John-in-KC

I cannot answer the other questions, but it sounds to me like the ASM being a WBer working his ticket is the least of all problems here. Please note: We never have all the info here in these posts. We're working with what you give us. WBer working his ticket or no, if the SM and CC are having problems with this Scouter, they need to have a cup of coffee with him. This cup can be done either individually or together, but it needs to be done away from the Scouts. The gent is an ASM; he is a program side Scouter who operates under the leadership/management of the SM. His tasks and expectations are given him by the SM. If he takes issue with tasks or expectations, that needs to be done away from the youth. If the ASM takes issue with policies or practices, that again is between him and the SM. By policy (maybe not by this Troops actual practice), the SM is ex officio a member of the Troop Committee. ASMs are not. The CC needs to be at these meetings to re-emphasize that the SM is the program officer, and accountable to the CC and the COR for delivering the program. Obviously, as the SM and CC are doing this, they need to be seeking inputa and feedback from the ASM. There may be something he sees as a new pair of eyes that is no longer inside BSA policy and practice. We've all had National give us a "gotcha," whether it's a change to a MB program or a safety practice. The CC and SM should listen for feedback, and if appropriate, make the change. Let's hope all concerned get the burrs out from under the saddles with a simple offsite visit over coffee. Now, that may not work. If things do not right themselves, the CC, working with the SM, needs to keep the COR and the serving UC informed. This ASM may have to be re-assigned to a committee-side position. The worst case option is that the CC has to tell the Scouter "sorry, your services are not needed in this Troop. I will so inform the COR, and have your position on-charter changed to Committee Member forthwith. You will be a committeeman without portfolio." Let us know how this works out.

Three other things: Facilities: I know, especially considering the CO thread, but they need to be in the loop in sharing thanks to wherever you're actually housed (BTW, in my youth we were chartered by a local Kiwanis, but met at the local jr high). Property: What you have, what may need replacing... Plans: "Big picture" of where the Troop wants to be a year from now.

Above and beyond G2SS here are National Camp Standards and the local Scout Reservation implementation procedures. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but the BFO here is that the newspaper article does not begin to give us all the data. We'll just have to wait and see now. Anyone care to bet any currently registered Scouters would be excluded for cause during voir dire?

At some point I will go and find an early "Scouting for Boys" and see what B-P had to say on this... 1972, hmmm? Only 34 years, and the tradition isn't quenched yet.

I used to be an OWL, and I'm working a 12 hour night shift, so if a FOX posts by midnight Central, I'll take care of us nocturnal hunters! John C-40-05

Wow, Lisa, a lot of meat on those bones. As far as serving the members directly, that came from a couple of Second Class "service hour" projects I've seen. In the cases I know of, we're talking about folks who are fundamentally shut-ins. If they're older but healthy, it may not be needed. Here's something my church pre-teen youth group does: Adopt-a-grandparent. Child does things actively with the older partner (and vice versa). My own son is 17 now, but his relationship with his adopted grandparents is strong and loving. One of our Eagles, for his project, in the case of our chartered partner (a local VFW) did the Veteran's oral history project from the Library of Congress. Everyone has a story, and getting the story out of these folks matters. I think the idea of supporting service causes and projects the Lions have interest in is good. Why give your hours elsewhere when your partner has a program that supports and fulfills the Citizenship aim of Scouting? I've found Scouting, as an adult to be my "civic activity" home. There may be adults, within the Troop, who are or soon will be looking for things to do as the nest empties. Perhaps joining the Lions might be a fit. Certainly, sharing information with adults about who Lions are and what they do would be a help! Here's an idea: You're fairly close to going to Scout camp for the summer now. Many camps have a Visitor's Night, some have a Visitor's Sunday (my council still has 10 day camps and thus a full day). Instead of just inviting the Lions, personally invite them and their spouses, and offer rides, to let them come and see what these youth are doing. Overall, I guess the short version of what I'm writing is: Work to mingle the two generations! YIS

