John-in-KC

Everything, everything I've seen in this discussion about contracts is one way ...from the boy! Well, I'm not an attorney, but I have taken enough administrative law to be dangerous. Contracts are always two way streets. There are conditions that apply to the person bidding the contract, and there are conditions that apply to those who are awarding the contract. There are fewer and fewer contracts where the only obligation of the person awarding the contract is to pay $$$. In home purchases, the seller has to buy a warranty to cover the property for N years. In other home purchases, the seller has to make whole any issues found in a home inspection by a Professional Engineer. In one contract I know of, the US Government provides all the support resources as Government Furnished Equipment. So ... if you, Mr SM, think the contract is a one ticket of labor and loyalty, I submit you need to have a friendly cup of coffee with someone, and rethink the entire idea. As for me, I much prefer several SM conferences, talking with the boy, coaching him, cheering him on.

When a Scout is going to take on an office or a POR in a Troop, at least four conversations need to happen: - Current SPL/ASPL and boy: What the job entails - SM/ASM overseeing program role: are you willing to do your best for this? - If applicable, Committee member whose support duties overlap the youth members: I am willing to help you learn, and I will support you. - Finally (from sad experience), SM to parent: Are you willing to support your child in this effort of his, and not backstabbing him? Yes, folks, I have seen this happen A no answer at any of these points should cause an immediate SM conference, for the Scout may be being set up to fail

I believe Beavah, Calico, and Lisa have the better trail to take for now. If I were the CC, I'd invite Mom and the DL's concerned for a cup of coffee away from the meeting. Offer the Pack's good offices in getting the two kids where they need to be for program events. Include in those program events group opportunities to fundraise. I think there is a solid win-win here ... all the more so considering the economy

Sweet mercy. Would someone pass me the hip waders, please? If a Scout is reasonably participating in the life of his Troop, the activity requirements to Second and First Class will happen naturally. If he's not participating in the life of his Troop, then his PL and SPL needs to be checking in with him, and Mr SM or one of the ASM's need a quiet and friendly word with the parents.

Is this what the Eagles and their families want? If no, is there a good reason for disregarding their desires?

Moose, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Distributed access to the advancement and membership modules of ScoutNet. Make sure the one thing a field user CANNOT do is delete. Add? Yes. Change? Yes. Delete ... particularly a membership or an advancement? Heck, No. That should be reserved for the Registrar or the Professional overseeing advancement. One of the things I truly dislike is that in internet recharter, you actually are calling a static view of the membership database down, and when you punch complete you are not uploading to ScoutNet, but rather to a queue for the registrar to work.

E92, I'm not saying it's inappropriate to use a computer to prepare a project. I'm saying requiring submission on a CD or a memory stick is an addition to requirements. Even a 4GB on special at OfficeMax is $15. Further, I'm not sure how many public access points these days have CD burners active in their boxes. To Eagle90 ... again, ask the tough question, and ask where it's documented in Scouting policy allowing them to do this. ETA: I just went through the latest Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook, #512-927, found on the NESA website as a fillable/savable PDF download. There was NO MENTION of CDs or memory sticks.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I think it's time for your COR to call the Council Advancement Chair and ask where that addition to the requirements is authorized by Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 or BSA Requirements #33215. This sounds like a bureaucratic/autocratic LOCAL ADDITION to requirements(This message has been edited by John-in-kc)

It's called Troopmaster: http://www.troopmaster.com There may well be room for a competitor, but what will you bring to the table that is not already on the market? I used it when it was not a networked package, and I found it very user friendly If you step out with this venture, good hunting :-)

Buffalo lawyers scare me. They can stampede you

There is a PDF of a blue card available in the interweb wild. PM Me off list with real contact data and I will email it to you. Just because Council will not free issue them does not mean you cannot use MB apps.

Lisa, Great replies so far. A good chapter/lodge: - Has service projects they select to do. These might be at the Scout Camp, they might be in town. - Develops the Thespians they need for Ceremony Team. - Has some fun stuff, as others have mentioned. - Encourages young men to serve as Staff at the Council camps. - Sends young men on OA Trail Crew ... or Jamboree support crew. A good friend of mine, who is a Regional Associate Adviser, had a crew with him for 4 weeks at AP Hill, helping with set-up, check-in, and event operations. I believe they got a significant discount in return. Emb, what have you heard?

