a scout fast enough to catch the runaway horse that has me baffled. What red-blooded American boy would not want to know "how to help in case of a runaway horse"? To find out how well the CSE's anti-Scoutcraft "Be Prepared. For Life" message resonates with Boy Scouts, simply put it to a vote at your next Troop meeting: "You have a choice tonight. Would you rather learn how to stop a runaway horse, or learn how to use the EDGE method to teach the square knot?" My guess is that most of your Boy Scouts would prefer "old-fashioned" 1911 adventure to our 2011 double-chin program. When I took Wood Badge, the SPL also used the runaway horse requirement to sneer at Scoutcraft. There seems to be a very high correlation between adults who love office "leadership" theory and the conviction that "21st century boys" hate Scoutcraft as much as they do. What a great Wood Badge Ticket research project, huh? For some reason the runaway horse requirement always reminded me of the 1990s report of a couple of Eagle Scouts who tackled a gunman in a school cafeteria. OldGreyEagle writes: Then there is the way to deal with a "mad" dog. Either kick it in the jaw or "find a stick" and kill it? Again, what red-blooded American boy would not want to know how to kill a rabid dog? The current handbook still presents killing as an option ("Do not kill the animal unless necessary"). The difference is that we no longer offer practical suggestions on how to do it. I used to use my "Scoutmaster Minute" time to read a short passage from one of those "quicksand/alligators/volcanoes" survival books. Back when Scouting was popular with boys, it was based on their natural desire to know what to do in any situation. Boys still find that naturally satisfying, like when their bat connects perfectly with a ball. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Scuba Diving Merit Badge: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm

I agree: Boys who drop out of Cub Scouts (or knew better than to join in the first place) make better Boy Scouts in a Troop based on Baden-Powell's and Green Bar Bill's "old-fashioned" outdoor adventure. The place to find them is in the public schools. You can easily register 28% of the sixth-graders if you use this recruiting presentation during school hours: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm In theory you could use the same presentation in other venues, but it is based on the power of peer-pressure which works better in large groups. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

For me the big news was that our CSE replaced his 2010 theme, "Hispanics Hate Camping," with a new one: "Prepared. For Life." Wood Badge enthusiasts will be pleased to hear that Mr. Mazzuca dug up Leadership Development's "Runaway Horse" justification for attacking the Scoutcraft skills once taught at Wood Badge (back when boys liked Scouting) and specified in our Congressional Charter as one of the Three Purposes of Scouting. Runaway Horse is it? So who says that BSA millionaires don't read the Scouter.Com Forums? (Hi Bob!) Bottom Line? You have to admire the ability of "Second Century Scouting" advocates to stay on message, no matter what (If life hands you lemons, discuss Diet Coke). Really, check this one out: As we move into this second century we have the opportunity to insure that America's young people are indeed, now get these words because starting today--because I'm announcing it in Philadelphia--our new theme going forward for at least the next five or six years will be Prepared--period--For Life. When you think about it from a marketing and public relations point of view you have all kinds of potential. But we have the opportunity to insure that America's young people are indeed Prepared. For Life... Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse? [audience response: "Tuesday"] Tuesday? Whoa! OK. Oh, that's right! This is Amish country, isn't it? So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life: Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill! Yours at Tuesday, Kudu http://kudu.net

How could you possibly not understand my "point"? The test of whether or not Wood Badge teaches the "Patrol Method" is how course directors, staffers, and participants actually implement it in their home Troops. Does the home Troop of ANY Wood Badge course director in the United States meet the standards of Baden-Powell (who invented Wood Badge and the Patrol System) or William Hillcourt (who designed the BSA Patrol Method and the American version of Wood Badge)? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

