johndaigler

Sorry about the training vent. I don't take back what I said, but I am sorry to subject the campfire to it. Unc, interesting thoughts. I hope no one feels that my "hypothetical" situation was inappropriately handled - I just wanted to couch it in a "safe" way. My peers, though unable to argue the truth, would not feel good about reading what I have written (am writing). Remember, I use my name on this Forum. It's one thing to subject myself to public recognition, it's another to do that to others. I was just trying to be careful for others' sake. I don't really understand why the hypothetical situation gets a different approach and answer than the real situation. I explained the situation and the question with true details. What more info would help you help me? I know you probably can help, so I hope that last bit didn't sound disrespectful, just unsure. So, short of names and places, . . . The Pack has not payed much attention to program for years. I can't speak about individual Dens, and beyond my experiences last year as a Tiger Parent, my historical information is annecdotal. Last year, Tigers was so frustrating for me, that it was either move on, or get involved. Like I've said in other threads, I grew up on Scouting. My Dad (and Mom!) thought the handbook was a parenting manual! My Dad was Woodbadge, Silver Beaver, St. George, Jamborees and Philmont. His most prized possession (and his most guilt ridden pleasure) was the leaf he nipped from a Gilwell tree on a trip to England. My Father passed away over 10 years ago and that leaf is a prized family heirloom. And by all of that, I mean to say that, Scouting is very important to me, so walking away was not really an option, and I recognize when Scouting doesn't look like Scouting. My Pack is in shambles (has been for a while)and I'm trying to figure out how to Help lead it back to (and beyond) a Quality Program. As a DL, I do OK with the boys I work with, and have a slight influence with other DLs, if only in the peer pressure sense - and also, I'm pretty good at sharing opportunities, so sometimes they come along for the fun! However, Pack Leadership has other roles, that I could pursue, that would allow me to work toward helping the pack as an whole. I'm trying to figure out how best to fit into the puzzle, but there's a big chunk of me that just wants to start making decisions and giving orders! Obviously, that piece gets told to shut up and listen - with the occasionally successful coup upon my keyboarding fingers! My son's a Wolf and, of course, in my Den. But, it's not enough to work with him and seven of his friends, while 60 other boys move toward ending their Scouting careers as Webelos. Another key "reality" piece is the CC, who is dedicated to improvement, but doesn't carry weight with the DLs, or the "old guard", (who are slowly aging out, but still dominate decisions - through their resistance to change). She's considering moving to CM in February (as the current CM crosses over) or sooner. So, that's pretty much it. If my peers read this it will look like I'm arrogantly planning a palace takeover, but I'm not good as sitting back and watching the train careen toward the wall - especially with my son on board. Just looking for help finding the switches to redirect the train! And, I'm thinking that, the training vent had to do with the fact that I NEEDED that training to better accomplish what I'm determined to do. It was terribly frustrating to realize that the time invested did not bring me any closer to being better prepared to help the Pack! John(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

