John-in-KC

Lisa, If you are willing, PM me off list. I will put you in touch with the Dean of our local MBC. His day job is one of the Deans of a four-year liberal arts college. He understands academic organization and production. There are substantial and real challenges here: - Check-in has to run well. Our MBC uses 1-2 staffers, but the check-in packets (and check-out packets) are BY TROOP, not by boy. Leveraging the leaders speeds the process. - Food service has to understand the concept of 11-17 year youth are bottomless pits!!! It also has to provide something for the leaders. - 50:1????? That's WAY TOO LARGE A RATIO!!!!! 25:1 max, and that does not count adult leaders to "help with the paperwork." - A clear understanding up front about fees. - TWO HOURS FOR A MERIT BADGE???? It takes lots of planning (and substantial requirements to be done as pre-requisites (read homework)) to get Cit in Nation down to 3 1/4 hours!!!! I could not teach Cit in Nation to standard in 2. Sometimes sending them "the elephant" in feedback does not help; there's too many negatives, and your comments get blown off. Instead, target what you consider the 3 most important items in your comments. Thanks for the feedback on your program. John A Good Old Owl Too

1. If a MBC is not going to give a Scout a quality experience, open up the search radius. If practical, there's nothing wrong with going out-of district or even out-of Council. Now, that may be tough for folks in Flyover Country, were a District is 150 miles across, but the concept applies. 2. We do. OTOH, our merit badge college is sponsored by a local 4 year liberal arts school. There is some degree of importance in teaching the material "to standard." 3. My Districts' MBC has a MAX of two merit badges, and only one can be from the Eagle list. I counsel Cit in Nation and Cit in World. I KNOW my badges require substantial outside work, or the Scout in question does not depart with a signed card. I'd slow the Scout down and say "enjoy the journey," rather than trying to cram. 4. Yes. See 1 above. 5. This is part of the reason the District Eagle Guest is there; he listens at EBOR's to see if there are quality problems in the program at a very macro level.

I won't say my earning my Eagle Required Cooking Merit Badge made me want to cook, but it did give me essential skills I use almost 40 years later. Take time when your son becomes a Boy Scout, Ms funscout, and help him learn the skills. Helping him learn may help you find the fun again. IMO Cooking should return to the Eagle Required List!!!

Since we are speaking of Venturers, we should note that the Crew, as a collective body, makes a concious decision on uniforming. In my district: - One Crew wears a Class A uniform, substituting Cabela's gray cargo pants (at $19) for BSA Supply Corporation items. - One Crew wears a polo. - One Crew wears blue jeans and a Crew T-shirt. BTW, all three Advisors say "your choice, but you wear what you've chosen."

Thank you OGE. You certainly added value to this thread As far as Q/C of a unit program goes, the Committee should be out watching the program in action. Far better to stop problems before they ever get get to a BOR. Now, considering my District Advancement Chairman, who was training a mew District guest at a recent Eagle BOR in my unit, had the candidate begin by shaking all our hands with the Scout Handshake, then leading us in the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law, I consider that to be valid and viable example for how my units should begin unit level BORs.

Borrowing from OGE's post in Beavah's thread ("The Role of a BOR and "Retesting""), I read the following from the BSA Publication, Advancement Committee, Polcies and Procedures "The Scout should be neat in appearence and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly." Now, that's not policy, that's guidance. I agree with OGE, btw: It also does not mean full Class A uniform. I do read it to mean: What uniform elements a Scout has should be worn to a BOR with pride." So, it's not an excuse, it's within the left and right boundaries of evaluating the program by visiting with the Scout. It also provides a tool in the box for ongoing open ended questions So... as long as I CHAIR BORs, I believe it reasonable the Scout show up "neat in appearence and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly" to the extent the Scout has articles of the Scout uniform.

Ms funscout, Thank you for your input on abortion. As a Dad, one of the greatest days I ever had was seeing my son the first time (by way of a high-res ultrasound) when he was about 5 months in the womb. When I think of the pro-life movement, I look not only at the beginning, but also at the entire life cycle. We lost a lot of ground in the last 30 years as a society. The safety nets once provided by churches, synagogues, and the community in general are long gone. We've replaced them for the most part with layers and layers of governmental employees who don't add a whole lot of value, imo. To your specific comments on abortion, we lack, as a society: - Homes where young women in trouble can bear their child in peace. - Medical care, education, and support while a young woman in trouble is bearing her child. - Adoption laws that allow the passage of parental right, and it doesn't come back down the road (I've changed my mind syndrome). I'm also, probably because I'm a man and not a woman, not as flat-out "no abortion, no way, no how" as you write. Following are my opionions: - A woman should not have to mother a child of rape. - A woman should not have to mother a child of incest. - A woman should not have to choose between her life and her baby's, and indeed, if unconcious, a doctor should have the latitude if needed to take the child if it's life and death. The "health of the mother", though, sounds lots fuzzier to me, and I don't have the wisdom of Solomon (let alone our Lord) to sort that one out. Our culture, though, needs to improve throughout the life cycle. Christian people in particular and people of faith in general need to work harder to help those who are homeless, hungry, and need jobs. We need to do a far better job with the elderly. The warehousing of folks in nursing homes is a travesty of our society. My thoughts. Go in God's peace, and thank you for having given us all something to think on.