Dan, Here you are: The Chartered Organization Representative, BSA #33117, Training the Chartered Organization Representative, BSA #34527. The District, BSA #33079, Who "Owns and Operates" a Pack, Troop, or Crew? Official BSA documents reveal that the chartered organization owns and operates the pack or troop and is therefore responsible for its operation. "The Chartered Organization Representative", published by the BSA, states with emphasis, "The Units Belong to Your Organization . . . Packs, Troops, Teams, and Posts are Owned, Operated and Administered by "Community-based Organizations." The policy -- that the Boy Scouts do not own individual units, but are only there to serve the chartered organization -- goes back to the early days of Scouting. Does that answer the mail? There is also a squib in a Venturing powerpoint I saw that reminded leaders that a unit is not a separate entity, and that property (canoes, trailers, etc) must be registered in the name of the chartered organization.

No, no, no... If you go back and look in earlier editions of the Boy Scout Handbook, you will find splitting the pinky finger WAS the Boy Scout Handshake. You made the handshake off the left hand doing the Scout Sign. I gather the weenies at National were too old to split their fingers when they came up with the most recent change to the handbook. There is also an OA handshake. I won't go into that one.

scoutldr said> If I were you, I'd be looking for a new CO. There's one huge problem here: The matter of Troop funds and property. If the Chartered Partner says "We wish to retain the equipment and funds against the future reorganization of a Troop," then the Troop loses everything ... tents, patrol boxes, dutch ovens, the troop trailer, you name it, it's gone. That is their side of the charter agreement. The object of this exercise is to get this relationship back on its feet. At the very last, one option is to go (preferably with the DE and a Commissioner) to the Chartered Partner and ask "Are you still willing to charter Boy Scout units? If not, we'd like to find them a more active Partner. When we find one, we would ask you pass along the Troop property to the new Partner." I've seen the consequences of changing a Chartered Partner and not doing it well. Troop was out $$$$ for both their Treasury and the Troop equipment. Troop had to start over. Not Good.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Mr Kroh, I believe our conversation within this thread has reached a culmination. I believe some of the signal I tried to send was lost for the fact we are typing messages vice talking in person. I would urge you to sit down with the Pastor of a local church and ask about how Law convicts and how Gospel forgives, and how Christians are to live in love. The Law points out our sin. The Gospel show us forgiveness, and how to live in love.

FScouter... I think this one best covers that... Council-Organized Family Camp Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as Parent/Pal or Adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. In most cases, the youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. This last sentence is where I get 1:1. Now, a couple more things to help the cubs and leaders have fun... Bring along a propane lantern for after the campfire. The Cubs will be hitting the racks, but a few minutes with the leaders can be invaluable in looking into the morrow. Either bring an ice chest with ice or buy some ice. Sometimes, a cold rag on the back of the neck will cool you (or a kid) down in short order. If the Cubs are having to go to the bathroom, that's a good thing. If they aren't, it's time for the Philmont salute: Chug a Nalgene of water! I cannot overemphasize keeping the little ones (and you) hydrated.

I will agree with both Beavah and CP. BTW, CP, the funds and equipment inure to the chartered partner for the further support of Scouting. If the chartered partner decides to withdraw its support from Scouting, they are expected to surrender funds and equipment to the Council for redistribition to needy units. NOW, that said... Most Councils I know have already collected the funds for Scout camp from the units. It would be an honorable thing for the unit to coordinate with the council for funds spent anticipating the departing boys attending camp to have those funds transferred. That way, the Scouts get to go to camp. If I was either CC or SM of the new unit, I would ask for assistance from my UC, COR, and DE in this matter. The object of our adult work is to serve the boys. Will everything actually happen? Dunno. Now we get people involved, and people are not abstractions; they are individuals, with likes, dislikes, ideals, and prejuidices all their own. Let us know how this works out.