I'm obviously changing thread direction, but I think BW's question is more important to more people than what the heck I'm gonna do when I start facing the reality that my troubled Pack isn't hypothetical. Perhaps, some kind "moderate" soul can set me up with a new thread. I better backtrack a bit when I say there were SEVERAL things clarified HERE that were left vague in Training. Actually, in this thread, that comment pertains mostly to the role of the COR in determining leaders and the standards which leaders must meet. But I have learned more here in any given day on these clear forums than I did in Training - you name the topic, I'll give you the specific example! Youth Protection WAS worthwhile because it pointed out specifics and gave details on what, and what not, to do. Professionally, I had learned most of the knowledge already and yet the concrete application to the Scouting setting made it worthwhile - though I think the little quizzes along the way and the test at the end are less than challenging. I went into the other training courses with an open mind and open eyes because I had been challenged to meet that standard in a previous thread. I was determined to learn all that was offered. I tried REALLY hard to scrape every useful bit out of those four hours. It didn't work so well. DL Specific and Basic Essentials were not significantly helpful. Unfortunately for trainers and any instructors or teachers I deal with, I'm a tough critic. I've got decades of training as a teacher and educator so I set (unfairly?) high standards for presentors and presentations. I know they're volunteers, and therefore deserving of my thanks, generous goodwill, and my respect, but . . . Trainers reading slides from Powerpoint to a group of adults make my ears bleed. Trainers showing video clips without introduction or reflective discussion make my eyes bleed. Building a cardboard bridge without explanation or reflection upon the metaphor was disappointing. (Sorry, I ran out of gorey Halloween bleeding hyperboles - - Nose bleeds didn't sound dramatic enough!) For part of Den Leader Specific, the Trainer dropped the various resource books on the table and rattled off their titles with such useful comments as "This is the How To Book. It shows you how to do things." It was obvious that several people in the room had never seen "Program Helps" or the "Cub Scout Leaders Book". These people wanted to know how to have 8 2nd graders in their home for an hour and have a successful meeting where the boys learned and had fun. They didn't learn that. Now, you can say that's not the point of Basic Essentials or DL specific, but what's more basic or more specific to a DL than understanding the structure of Den meetings and the use of BSA resources for planning a quality program. Those DLs could have used a 30 minute lesson just focusing on all the value that "Program Helps" squeezes into its pages! At the very least they could have used a copy of the damn thing to take home. The training classes were so "top line" that we spent 3 minutes on any given topic and when it came time for questions, the trainers couldn't give concrete or accurate answers. Several times the answer was, call your DE or check with the Council. Not once did anyone bother to give those names or phone numbers. We didn't even get the chance to share our own info - sorry, no Scouter connections made here! There was no opportunity or system for reflection and critique of the program or the instructors. That's practically criminal in any adult training - what a waste of a powerful resource - the trainees!!! Here's a basic essential for ya - the name of the person who answers the phone when you call the service center. If you want to help DLs, let them know the service center is filled with people who are interested in service. BTW, her name is Sandy and she's tremendously helpful! I understand the need for an overall introduction to the org., its history, its structure, its aims, etc. But, no one walked out of there with instantly useful, usable info that wasn't supplied by peers instead of trainers. Today's training will not make us better DLs. I could go on for pages about those four hours! I could give specific after specific! GGGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!! It made me crazy! Materials that weren't up to date or contradicted other materials being used - giving us a reading assignment, then talking throughout our reading time - twice crashing the damn balancing nails while the video was playing . . . If the training is valuable then trainers need to make it valuable. If I want to truly make those training sessions useful to myself, I'm gonna have to drive down to the Scout Store in a neighboring council to get the syllabus and go through it myself! I'm not happy, and I'm not satisfied! BW, you are always pounding home the importance of training. Either you're wrong - and I don't really think that - or I have been robbed of a good opportunity. I am no more ready to speak as a "trained" Scouter today than I was yesterday! That shiny new badge is gonna sit on my sleeve like a rattlesnake!!! Sorry, for that tirade. Luckily, I'm not feeling very talkative right now or I would have taken the time to give more details! Who do I have to become to have a positive impact on training and/or trainers??? jd

Lone, WELCOME! "Morally Pure" is pretty high standard! Do we uninvite "cohabiting" Scout Leaders?? Do we have a National Policy that precludes their joining? I had to google AHG - and it took several tries and specific keywords...isn't it a trumped up American Doll Fan Club?? I didn't stay long enough to find outdetails, but what would they have to do with the Girls Scouts and any issues the GSA faces, homosexuality or otherwise? It seems you're hyper-extrapolating a few facts

BTW - Love the kinder, gentler "B:)b"!! This Halloween, you'll probably have many fewer costumed children run screaming away from the 'ol BW nest!!! jd

Thanks, guys! I naively thought this was going to be a discussion between the impact of the CC and the CM!! Brand new view!!! And thanks, also, for clarifying several points that "training" was terribly vague on!! However, (curveball coming!), You (hypothetically, again) aren't a Lion, and for better and worse, aren't really humble enough just to offer your services to the better judgement of the COR . . . Bigger impact - CC or CM? jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

CC, If the school will let you do that - by all means go for it. Having Scouts along is a fine idea, or just put together a "science fair" display of all the cool stuff your Scouts are doing!!! As long as you're planning a tour, stop by the churches and civic orgs.! jd

75th anniversary!!! -Blue and Gold garlands, -vintage and new equipment, uniforms, patches, and photos -Diamond shaped ornaments or glass "Diamond" ornaments -A big ol' Fleur-de-lis tree topper jd