The Lodge offers tremendous opportunities for hands-on leadership, for learning to be a Thespian, for service to the unit and Scouting. Encourage your younger son to explore the trail a bit!!! Congratulations to you for being the Mom of two great young men, and to the younger one for going the next step!!

No, now your're putting the onus on the Scout, and some will feel they've passed muster, and others may not. This was a group class. Take the whole package to your District Advancement Chair. Have him "walk the dog" of the requirements. If he says yes, all get the MB. If he says the boys were shorted, then there is work to be done. As I look at the requirements for Cooking, I see each Scout having to prepare SIX MEALS FOR THREE PEOPLE, for himself and two others, plus a Breakfast, a Lunch, and a Dinner for his family. That's nine meals. If I were the District Advancement Chairman, I'd be very curious in how all those meals were done in one four hour cooking session. I'm sounding like the local sportstalk radio station now: "Take this entire situation to the District Advancement Chairman and let him make the call. Take this entire situation to the District Advancement Chairman and let him make the call. Take this entire situation to the District Advancement Chairman and let him make the call." One more time: Take this entire situation to the District Advancement Chairman and let him make the call.

Let's get creative here people. WHY cannot a Patrol take on a service project? G2SS permits them to go camping on their own sans adults. Given, the Scoutmaster needs to give approval. Even so, if we're not inculcating an enviroment of Service To Others, we're playing this Grand Game the way we ought to. This sounds like a great ongoing project for one or two Scouts, or perhaps a Patrol. It may take them and a couple of adults a few weeks to handle the basics, but ongoing mowing, raking, and trimming is much easier than clearing the overgrown weed patch. Don't you WANT to have your Troop visible in the community, cheerfully serving?

OK, I can understand the knowledge and skill requirements. Same concept as Brownsea/NYLT, you have to have a baseline to go forward. WHY THE EXCLUSIVENESS OF SELECTION? is my question. If a Sea Scout meets the baseline and has the $$$, why play "selection games?" If the baseline knowledge and skill requirements need to go up, then do so.

I'm going to take respectful issue with FScouter. I believe on of the jobs of a SM is to get to know the various external MB Counselors the Troop may choose to use. WHY? First, youth protection. Yes, counseling is supposed to be in a public place, yes, counseling is supposed to be minimum 2 Scouts. Operative words: SUPPOSED TO BE. In my neck of the woods, we've had three school teachers/principals arrested for endangering a child with indecent acts in the past month. My paranoia index is pegged higher than usual right now. Second, quality. Why risk substandard presentation/testing of the MB? If a SM knows the lady or gentleman in question has the interest, has the skills, and has the desire to mentor youth, the Scouts served by the SM are likely to get good results. There's a simple way to get to know these fine people: They're the ones who attend District Roundtable. My thoughts.

If a Cub has a RANK completed (Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear), and the Council Registrar has done their job, then the boy will have rank level info in ScoutNet. From a very experienced Cub Scouter, this also includes Activity Pins for the Webelos portion of Cubbing.

Mr SR40Beaver, Trust me; I am nowhere near wise enough to sort this one out. One of our problems is the good news of what is happening in Iraq is not getting out; the troops are forbidden to blog. BTW, in case anyone asks about freedom of speech, a member of the Armed Forces voluntarily suspends some of his rights while he serves, and indeed may suspend other elements lifelong (you should see the security clearance termination agreement we sign).

Infamous double post(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

The Mods and the site owners must have lost their headspace and timing checkgage. John wondering how many others still know how to use a Browning M2 machine gun???

Ed, My operative words were "At a Board I chair" ... Would you, other than an Eagle Board where you are the District Guest, chair a BOR for a Scout you don't know?? I would not; I'd defer to someone else and just be a Member. The young men in the unit I serve have some to all of the Class A uniform. Their wearing the uniform opens the door to a range of open-ended questions on a Scout is Thrifty and a Scout is Clean. At the same time, their unwillingness to wear their uniform, especially to their BOR, opens a door to open ended (and sloping downhill) questions regarding a Scout is Cheerful. Now, let's go and look at the thread in the Uniforms section here introduced by Ms Sunsetandshadow. Implementing the uniform method may mean simply a T-shirt for now, with full uniforms being 4-5 years down the road for the Troop. If I'm in that unit, then we bypass the uniform check and truck on! Common sense has to govern us in this Game...