Well, let's start with the mandatory 1 parent to 1 child ratio for Cub camping. I assume you are doing this at a council approved cub camp, per the Guide to Safe Scouting. From G2SS, the following is boldface and thus BSA policy: Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council. from the Family Camping paragraph: Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426. I assume you are BALOO trained, or else you are going to a Council sponsored/supported camp. Water, water, water. Cool, not ice cold (you can chug cool water, ice cold you have to back off after a few swallows, then you think you've quenched the thirst, but you haven't. Simple foods the cubs can help do, like foil dinners and roast corn on the cob. Don't let the Cubs bring soda and candy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't let the Cubs bring soda and candy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (it bears repeating) Do your planning and have the Pack do your Tour Permit in a timely fashion (most councils want them into the system 2 weeks before the depart date)

Lisa, Other things: Patrol Good Turns ... mowing members lawns, helping them with the gardens, getting to know some folks who were stalwarts of the community. Invite them to a potluck COH (I know, most units don't do dinners anymore... too many parents can't/won't cook), and assign each patrol a member and his/her spouse. Make them feel special. Dedicate the Troops service project time to Lions activities. As I recall, Lions are strong about collecting old eyeglasses for reuse in countries where glasses are precious items indeed. Hit me in private message if you need to. I'll be glad to give you my spin as a serving COR. John

Mr Kroh, First, to make sure we agree in terms, the Law I speak of is that which in in the OT. Talmud does not count. God has a standard, and it's absolute obedience to all the Law. One, and only One, kept that standard: God in the flesh, Christ Jesus. My trying to claim any salvation by my own merits will result in my Judgment and Damnation by God. NO MAN now walking Earth keeps the Law. God provided the way out: Christ, his suffering, death, and resurrection. Being able to believe in Jesus Christ as the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and Savior for me is what will give me hope when I leave this earth. In the meantime, do I try to live as God would have me live? Yes. He helps me with that task, through the power and love of the Holy Spirit. Right now, I'd rather suspect He'd be as happy if I get off my posterior and start exercising again as in keeping the dietary laws. After all, why are they there? A sacrifice by man? No. A health code in an era where refrigeration just did not exist? Yes. Go in peace. Campcrafter: Very long story, but I got to LC-MS by way of LCA, and even was on the call committee for an ELCA pastor to the inter-lutheran parish in Frankfurt, FRG (Trinity).

To Mr Kroh, No one living today on this earth can keep God's Law. I certainly cannot. One, and only one man in all of pre-history and history did. His name is Jesus. He was born of Mary. His father is the Lord God. He is the Christ, the Emmanuel. He is the second person of the Trinity, God. Without taking Scripture out of context, let me point you to Matthew 22:35-39 (NIV): One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Even to do this much, I need the help of God!! So, by not keeping kosher, am I Damned? Yes. Only by accepting God's own complete sacrifice do I have a hope of eternal life with God in Heaven. Just as I am damned because I do not keep kosher, so is the homosexual person damned for his or her acts. Only by the grace of God's perfect sacrifice, God Himself in the person of Christ Jesus dying on the Cross, risen from the grave, and ascended to come again, will he or she have a hope of eternal life with God in Heaven. As to campcrafter: I find myself economically and largely socially a conservative. I exercise my faith in the context of a lutheran church. While most of my current worship (I am laity) is from the hymnal Lutheran Worship, I have celebrated the mass (lower case m, just as it's lower case c for catholic in the ecumenical creeds) in German. I listen to elements of the mass in Latin as part of the music i enjoy. To return to the key elements of our conversation: It's blindingly obvious to me that God designed man and woman to couple together as though they were Lego blocks. There's one engineered way. Everything else is a "sorta-fit," and poses risks, some little, some not for the partners. Man and woman was God's designed combination. All else is from man.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I'll say my piece as a conservative, liturgical Christian and as a Republican... Homosexuality is sin. So is lusting for another man's wife. We've all fallen short of the standard God set for us. He knows I have; I end up admitting it to Him daily. I find it interesting that we men can decide to change the standard God set "on the fly." Yes, there are pieces of Scripture open to some interpretation. The Law as presented in the Pentateuch isn't one of those pieces. Bringing an amendment to the floor of the Senate that is (most likely) going to fail in flames is, indeed, pandering to the Republican base. I'm a member of that base, and I think there are some more important issues to deal with ... energy independence, the entire economic engine of America (but starting with immigration) and the national debt are just three. My Senators got letters asking them to please get back to the real problems of our Nation. OK. I'm done. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Tot'N Chip gets a patch? All I ever got was my card. I'm going to have to google that site on the history of the Tot'N Chip again.