OK, The Pack hasn't followed Program in years. Most leaders are untrained and/or only mildly interested -- not mean or terrible people, just not "Scouters". Webelos graduate, and then leave Scouting - maybe one moves up to the local troop each year. The Pack is in the process of hooking up with a new CO (let's say: the Lions Club) - because the CO of the last 20 years (Elem. school) decided they didn't want to be partnered with The Pack. The Pack hasn't had a planned budget in years. Every decision, financial or otherwise, gets made using a "just in time" approach. There's nothing that resembles appreciation for BSA policies, and no Pack policies exist on any topic. The Pack's Committee members are generally DLs and ADLs doing double duty, and several key roles are filled with parents of graduating Webelos. If it matters, The Pack hypothetically exists in a wealthy suburb of a major city. You, as an interested "Scouter" dedicated to improving the Cubs' Scouting experience, can take on any role(s) in the Pack. Which job(s) do you take and why????? THANKS for your help! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Trailpounder - interesting thought, but the Catholic Church's abuse issues are generally brought up by posters arguing against allowing homosexuals into the BSA. You're sounding a bit paranoid, when you write that "activists" are out to "target" you!! BTW, why is "activist" a bad word?? Why are people with opinions that differ from yours labeled with such s-c-a-r-y words?? Rooster - I always enjoy reading your words. Don't agree with them, but they make me think. Next time try comparing homosexuals to something less vile than murderers, child molesters, and animal lovers. For me, the credibility of your comments are threatened, because you rarely recognize that homosexuals have other character traits than their sexual orientation. I'm sure there's more to each person than just that . . . Bugler, I'll get back to you after Thanksgiving. I have to go home to my Mom's house to get my old High School Latin books so that I can figure out what you said to me!!!!!!!!! sum es est . . . jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

CC, I don't know the rule, but I'd do it! Go ahead and do the research, and figure out what rules you're using or breaking, but make it work! Good Luck!! I hope the parent and Cub are as interested in success as you are! jd ps>>Try sending a PM to specific Scouter who you generally trust as knowledgeable.

CC, Sounds like fun! Can you take it a step toward "real", and have a Denner election? jd

Hey, Rooster, Even I wouldn't step out onto THAT ice. That's not what I said, and certainly not what I meant. I was thinking (and hoping to write) about the truth that Bible verses can be used for various sides of various arguments. I was hoping to point out that on the one hand condemnation of sin can be supported, on the other, forgiveness of sin and sinners -- judgement of wickedness, and a prohibition against judging -- the value of the accumulation of wealth, and an admonition against wealth -- Faith, and Good Works -- humility, and confidence (pride) -- pork, and Kosher -- etc., etc. (I hope I don't need to go get verse numbers, I think you can see the truth of what I say.) God's True Will is unknowable. We act only on what we can understand and/or believe. Justice and generosity towards others is not that hard to fathom, or difficult to justify using Verses. Previously, you've spoken against the concept of picking and choosing which aspects of the Bible we hold dear, and how that philosophy won't stand the Test. I suggest that no matter what you believe, you need to "ignore" Verses that might lead you to believe otherwise. At the least, you need to prioritize Lessons, and choose which you hold most dear. I believe God will understand ("forgive", if you like) those of us who choose to treat his other children with gentleness and generosity. I understand people who will choose judgement of sin as a greater responsibility. I just don't agree. My Faith in the infinite wisdom and strength of Heaven lead me to "know" that, how I treat others is more important than how I judge them. They have to face the Test, as well, they'll pass or they'll fail. I won't be the one to fail them, then, or now. I know you won't agree with my thinking, or where it leads me. I know better than to try to convince you I'm right. I wasn't saying I could justify homosexuality using different Verses, but, other Verses lead me to other, more important, Truths. Be Well, jd