8) Do not allow a youth member to receive unsatisfactory instruction. Get the adults who went to Scout Camp with you out looking at the program. Compare what is being taught against the current MB requirements. Work with the Lodge Director and the Program Director before the situation becomes the fork in the road Beavah and Calico Penn describe!

My day job is looking at the innards of a ratherarge, but somewhat static, database. A quality dynamic, distributed database has to have an easy to use, field-proof user entry, a schema which is economical of processing time and stores each data element once, and a data management method which backs up daily in addition, there needs to be a test environment, which has everything the production system has, only on a smaller scale. Finally, the managers need to have access using the same external networks the customers use. If you cannot tell that the production rig isn't supporting some ISP/ WAN still routing data through an obsolete protocol, and be able to deal with it, then your credibility to your customer will be exactly zero Every "IT Professional" contemplating a new deployment should go an reread the "Bastard Operator from Hell" series. It's a great anti-guide to developing/testing/deploying software Better yet, go read the last year of Dilbert, and figure out how it applies to your development or production environment

The boys in Troop NNN KNOW their adults. In a very few years, these young men are going to meet Mr or Mrs Smith for the first time ever and ask for a job. Have we really done our best to mentor and support them if we do everything in-Troop??? Scoutmasters are the guardians. If they are not receiving the service and support they need from the District, then Mr SM needs a friendly cup of coffee with each of his Commish and COR. The Commish would offer feedback up the one (it's a gift). OTOH, the COR should have blunt and frank discussions with Prosessionals and senior volunteers: "Fulfill your end of the charter agreement, please."

Moose, Since I'm in the defense industry now, let me tell you about that $500 hammer: - Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine working on a contract discovers he needs a hammer, and requests it under the "Big Weapon System du Jour" contract at his post, camp, base, or station. - Contracting Officer's Representative (that's the Government guy who officially tasks the contractor) sends the action to the contractor firm. - Contractor project manager says "Do you really want to do this? By the time I go to the store and buy it, I will spend 2 hours of direct billing chargeable labor, plus a share of project overhead to this task?" - COR says "Buy it." - Project manager has a supply tech, who has a base wage of $20 / hour and a burdened rate of $45 per hour, go and get the hammer, using company transport. Some of the examples (the $3000 toilet seat) are spurious. When you buy a fiberglass toilet area insert, you're buying a chunk of money for a one off mold. Finally, HALF A MIL?? Geez, my Council is one of the twenty largest in the Nation, and we run on $2M a year, less camp fees. I think it's time for the independent audit, Judge.

JMBadger ... To me, that's parsing. The standard is also different: At all levels of Cub Scouting, the rank advancement standard is "Do Your Best." In Boy Scouts, it's "Meet the Requirement." No. AOL and Tenderfoot are not synonymous. AOL and Scout are not synonymous.

Good Morning, JMBadger: Here is a link to the requirements for the Arrow of Light. While the link is not to scouting.org, usscouts.org is a place I trust: http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/arrowoflight.asp Here is a link to the BSA website, with the requirements for Scout: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/joining.aspx As you compare, notice the Scout must agree to understand and live by the Outdoor Code. That is a difference between AOL and Scout Notice the AOL requires knowledge of the First Class Badge, "The Badge of Better Boyhood" The Scout must describe the Scout badge. That is a second difference Finally, the new Scout must do the pamphlet (YP) exercises with his parent. That's not required for AOL. So ... AOL does not even give automatic Scout status. Also from the BSA website, here are the requirements for Tenderfoot: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/tenderfoot.aspx Simply put, there are more skills for the Tenderfoot than there are for the AOL. No, Sir, AOL does not equal automatic Tenderfoot. It did not in 1967-68, when I moved up to Boy Scouting, and it does not today. I hope this explanation gives you the answers you need.