Two comments: The charter comes off the same laser printer as do the BSA membership cards. The registrar loads a full sheet of the colored paper in, hits print, and whammo! Charter. Call your DE, and get him in gear on producing the charter. Of course, getting that COR is something holding up the show, unless the Exec Off is willing to service in both until he selects a permanent COR. Eamonn ... As a COR, I've withdrawn charter presentations from my UCs until they actually show up to be the units' friend. Invisible commissioners hinder forward movement!

Lest you forget, Carol, There were thousands of US soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines serving in stations that went "in harms way" on Dec 7, 1941... Pearl Harbor Wake Island Guam Corregidor Bataan Panama Canal Zone East coast shipping lanes Carribean shipping lanes The rearguard fights of each and every one of these young men allowed the US the remaining time it needed to arm, train and deploy. There were three months between the surrender of Corregidor to the Japs and the start of the Guadalcanal campaign ... two months between it and Midway ... The Japs took my father through three years of slavery ... at Cabanatuan, in the construction of additional runways at Nichols Field (now Manila International Airport), and in Baron Mitsui's coal mines on Kyushu. He was but one of thousands. To this day he calls them %%%%%%% Japs. Sorry ... you hit my soapbox button!

Mr acco40, Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that statement also in the BSA uniform guide???

Safety Afloat is not stand-alone from Safe Swim Defense, it is a supplement to SSD. Here's the POLICY part from G2SS: "and be dedicated to full compliance with all nine points of Safety Afloat." Now, to me, dedicated connotes "not skirting around, but rather meeting intent and letter of policy." I suggest all read this segment. While it's not boldface, it pretty well says the intent: "All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children in his or her care, who is experienced and qualified in the particular watercraft skills and equipment involved in the activity, and who is committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat. One such supervisor is required for each 10 people, with a minimum of two adults for any one group. At least one supervisor must be age 21 or older, and the remaining supervisors must be age 18 or older. All supervisors must complete BSA Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training and rescue training for the type of watercraft to be used in the activity, and at least one must be trained in CPR. It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat." Now, you can parse if you want to, but the idea is simple: "BE PREPARED." Where have I heard that before? To CNY: While you are the one who has to live with these folks inside your district, I'd recommend a heart-heart talk with the Troops COR and UC. If something goes wrong, the Chartered Partner's liability insurance may well take a hit FScouter, Let's pray nothing happens. Given my understanding (I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV),, if something happens this will be entirely on the leaders and Chartered Partner's backs... BSA and Council have more than met the "reasonable man" standard by providing training, policies, and "best practices." It's sorta like sod surfing ...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Momscout, Welcome to the campfire. Scouting has plenty of age-appropriate activities. He'll do Bobcat, and then go on to the Webelos program. The whole idea is to make his life in his den a grand game. As several have said, if he's with a friend, it will go better

LH, The issue here is the way Mr or Ms Gilski gave us the info. If all is as it's written, then there is more work to do than simply doing service time. To me, at 2d Class, Star, and Life, the idea is to inculcate the habit of service by doing just that: Serving. For these projects, the scout is part of the labor pool. Only at Eagle does the requirement become design, coordinate, obtain approval for, and execute... One of the problems I see, though is the "but we did out service hours..." whine. The habit is not yet ingrained.

Common sense would go a long way to fixing the problem. Leave camp with a buddy; don't go alone. Tell your patrol leader or a grownup you're gone. Isn't this the stuff we teach in the tour permitting process for us grownups? We don't need to hang "find me" tools; we need the leaders to work to instilling common sense. Isn't common sense part of leadership development, and isn't leadership development one of the METHODS of the boy scout program?