TryingHard, Thank you for the feedback and accompanying clarification. Given your response: The SM and MBC need assistance and mediation, perhaps on more than one level. Your Unit Commissioner is the right guy to help there. At the same time, FScouter is right: If there are questions of validity of requirements being met (ie issues of no more and no less) in this merit badge training and testing cycle, the District Advancement Chairman will be the decisionmaker. Again, we only have what you give us. From that, my read is: The SM is questioning that the MBC truly ensured the Scouts met the requirements at the "no less" level.

Just over a year ago Mr Williams pulled James J Terry from Kansas City (HOAC) to Irving to be the #4 in National. He is now the Deputy Chief Scout Executive. Shortly after arriving in Texas, Mr Terry found himself sent by Mr Williams to Atlanta. As you might recall, last year Altanta Area Council had a meltdown. Mr Terry was pushed down as a short term National SE to help get things back in order while that Council Executive Board started a new search.

Ladyleader, Because the web-folks have put scouter.com back "on time", my answer precedes your question. For those who wonder, this applies to the ladyleader's post below!!! The Rank card which accompanies the Cub's (Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear) patch is almost always accepted without question. Additionally, unless I'm wrong, Akela still initials the book!! Since Akela can be Mom or Dad as well as you, the book is the source document for advancement info.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I'm not quite in agreement with Eagledad and OneHour. If... - The Counselor is indeed a registered Scouter, as he/she is supposed to be... - The Counselor has completed MBC training, and understands "no more and no less" Then I will absolutely agree with EagleDad and OneHour. If there have been shortcuts along the way, well, that's another, and very sad, story. The concept holds true, though: SM assigns a trained and qualified Counselor. That's the end of his job for a MB, unless he himself is the Counselor. The MB card returned to the unit means the Scout has earned the MB. It's just the lack of information that holds me back from saying this unconditionally. There are facts here we don't have, and I'm not prepared to make a call without them.

I have a friend. We're active in church, we're active Scouters, although in different units in different districts. Our sons have been friends since their Bear year; both are driving on Eagle. Last night, at supper before worship, we both talked about our sons' future. Although both of us gave our professional lives to this Nation, neither of us are ready to look our young men in the eye and advocate the Armed Forces as a profession. Our reasoning is complex, involving people management within DOD as well as issues of the Constitution. We're just not sure about where America is going and how it's going to get there. I'll tell you this: Although I am a conservative Republican, I've put both my Congresscritter and my Senator on the "watch list." Ben Franklin's quote keeps coming back: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It seems to me we are in the middle of Franklin's Conundrum!

Lynda, What arrangements are in place between the judge concerned and the local Council and District? Is perchance the judge an active Scouter in his own right? I do not disagree that kind of option may help quite a few young men and women, but I suspect there is more of the judge's story to be told. I for one would enjoy hearing more about this

John shouts: WHEN I CHAIR A BOARD OF REVIEW, A SCOUT DOES NOT "SUCCEED!!!!" HE ADVANCES IN RANK. I MAY ADJOURN THE BOARD TO MEET AGAIN AT A LATER TIME, BUT SOONER OR LATER, THE SCOUT ADVANCES IN RANK!!! Allow me to explain: I expect a Scout coming to a BOR I chair to be in uniform. I have, malice aforethought, postponed BORs before they even start because the Scout is not prepared (in other words, he wasn't in uniform). Now, there are obvious times to even let that slide. I know a young man who had an Eagle Palm BOR on the Tooth of Time. BFO: Uniform? I don't think so. I expect a Scout, particularly for a Scout seeking First Class or above to be able to lead the Board in the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, and to give all members of the Board the Scout Handshake. Why? IT'S BLOODY HARD TO ASK AN OPEN ENDED QUESTION ABOUT "A Scout is Helpful" when the Scout doesn't know the Law!!! Further, if one of the Methods the BOR reinforces is Adult Association, it's part of most business meetings I partake in to shake hands with friends, co-workers, and the folks at the table. I've been lucky. I can count on one hand with fingers left the number of times I've adjourned a Board, to meet again at a later date because the Scout concerned had not applied our Motto "Be Prepared" to himself.

Lots of missing info here. Are both the SM and the MC(MBC) current in their training??? Is the MC(MBC) current on the Council and/or District MBC list? Is there any other agenda at all between the SM and the Scout, the SM and the Scouts' parents, or the SM and the MBC??? This doesn't have to be Scouting related. (Sadly, yes I've seen grudges between grownups carry over to the Troop). The RIGHT PERSON to settle this, if it gets to that level, is the District Advancement Chairman. His responsibilities include the training program for Merit Badge Counselors. The UC is a good mediator choice. OPINION: The "Game with a purpose" works a whole lot better if Scouts and Scouters alike understand the first three words of the Scout Oath: ON MY HONOR...