From everything I've seen, it's sort of self-selection: You have the bucks, you will be selected. Cynical? Probably. Realistic? Certainly

I can tell when Beavah is passionate about a subject; he drops an increasing amount of the"friendly furry critter" writing style I see two different issues here: There are cases where unit adults do not have the skills and abilities to serve a particular special need. Those cases seem to result in a quiet mature conversation between CC, SM, and parents The other cases are where a Scout steps across a bright line, and sadly, that particular bright line is the last one the Troop is going to let the boy cross. He has used up his qouta of patience and goodwill, and the Scouters are no longer willing to care about him. I think the circumstances described by CalicoPenn are pretty typical. No one ever said the trail was going to be easy

I'm also in the no soap, ever, camp. If i want to be really, really sure a DO is clean, I'll start by filling the whole thing with water, let it get to the boil, and boil the water 10 minutes. That won't kill everything (only autoclaving will do that), but it gets a lot of stuff down in the pores. Then, I re-season it. When I season a Dutch, my home oven goes to 550F, and it stays there for 2 clock hours, then I let the oven cool to stone cold.

Beavah, You didn't get a cup of coffee from the Commissioner's cabin this morning? That's the service to the major children... OK. I think we agree to respectfully disagree. The opinion I espouse is in part how I conduct my life: Something's wrong, point it out. I honestly believe it's a duty to offer feedback, especially when I am the consumer. When I'm the provider, my job is to offer the best product or service that I can. Of course, there's always another option ... units stop looking for "school" camps, and start looking for places where the youth will have fun by the camps' very nature, and oh by the way, some recognition drops their way naturally. To be honest, the best camp experiences I had as a youth were when I was on a one week backpacking trip. I din't earn a single MB as an accumulation from the week, but I sure remember that trout we caught in the lake and cooked up ... and that was 40 years ago this very summer. I remember going to the range at Scout Camp not to earn a Merit Badge, but instead to learn to shoot, and to start the NRA youth recognition trail. I remember doing the mile swim during the warm part of the day, but I was in a mountain snowmelt fed reservoir.

Beavah, First, at the level you and I volunteer at, Scouting is a business ... a big business. It's a non-profit, but make no mistake, it's a business. Each Council may be in and of itself a small business, but the National Council is big business. The BSA mission is to sell its program and materials to franchisees. BSA puts quality control into its systems. Quality control works both upwards and downwards. Professionals and Council/District level volunteers work with the chartered partners to see, as best they can (the charter agreement is based on voluntary compliance, with a few notable exceptions) to ensure units use the program pretty much as designed. That's why we have lots of training for unit serving volunteers, the three aims, the 8 methods, and on and on... On the other hand, units serve minor children. Those kids cannot speak for themselves when they are ripped off. Someone has to speak for the children. That's where unit serving adult leadership: The Scoutmaster, the Committee Chair, and the Chartered Organization Representative, have a moral obligation to step up to the plate. In this thread, we've been discussing two issues, in the context of a service provided by Local Councils: The Boy Scout Long Term camping experience. The first issue is: Do Scout Camps provide quality instruction in the topics of merit badges? I think we both agree, too many Scout Camps are school under the trees with younger than normal teachers. That's not the point. The point is: Does the Camp provide enough quality skill or knowledge instruction that the consumer (the Scout) legitimately earns the badge? The corollary to that question is: What can a unit do about it when things go awry? In this thread, the OP is at that point: Things went awry. Why did that happen? IMO, it happened for two reasons: The Camp failed to put on a quality program, and the unit failed the Scouts by not highlighting the disconnects while there was time to fix them. Unit serving leadership is the first line of defense, for the youth, that a camp staff presents proper program, that meets the standards of BSA Requirements #33215. See something? Say something! It's easier to make changes at the point of failure, than it is to read a critique sheet and accept it. I've read camp critiques. They don't offer the training aid of seeing the error happen in real time. The Scoutmaster is the principal program officer of a Troop. As Barry says, he's the Guardian. I use the term gatekeeper. They're not truly synonymous, but they get to the point: Youth and families are paying $150 - $300 depending on the Council for a week to 10 days at camp. The parents are expecting the kids to come back from camp with some form of recognition. I'd rather see the kid come home with an honest partial than a diluted Merit Badge. The Scoutmaster has to have eyes and ears out in the Lodges. He has to know that his youth are getting the value they deserve. That, kind Sir, is where I stand. Why? Because of this little goody, found on page 26 of BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088: A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been earned, provided the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge. The second issue is what happens when a camp signs out a Merit Badge? The underage MB sign-outs? On their face, invalid. BSA says 18 years old is the floor, period. Now, the adult sign-outs of improperly trained and tested MBs at camp? Adminstratively, they are valid. I know advancement chairs who'd say "tough" if confronted by an issue of an MB not awarded. It's easier to stop the process before it gets to the point of completion than it is to repair the damage. Councils that allow camps to have substandard instruction and testing? Where were the quality controls? They need to be in two places: The unit leadership, as the consumer, looking in is one place. The Camp Visitation Team, as the accrediting agency of BSA, is the second place. Councils which allow substandard training and testing of Merit Badges are pushing the envelope on the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (the Big Corporation): Article X, Clause 12 (p 17): Examination in Camps Clause 12. a. In special instances, where Scouts are attending educational or similar institutions and/or camps which give an intensive Scouting program, said institutions and camps may, upon application, be authorized by the Corporation to give the prescribed examinations and pass Scouts in such manner and with such special conditions as the facts presented (as to the facilities and leadership of the institution or camp) may, in the judgment of the Corporation, warrant. b. Upon the recommendation of the Corporation, authority may be granted annually for the above privileges to Scout camps or camps conducted by authorized representatives of the Boy Scouts of America that submit evidence of maintaining the program standards, provided their programs have been approved by the Corporation. No exception shall be made to the time requirements to qualify for rank advancement or for the award of Eagle Palms. Is the above an escape clause for units? Only if they know about it. I will continue, as I serve my District by training MB Counselors, to insist Scoutmasters know and evaluate programs and Counselors. It's a check and a balance, the Scoutmaster is the guardian of the 8 Methods. Finally, that we are having this conversation is proof of the quality control BSA has. We've talked about the "uniform police" in other threads. BSA doesn't invest much time or energy in quality control of wearing the uniform, it's 95% voluntary compliance. OTOH, BSA does expend considerable professional and volunteer time and energy looking at compliance with its advancement and recognition systems. The brand names of "Eagle Scout" and "Venturing Silver" seem to be considered worth protecting.(This message has been edited by John-in-Kc)