Packman, WELCOME!!! Trust your Program Helps, Cub Scout Leader Book, How-To Book, Songbook, Sparklers and Ceremonies Books. Around here, those BSA Resources and Training usually get top honors. Though, you should get some great ideas from posters as well. As far as training goes, sounds like you don't have much time and either you've got it, or it needs to wait till next month. The Halloween Party is a no-brainer success - some simple games, some candy, a song or two, "Monster Mash" playin'in the background, and you're good to go. I suggest sticking to "school rules" about costume extras like: swords, guns, scythes, even masks, etc. --- also, some costume common sense is called for and you won't be able to trust your boys on their choices. Pack meetings are Family events, and extra gross (bloody skull faces), extra scary (GWB masks ) costumes hit wrong notes with 4 yr olds, and their parents. But, "Halloween Party" doesn't really fit the Monthly Theme of "Circus of Stars". Our Pack is doing a "Circus", with each Den performing a simple act -- one is "clowning", another is "tumbling", . . . "juggling", . . . "joke telling" . . . etc. You might feel the need to "take control" for a meeting or two, but remember, The Pack meeting is intended to celebrate the boys' efforts this month, and tie things together with a Monthly Theme. It's not really the Cubmaster's job to "BE" the Pack meetings. You're just supposed to help plan and organize, be the MC, and help support the Dens as they join together to celebrate everyone else's hard work ( no disrespect to all you hardworkin' CMs!!!!). It sounds like it's too late to depend on your DLs to put a Pack Meeting together for this month, but that's the direction you should aim for. It's not my favorite answer, but if I was wearing the shoes it sounds like you're wearing, I'd choose "Halloween Party" and aim for better successes in the future. Take a look at your BSA resources for examples of what a Pack Meeting should look like and see what small steps you can take in that direction. . . A costume for you? (Akela, Native American Chief, BP, ???) A Pack Meeting prayer? (pack chaplain? If not, anyone can lead the prayer in the Program helps.) Recognition of Achievements/Cub work? (Awards presented by ghost of BP? Pull awards from bubbling cauldron??) Opening/Closing ceremonies? (Not too scary, but lights going off briefly during a "Halloween" themed event is almost mandatory!! Be quick, get your desired effect, and get the lights back on for safety! Also, strobe lights kick butt in the world of elem. school boys!)) Flags and Color Guard? (real uniformed military?? coordinated costumes?? clowns who know when NOT to clown around???) Special Effects?? (fog machine, machine machine, disco lights??? Themed snacks and drinks?? Fake campfire, using those lamps with the cloth "flickering flames"??) Lot's of things to consider. Don't make yourself crazy, but have fun. Pull off one good moment and don't try to make every moment memorable. Good luck! Come back and tell us what you decide and how it goes! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Quoting Revelations??? That's hard to do - since there are MANY scholarly interpretations of what John's visions truly mean . . . And, without too much trouble, it's possible to find Verses that could be used to argue either side of just about any point --- Thanks, for that reminder, Acco. Not to mention, that we don't all use the same Bible . . . We can believe, but we can not KNOW God and his truths. I, just for me, believe God to be strong enough and gentle enough to find more room in his embrace than is currently found in BSA policy. And, even if in the end, I'm wrong -- MY God will find it in himself to free me from my ignorance, while judging me for my intent, not my errors. God and I will both survive the judgement, either way. Fiat justitia; ruat coelum. jd For those of you who find my Latin challenging (or perhaps Sacreligious {sp?}) -- Know that it speaks to a Faith in the infinite strength of God's Truth, not humanity's weakness.

Sona si latine loqueris!!!

Discrimination based on race, Discrimination based on gender, Discrimination based on religious choice, Discrimination based on sexual orientation, Wouldn't it be more appropriate if we used the same ruler for all our measurements? Sometimes it's accepted as a Local Option, Sometimes it's accepted as a Moral Value, Sometimes it's NOT accepted as a Moral Value, Wouldn't it be more appropriate if we used the same ruler for all our measurements? None of these are "legal" in the USA. Wouldn't it be more appropriate if we used the same ruler for all our measurements? Gender Equality is seen as a Moral Value by most of America. Yet, we allow COs to Local Option. Religious Equality is seen as a Moral Value by most of America. Yet, we allow COs to Local Option. Sexual Orientation Equality is seen as a Moral Value by most of America. Yet, we allow COs to . . .oooooooooooops! Apparently, This is MY bad. . . Wouldn't it be more appropriate if we used the same ruler for all our measurements? Is there such a thing as mental hazing? Sometimes I feel like a Bobcat being flipped! jd

"The issue that seems to be rising to the service is the behavior of the adults". . . .Yo, jd, that would be rising to the "surface" . . . right????? Anyway, aren't we sending her down the wrong road?? If I were denmom3, I'd be closer to calling the Council (YP training) than making plans for the marble jar or snacktime. She's not the DL, and we seem to suggesting ideas as if we were talking to the DL. She gets it -- we need to be having this talk with him. Since that doesn't seem likely, perhaps she needs to contact the CM/CC/COR??? Or maybe she just needs to think of the ADL's behavior as abusive and call the Council?? I don't think we want to encourage parents, or any Scouter, to redefine leadership roles. Her Den and Den Leadership need her help, yes, but is this the way??? I applaud her thinking, her interest, her wisdom in coming here for help ,... but, am I the only one uncomfortable with the direction this is headed? With all due respect, "den mother"???? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