SctDad writes: I just wonder how an expensive course can make me such a superior leader. How can this course define me as a leader. Now really, how important to you is being defined as a "leader"? What Wood Badge does best is package as "How to be a Leader," a course Baden-Powell designed to teach us "How to be an Outdoorsman." As for those who claim that Wood Badge teaches the "Patrol Method," ask them how often their Patrols hike and camp without adult supervision. That is how Baden-Powell defined his Patrol System, and how William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt defined his "Patrol Method." Failing ANY such experience with "Real" PATROL CAMPING, ask them how far apart their Patrols camp for TROOP CAMPING. If you want to understand how "How to be a Leader" works in the real world, simply ask your local past and present Wood Badge staffers and course directors to explain why the EDGE Method replaced Patrol Leaders and any description of a working Patrol in the Patrol Method presentation of "SM & ASM Specific Training." Wood Badge Fake Leadership is why most Troops practice the Den Method, not the Patrol Method. If you would rather learn how to implement what William Hillcourt called the "Real" Patrol Method, then skip Wood Badge and purchase a copy of Hillcourt's two-volume, eleven-hundred page Scoutmaster manual. Copies can be purchased for about $15 per volume. See: http://tinyurl.com/ydutcxo Yours at 300 feet: Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

General Information on Hiking Sticks: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/staff.htm How to Carve Stave Totems: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/stave_totems.htm

acco40 writes: I still don't understand why you feel WB "killed" Scoutcraft. Wood Badge killed APPLIED Scoutcraft: The ability to move a Patrol through the backwoods without adult supervision. acco40 writes: Also, the purpose of IOLS training, and I've been the course director for it, it two fold. So have I, four-fold. acco40 writes: First, it gives Scouters practical outdoor skills needed to lead Scouts. It gives the participants hands-on training so that they can feel comfortable working with and instructing the boys. Yes, as opposed to Scouters teaching Patrol Leaders how to be comfortable leading Scouts into the backwoods without adult supervision. acco40 writes: Second, the "learn by doing" exposes the adults to what we expect of the boys as well as doing it in a patrol fashion. Fake Patrol fashion. Did you ever set aside enough time in your IOLS courses for groups of participants to travel to separate remote areas of the camp and set up their Patrol for a night? How about reserving a day for each Patrol to conduct its own Patrol Hike? If so, then I admit your IOLS participants "learned by doing in a Patrol fashion" better than mine did, and therefore your leadership skills are indeed awesome. If not, did you at least separate the Patrols by Baden-Powell's 300 feet (the minimum for Troop -- as opposed to Patrol -- Camping)? If so, did you explain why they should take the practice back to their home Troops? acco40 writes: I'm curious, exactly what skill do you feel is so difficult that an average intelligence, average physically capable adult would have difficulty completing in a weekend IOLS course? The ability to run Hillcourt's six month Patrol Leader Training course: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm acco40 writes: Have I tied all the knots required for Tenderfoot through first class? My point exactly: IOLS is just a "How to Sign off Tenderfoot - First Class" course, what the cult of Leadership likes to trivialize as the "first year program." The whole point of Applied Scoutcraft (what Hillcourt called "Real Patrols") is to teach Patrol Leaders the skills they need to hike and camp without adult supervision. How many Webelos III dads are capable of doing that after IOLS? Maybe one in a thousand? Even so, that one in a thousand got his skills somewhere other than IOLS and Wood Badge, didn't he? acco40 writes: Does teaching my daughter algebra "kill" her English skills? A better analogy is teaching your daughter algebra in a BSA Lifeguard course. If Wood Badge ever got its hooks into BSA Lifeguard Training we would have exactly the same situation as we have now with Webelos III for the 21st Century: Leadership cult leaders insisting that we replace the ability to swim with the stuff you love so much: childhood development, adolescent behavior, leadership skills, and teaching techniques because, after all, they were "signed off" on swimming in the "first year" program. Wood Badge Den Leaders would then do what they do so well: Join health & safety committees and "modernize" the GTSS to limit teenagers to baby pools and splash pads so that every boy who is afraid of the water can "learn how to be a leader" by serving as a BSA Lifeguard. After all it is more important for BSA Lifeguards to master those precious "people skills" than to know how to swim, right? Would that "kill" BSA Swimming? Not any more than Wood Badge has killed the Patrol Method Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