Dump the powerpoint!!! This is not the time to be a "Powerpoint Ranger." Dump the paper copies, except for some recipes. Use real Dutch ovens, real pie tins, real oil, and real (although unlit) charcoal briquettes. You'll need at least two and maybe 3 ovens. You want one of them to be an unseasoned rustbucket. You want a second one of them to be a great D.O ... that you seasoned yourself. One of the tough things about training aids is deciding what is appropriate and when. My experience is the best training aid is hands on with the real thing, or hands on with a simulator that removes certain safety issues from the real thing. Have fun with this!!!

Get Outdoors: ABSOLUTELY WRONG, SIR. Your first signature is your OK for him to begin the merit badge. The second signature is a contract with the boy: You have received the completed app, and are making a promise that you and the Committee will: - Post the completion to an Advancement Report - Submit the Advancement Report to your Council - Buy the Merit Badge and the MB card - Award the MB at a suitable ceremony. In this case, though, the boy has come to you and said: I didn't meet the standard. He's being Trustworthy with you. IMNSHO, it's your turn to be Trustworthy, Loyal and Helpful by him: - Find him a MB Counselor who will coach him, and who, understanding he's already spent some of his own luchre at camp to earn the MB, will help him do the additional shooting he needs at pro forma costs. - Provide cover and support so the no 1/1 rule of YP is honored between this boy and his Counselor. - HELP HIM honestly earn the badge. Now, you also have hard evidence that your Camp Staff is not living up to their promise. It's time for that businesslike conversation between you and your COR. It's time for your COR to have that businesslike conversation with the Professional your SE has in charge over your Scout Camps. It's time for you to have a friendly cup for coffee with your District Advancement Chair, and ask him to invite the Council Advancement Chair to the coffeeshop. Your Council let your unit and your youth down. That said, again, I hope you were out in the field, looking at the activities in the Lodges, and commenting in real time to the Lodge Directors, the Camp PD, and if needed the Camp Director. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Changing subjects: Like many here, I've held a Red Cross WSI and a BSA Lifeguard certification. I have to agree with folks like Eagle92: The Swimming Merit Badge is not a permanent pass to the waterfont. Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat both require skills knowledge through the use of Ability Groups. To the OP: Keep your youth swimming, challenge them to improve, and if you have doubts about their correct ability group per Safe Swim Defense, have them take the BSA Swim Test!