nldscout, ya know BW just gets that way when Ed's serving em!!! Allergies, maybe? Zippity (and everyone else!!) I was in the "OGE Tent of Sarcasm" when I mentioned that it might only apply to Tigers!!!! It clearly applies to all Scouts. Look, it's simple -- DON'T FLIP BOBCATS! IT'S AGAINST THE RULES! It's PROHIBITED to flip ANY scouts during ANY ceremonies!! Zip, tell the other Leaders, "NO!" Be Well You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

denmom3, With all due respect, I've become more and more concerned as the conversation goes along. You're getting lots of good ideas and all of them will help - with the boys behavior. The issue that seems to be rising to the service is the behavior of the adults. Sounds like you need to use the candle or marble jar for the DL and ADL!! And, I'm only being half facetious. I'd be concerned that if you step in the way this seems to be heading, no one is addressing the adult behavior issues. There is no "denmom" role - unless you invent one because you are concerned about what's going on in the den. I applaud your concern and plan to intervene. But, again I think you're addressing the wrong issue. If it's the DL and ADL who need training or counseling, your marble jar will only be mildly successful and only because the boys will be smart enough to realize you are "running interference" between them and Denzilla. Perhaps for good reasons,--- but you're undermining the roles of DL and ADL. It resembles the mother who helps kids hide "bad" things from their father, it may feel like helping but in the end, you damage all the relationships in the family. Granted, these two adults need help. But I'm no longer sure you're moving in the right direction. I'm concerned that your efforts will have the effect of condoning and supporting the behaviors of the DL and ADL. I'd be cautious and think on this awhile. See if my comments jog any ideas from others in the forum. I'm inclined to see this as a Pack issue and not just a Den issue. Good luck, jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

I guess, Ed, since we can only find the prohibition on pg. 150 of the Tiger Cub Handbook, it may only apply to Tigers. If you'd like to flip a few 4th or 5th graders who join as Webelos, I say more power to you!!! But hurry because those boys need to get flipped and move on to more of this "just good fun" most of us call hazing!!!! Thanks for the citation CC. jd

Welcome, Denmom3!!!!!! I think you offered to be "Assistant Den Leader". Not that we have anything against motherhood, but "denmom" was making it hard on us male Den volunteers!!!! Every DL needs a good (if not GREAT) ADL. At the very least - another adult needs to be there just so the DL can safely and appropriately have meetings. Get on the same page with the DL - be a part of planning, be a part of organization, get trained together if you can, get your own copy of "Program Helps" and the Cub Scout "Leader Book". Use them!!!! You're going to have tons of fun!!! So, too, will your Cubs, but fun's not enough. Give them a great program and they'll keep coming back!!!! Enjoy, and keep coming back here. These forums and this website are PACKED with TONS of information, good wishes, creative thinking, Scouting resources and not-so-gentle-reality-checks (which we all seem to need on occasion!). Again, WELCOME!!!!!! Keep it simple, Keep it Fun!!!! jd

IH??? jd

Welcome, Queenj!!!!! Scouting is respectful of varying religious faiths, but individual Scouters aren't always clear on how to show that respect and balance it with BSA traditions and expectations. My suggestion is that you discuss your concerns with your Den and Pack Leaders, so that everyone can understand how your son will act and how others will act. A slight modification made need to be made in a few requirements but it's not a big deal. However, proactive chats often save everyone from hurt feelings later on. It may be important, and easier on all the boys, to have the Bear Den understand why your son doesn't say the pledge. It could be a great opportunity for the DL to introduce the Religious Awards Programs to the Bears, if they're not already aware. I can't speak to the GSA, but my guess would be that similar truths hold there, as well. Again, Welcome!!!!!! jd

Zip, The rules agree with CC and BW. Bobcats SHOULD NOT be turned. Not all traditions are good - the BSA specifically prohibits this one. Sorry, that's going to make for some uncomfortable conversation, but Bobcat heads bouncing off floors were found to be more uncomfortable!!! There's lots of other fun safe ways to celebrate Bobcathood!!!!!!! Check out the "Ceremonies" book: Section 8. good luck! Have Fun!! jd

Blue Mountain, WELCOME!!!!! And, THANKS!!!!! It's not just CC and her boys that you're helping, but your efforts make all of us a little bit better - a little bit stronger - a little bit SCOUTIER!!!! jd