acco40 writes: I completely disagree with Kudu on the purpose of Scouting. The "Three Purposes of Scouting" are clearly defined by our Congressional Charter, the statute by which the government favors our religious corporation with a monopoly on Scouting: Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, [1.] the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, [2.] to train them in scoutcraft, and [3.] to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_federal_charter.htm So clearly our monopoly was imposed on the American people with the understanding that the mastery of Scoutcraft is one of the Three Purposes of Scouting, not a mere "Method" as the cult of Leadership Development would have us believe. acco40 writes: After all, if we expect 12 year olds to master 1st Class skills, I don't think the adults should struggle with them too much without formal training. Cub Scout moms and dads who have never been camping can now "master" First Class skills in an IOLS weekend, just as ten-year-old crossovers can "master" First Class in a week of summer camp only because Wood Badge killed applied Scoutcraft (what Hillcourt called the "Real" Patrol Method). There is no longer any real-world downside when indoor Webelos III leaders sign off First Class because our "21st century" goal is to produce "people skills" managers: Eagle Scouts who have never walked into the woods with a pack on their back. In contrast, "the methods that were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916" included the First Class Journey, described by Baden-Powell as: (9) Journey. Go on foot or row a boat, alone or with another Scout, for a total distance of fourteen miles, or ride an animal or bicycle (not motor) a distance of thirty miles; he must write a short report of the journey with special attention to any points to which he may be directed by the Examiner or his Scoutmaster (a route map of the journey is not required). The journey should occupy about twenty-four hours and camping kit for the night must be taken and used. Whenever practicable, the camp site must be of the Scout's own choosing, and not where other Scouts are camping. His S.M. or Examiner may indicate the route and suggest the approximate area but not the actual position where he will make his camp. In abnormal circumstances the L.A. may give permission for the paragraph to be made easier to exceptional cases. This test should normally be the final one taken for the First -Class badge. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm The Ameican version can be found at: http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm Leadership Development cancelled Patrol Leader Training in 1972 so that "people skills" wanna-bes can pretend to be "Patrol Leaders" for six months without ever "leading" their Patrols from the parking lot to a nice Cub Scout family camping venue without the benefit of close Webelos III adult supervision. Leadership Development has replaced the Scoutcraft Purpose of Scouting (physical skills that can be measured objectively), with the BSA's two new de-facto "goals" of Scouting: "Character and Leadership" (opinion skills that can only be measured subjectively). OldGreyEagle writes: Just to be clear, when we say "original Wood Badge" are we talking about the syllabus B-P used in the original course in Gilwell Park, or the Pre-1972 Course... magic823 writes: Wish I could go through B-P orginal Woodbadge course. Now that would be fun! For the curious: 1) The required Wood Badge Notebook (including Staff comments) from a Hillcourt Wood Badge Course in 1968: http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm 2) Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm 3) Circa 1965 Baden-Powell Wood Badge Scoutcraft (Required for the Scoutcraft Bead): http://inquiry.net/traditional/leader/index.htm 4) The Gilwell Patrol Leader Training Course: http://inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell/index.htm 5) Baden-Powell's 1914 Four Weekend, pre-Wood Badge Course: http://inquiry.net/adult/trainer/1914_program.htm Yours at 300 feet: Kudu http://kudu.net

magic823 writes: To go off on a semi-tangent, the problem I see with Scouting today is they are battling issues and things they don't need to and have lost the focus on the things that bring boys to scouting. Don't get distracted. The BSA stands on principle, proud of the millions of boys that Leadership Development's "modern" war on Scoutcraft has driven out of Scouting. In regard to membership issues, Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca came out swinging: "It's time to reintroduce the American people to the Boy Scouts and quit letting other people define us." Everyone got so weepy about the new CSE's courageous stand that they completely ignored how Mr. Mazzuca actually "defined us" in that same interview, boasting about how CEOs admire the "state-of-the-art" techniques of Wood Badge that replace Scoutcraft with "Character and Leadership:" "Our goal is not to teach someone to rub two sticks together and make a fire. But when you rub two sticks together and make a fire side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men... You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character." Not to mention his campaign to recruit 100,000 Hispanic kids a year who hate camping as much as BSA millionaires do. It is more productive to concentrate on how how similar our current CSE's rhetoric is to Leadership Development's intentional destruction of Wood Badge, Scoutcraft, and the Patrol Method in 1965-1972, and our subsequent loss of two million (2,000,000) Boy Scouts. See, for instance, the Wood Badge process of replacing Scoutcraft with Character and Leadership in White Stag's own version of that history ("1965"): http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net 1972: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill." http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm 2010: "Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in character development and leadership skill growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us." http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

Having done WB and an MBA, you'll find much of 21CWB redundant. It's all about attitude. If it's just going through the motions, don't do it ... "Might as well" falls a little short in the attitude department. This is why Wood Badge is a cult. It is not enough that you are willing to pilgrimage from Boise to Philmont to sit through yet another office manager course, Steve. If you do not bubble over with enthusiasm like a Wolf Den Leader (for whom 21CWB was designed), then you will be called out in a public forum like this for an "attitude" adjustment. Like all cults, Wood Badge is an unsinkable rubber ducky. If you dare to compare the two courses after you complete the new one, then your "attitude" will again be called out in public because "you did not take the new course with an open mind." It's all about your attitude: Please make a note of that As for staffing a Jamboree Troop, why not wait until your grandson is actually headed in that direction? If your current Beads are worthless now, what is to stop our "leadership" experts from switching from Tuckman's awesome 1965 "21st century" model to yet another bright and shiny CEO wanna-be fad, which will require you to take Wood Badge for the third time? And of course, we could still "network" if Wood Badge was about the Boy Scout program, rather than the "universal leadership principles" that a cupcake needs to become an Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back, and Den Mothers need to force red-blooded American boys to sit indoors and glue macaroni onto paper cups. jhankins writes: if you want to understand the material being presented to the boys at NYLT and the changes to how the patrol method is evolving in Scouting since you were a youth To see what "Leadership Development" has done to the Patrol Method simply purchase a copy of the course outline for "Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training." The Patrol Method has been reduced to a 20 minute session. Except for the fake Baden-Powell quote at the beginning of the session, the Patrol Method is NEVER mentioned. It has been replaced with the "Adult Association" Method. The precious 20 minutes is spent on adult concerns about a "safe environment" and how adults can use the EDGE Method. EVERY mention of the Patrol Leader and EVERY description of a working Patrol has been removed. That is not an exaggeration. Why do you suppose cult members with the correct "attitude" never speak out against this systematic destruction of William Hillcourt's life-work, the Patrol Method? If as you write in another thread you are "Hoping to change things from the inside," then purchase a copy of the two-volume, eleven-hundred page Scoutmaster manual written by Hillcourt: The man who designed Wood Badge and the Patrol Method in the United States, and to whom the Scouter.Com Website is dedicated (see the lower right-hand side of your computer screen). Copies can be purchased for about $15 per volume. See: http://tinyurl.com/ydutcxo Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net Traditional Wood Badge: http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm

boomerscout writes: Don't see how re-certifying will be any better. They'll just forget that too The same thing could be said about BSA Lifeguards.

boomerscout writes: Hard to work on model railroading or horsemanship at a chess club meeting My point exactly! If Chess Club was more like Scouting then Chess Club millionaire executives would use their government-imposed monopoly on "Chess" to include model railroading so as to "broaden the appeal of Chess" by attracting boys who hate Chess (but whose parents want the "Bobby Fischer" award on their son's business resume). Eagle Scout advancement requirements are to the mastery of Scoutcraft, as checkers is to chess. Horsemanship is a valid Scoutcraft skill. Baden-Powell's equivalent to an Eagle Scout Project was the option to organize a 200 mile trip by horseback without adult supervision: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm boomerscout writes: "Because a Scout must re-qualify for every badge every 12-18 months" What a terrible idea! Only if you like plumbing and model railroading more than Current Proficiency in Scoutcraft. "Young man, I see you are a Boy Scout! Can you help my child? He's choking!" "Sorry, I was already signed off on that so I forgot. But I can help you with his model railroad!" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

boomerscout writes: I do not belittle merit badges. MBs teach how to meet and deal with adult strangers Merit Badges could just as easily do that if they were based on Scouting rather than school. Even more so: Merit Badges only indicate a passing interest, whereas Baden-Powell's Proficiency Badges all indicate CURRENT proficiency in Scoutcraft (worn on the right arm), or Public Service (such as First Aid) worn on the left. http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm So you can tell at a glance if a Boy Scout's First Aid skills are CURRENTLY certified by an outside agency. Because a Scout must re-qualify for every badge every 12-18 months under Baden-Powell's system, Boy Scouts meet more often with outside experts. boomerscout writes: MBs also introduce several vocations -- hands on, and not just reading about them. If a boy wants to learn vocations rather than Scouting, we should encourage him to join Junior Achievement. boomerscout writes: It's also possible a Scout will find a life-long hobby thanks to a mb earned. That is what Chess Club is for. To those who champion replacing Scouting with school, I ask "Why not Little League?" Really, once a boy has swung a bat, run a base, and caught a ball why not do what our corporation does: "sign him off" on those "first year skills" with "no retesting." Then Little League millionaires could emulate our professional millionaires and "broaden the appeal of baseball by attracting boys who hate baseball." This would free up "modern" boys to move indoors to learn classroom citizenship, personal management, and corporate team-building skills like Boy Scouts do. Leadership experts could then hand out "Little League World Series" awards to boys who hate baseball, in the same way we hand out Eagle Scout badges to boys who have never walked into the woods with packs on their backs. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

sherminator505 writes: Interesting comments by Kudu on the Citizenship merit badges, considering that those merit badges and their precursor, Civics, have been on the required MB list for Eagle for many, many years. Yes, back to the days when modern leadership theory trained adults to organize Patrols by the Boy Scouts' weight and height, with BSA specifications down to the half-inch. This anti-Patrol System leadership theory specifically did not allow Patrol Leaders to make any decisions. http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm Citizenship (the single aim of Baden-Powell's program), was supposed to be the opposite of school: Something a boy learned with his hands in the backwoods in a Patrol without adult supervision. The natural desire to replace Patrols with adult-imposed classroom citizenship was why the YMCA sought out Boyce. If you read Scott & Murphy's The Scouting Party, it is evident that the ONLY thing that either William Boyce or Edgar Robinson knew about Baden-Powell's Boy Scout program was that they wanted a monopoly on it: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=298037 This government-imposed monopoly is how the BSA turned "Scouting Into School:" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=236888 To its credit, the BSA before 1916 did a good job of incorporating Baden-Powell's advancement requirements, but the most important requirement that tested the backwoods competency of individual Scouts (The First Class Journey) was discarded. At long last Hillcourt introduced the Patrol Method in the late 1920s. It was based on a Patrol Leader's backwoods competency (the ability to take a Patrol into the woods without adult supervision). Soon after Hillcourt's retirement, however, Wood Badge replaced Scoutcraft competency with indoor office formulas ("Fake Leadership"), which are best demonstrated by forcing teenagers to camp in Cub Scout family camping venues under the close supervision of Webelos III dads. Compare this Fake Leadership with the leadership that twelve-year-olds demonstrate in Baden-Powell's writings and "Master and Commander:" http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm The bottom line is that any cupcake can now pick up an Eagle badge without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. As such, "Eagle Scout" is the Scoutcraft Leadership equivalent of a Baden-Powell Second Class Scout. So certainly any twelve-year-old who is good at classroom citizenship and other indoor book-learning subjects is more than capable of earning this middle school badge. It is only the Fake Leadership requirements (PORs) that delay Eagle until age thirteen. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

moosetracker writes: Sad also is that they try to rush through all the requirements tenderfoot to first class with the scouts Yes, when Scouting was popular it took at least a couple years to become a competent First Class Scout. Now it only takes a few hours. God forbid we ever do that to office leadership formulas! moosetracker writes: Our troop you come home from camp and still demonstrate what you learned before sign off ... But, how many troops just take the sign-offs and accept them at face value? Our town's local Scout Troop asked me to supervise their "first year program." I sat through Rainey Mountain's "TNT" course and recommended to the Scoutmaster that the Scouts demonstrate what they had learned, but he looked at me like I was crazy The camp "Awards Report" went directly into their Troopmaster records. Nobody (but me!) would ever admit that in a public forum like this, but I suspect that moving Wood Badge to IOLS insures that most Troops in the United States take first year summer camp reports at face value (as they do with Merit Badges, after all). I mean how much do we expect a former Den Leader (who has never camped before in his or her life), to remember from a one weekend "outdoor" course, especially if all they do is sit in a chair watching ten-year-olds "earn" 90% of First Class in 15 hours? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

This summer I blundered into an IOLS course at Camp Rainey Mountain (Georgia) in which Webelos III dads sit in folding chairs and watch "Patrols" of ten and eleven-olds go through the camp's first year "TNT" course. The IOLS course director boasted that Scouts breeze through "90%" of the Tenderfoot through First Class skills (including the five mile hike) in fifteen (15) hours! In other words, there is no "hands-on" instruction for adults in all that now remains of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge. The sad thing is that Camp Rainey Mountain is a first-rate summer camp (by 21st century anti-Patrol Method standards). Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

HobcawChaos, If you get a chance to schedule a hike, the wild orange trees have begun to drop ripe fruit. Wild citrus is usually sour, but our native Florida Scouts go wild over the stuff every January and February. somenolesrule writes: Forgot about McGregor Smith. Haven't been there in a long long time. It sits in the middle of a vast protected Southwest Florida Water Management area, but funding for the Boy Scout camp itself barely squeaks through the Council's budget process every year because nobody seems to know that the camp is open again. Alligators, bald eagles, magnificent old trees, and wild orange and tangerines. A truly awesome wilderness experience for those of us who are more used to tiny Boy Scout camps set in the middle of encroaching suburbia. Oh, and hot showers all year (which are rare in the north except at summer camp). McGregor Smith is a Boy Scout camp worth supporting. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Get a snorkeling with manatees quote from "Adventure Diving" in Crystal River. http://floridafundive.net/ They treat our Troop very well: http://inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/index.htm If you decide to squeeze in their Rainbow River Drift Dive, be sure to ask them how to find the Spanish Doubloons: http://www.inquiry.net/scuba_diving_merit_badge/rainbow_river_drift_dive.htm These high-quality Spanish treasure props (from a movie filmed there) can still be found in the sandy bottom near the rope swing. The closest Scout Camp to Crystal River is the McGregor Smith Scout Reservation (24.7 miles from Adventure Diving): http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/recreation/areas/flying_eagle-mcgregor_smith_reservation.html At 10,950 acres, there is plenty of room to camp your Patrols Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart Florida could forever change the way you do the Patrol Method! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

I would caution against promoting Traditional Scout Skills by their "practicality." When Scouting was popular it was a game, not "practical skills" for a more rural society, as Wood Badge Staffers would have us believe. The whole point of Wood Badge is to replace backwoods competence with fake indoor leadership formulas "because we must change with the times." If Little League had a monopoly on the word "baseball" like we have a monopoly on the word "Scouting," then Wood Badge Cub Scout Staffers would be busy at work replacing "old fashioned, obsolete skills" like running, catching, and swinging a bat, with "21st century" corporate team-building exercises and homework citizenship. Likewise, Wood Badge Den Leaders would be serving on Little League "heath and safety" committees doing their part to dumb baseball for teenagers down to the T-ball level, like Leadership Development has done to the Patrol Method. Swinging a club became old-fashioned in the Iron Age. Besides, "it's just a first year skill," so once you are "signed off," there should be "no retesting." If Wood Badge turned baseball into something that most American kids hate as much as "21st century Scouting," Little League's chief professional millionaire would announce that Hispanic kids don't like baseball, so let's replace it with soccer Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Our town's local Scout Troop tried a non ad-hoc campout for the very first time this weekend! The two largest Patrols (each with at least eight Scouts attending) headed for the hills, camping about 600 feet apart. The older Scouts in these Patrols had attended my invitation-only "leadership training" backpacking trips, where the gung-ho outdoorsmen Scouts camp a few football fields away from the adults + younger gung-ho Scouts who are not yet up to speed. Two small Patrols, one with only two (then three) first-year Scouts attending, the other with around four Scouts (including older Life Scouts who just want to get Eagle on their business resume) could not understand the idea of setting up a football field away from each other in the dark. They ended up camping about 20 yards apart near the Troop trailer. Weak flashlights contributed to their lack of adventure. I would not call this the "Patrol Method" because regular campouts are dominated by massive Patrol Boxes constructed of 3/4 inch plywood. They require two adult-sized Scouts just to move a couple yards from the trailer. So cooking is done in a central area, which is contrary to truly independently functioning Patrols. Heavy Patrol Boxes bind Boy Scouts to the Troop Method. Backpacking (I always call it "Backwoods Treks" within earshot of Boy Scouts) can do a lot to separate "Real" Boy Scouts from Webelos III Scouts, adults, and infrastructure. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagledad writes: A person can believe in the sum total thing and still not believe in god. You have it backward: All the young atheists I have met reject supernaturalism. A definition of God as the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe, is the opposite of supernaturalism. So to understand that not all religion requires short-cutting natural law does indeed solve the "Atheist Scout Problem." Eagledad writes: If the scout presents me with this idea, that is one thing, but if he told me that an adult said he was OK because of some pantheist belief, well that is something else. I merely require that they understand the concept, as well as the definitions of awe and wonder. None of them ever become "a pantheist." Maybe no atheist Scout has ever debated you because you are so hung up on "belief" (as opposed to "faith"). Matthew 15:31-46 is about action (B-P's "Practical Christianity") not belief. Eagledad writes: After reading your last post, I am convinced that a scout would have more freedom with me than with you. Obviously that is not true, because no Scout has ever told you he is an atheist. Eagledad writes: I've watched to many adults project their ambitions, fears and beliefs on the scouts trying to sway the scout to their own way of thinking and I detest that. Since you have never met an atheist Scout, it follows that you would not know from personal experience that these are not the kind of kids that can be "swayed" to anyone else's "way of thinking." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagledad writes: It seems to me Kudu that you basically just told the atheist scout to say "Repeat after me!" to give you the out. Gutless on both your parts. I don't know what that means except that as an obvious example of psychological projection, you suspect yourself of being a coward for some reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection By "explain in their own words," I mean that we usually discuss "natural laws" while we make a campfire, Baden-Powell style. Eagledad writes: I admit that in the many hundreds of scouts I've worked with, I never had one just come out and say he was an atheist. All the young self-defined "atheists" I have met had above average IQs. Maybe they all know better than to talk freely around someone like you, who will accuse them of merely repeating something someone else said ... oh, and accuse them of being "gutless." Most young intellectuals don't crave that drama. Eagledad writes: he needs to feel satisfied with he decision because he will have to live with it forever. That is where you are dead wrong. Young atheists do NOT "have to live with it forever," nor is their position "a decision." Their perspective is tentative: Along the lines of "I don't believe in supernatural shortcuts in the universe, but I'm open to any objective proof you have to offer." They simply object to supernatural claims. The pantheist definition of God as "the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe" fixes that. Once they find a definition of God that does not require intellectual compromise, they become more open to conventional religious ideas. Matthew 15:31-46, for instance, which is a perfect example of Baden-Powell's notion of a secular "Practical Christianity" (Good Deeds done with grubby young hands). http://inquiry.net/ideals/matthew_25_31-46.htm Easy-Peasy at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by kudu)

In the context of Scout Spirit requirements, I require my outspoken, self-described atheist Scouts to memorize and then explain in their own words what Carl Sagan reported to be Einstein's summary of Spinoza's pantheist definition of God: "God is the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe." Atheist problem solved References to Pantheism in Rev. Baden Powell's Order of Nature: http://inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm B-P and "Nature Knowledge:" http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net