John-in-KC

That's a very interesting interpretation of the rules for an open merit badge. Feedback is a gift. First, let me make sure I understand what your Council Advancement Committee says: When a MB has a requirements update, work done under the old requirements has a six month shelf life, after which the youth must re-start the badge. Did I correctly interpret the message your Council Advancement Committee sent? Of course, here is my question back to the Council: How do you know what requirements were used? The Advancement report only calls for MB completion!

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acco40, One reason we get the responses you describe is our relative anonymity here on the boards. We have nicks, not our real names. Most of us do not put a whole lot in our profiles. We also have an array of experience, from "been there and done that" to "ACK!? What do I do now?" One thing I do like here is that many people do have deeper Scouting libraries than I do, and they are quite willing to share. It's not easy figuring out the right thing to do, and trying to look downstream to 2d and 3d order consequences is daunting at best. Even so, I firmly believe what I've been told in WB and at Commish college: Everything old is new again. SOMEONE out there has had my particular challenge +/- 5%. I also appreciate that we often are pragmatic with program (how do we best serve the youth) and pedantic about safety (sod-surfing comes to mind, as it did with Lisa). I've been a Notifiication Officer in my Army life ... it's hell, folks. I NEVER want to do it for a Scout in my charge !! Finally, I find it interesting how tight-knot the Scouting family is: One of my sons' best friends, who moved to Indianapolis a few years ago (they are IM and phone friends these days) went to NOAC last week. There he encountered a friend of mine, an Associate Advisor to our own Lodge. YIS

WOOOHOOO!!!! Congratulations Kristi. May you have a fun time in Gilwell Field real soon John I used to be an Owl, C-40-05

What I want to see is when CNYScouter's council really goes through the re-chartering process and denies charters to units. It seems to me a small council will suddenly grow a lot smaller. Wonder how that Scout Executive and his DE's are going to do on their next FOS campaign??? Mind you, as a COR, I actively encourage the leaders of my units to take training and attend roundtable. For Beavah: In the adult training/education world of which I was once a part (to wit, US Army), TRAINING connoted mastery of an array of tasks ... some mechanical, some cognitive. EDUCATION connoted development of processes at deeper than the analytic level. LEARNING was the receipt, process, and employment of new tasks, processes and skills by the student.

Mr Busy Beaver, Welcome to our virtual Gilwell Field. The Quartermaster Shack is out of coffee, again. You'll have to bring your own. Please remember... WOOD BADGE ORDER... when we sing a round of Back to Gilwell We were waiting on Eagles and Foxes (Hopefully you see my tongue is firmly in cheek!) CONGRATULATIONS on completing the coursework, may your ticket go smoothly and well! Kristi... WOOHOO!!!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! DETAILS, GIRL!!! When/Where??? John Owls, C-40-05 Finished another ticket item last week. It's down to the follow-on training!

Looks like a tempest in a teapot to me. I see a young Lady of the Venturing persuasion in what I perceive to be her Crew's uniform (or her Crew's Class B uniform).

For a brief interlude, whilst I await the turn of the glorious OWLS... Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness ... Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, Waiting for the Eagles and the Foxes... Waiting for the Eagles and the Foxes... Waiting for the Eagles and the Foxes... Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness ... Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, Waiting for the Eagles and the Foxes. John Owls, C-40-05 Two major ticket items finished off this month, all that's left is some training ... and then I can keep working my ticket...

Territory Manager, Welcome to the Campfire and thank you!!! We look forward to hearing lots of ground truth from you

I have yet to see anyone say these are Class A pants and they are qualified to replace the "de la Rentas" for purposes of the uniform inspection worksheet. Would someone care to make that authoritative statement, or has Supply Corporation missed the boat again??? Hell's Bells, I once commented that the BSA Philmont Shorts have a BSA Official Uniform Tag in them (same in fact, as my Green Shorts), and the UP shot them down as Class A shorts.

The Moms of the Troop of my youth used a kelly green with white bordered neckerchief for us. I would start with the BSA standard neckerchief. Add 1" to the width of the two sides opposite the hypotenuse (then it approaches the more historic size, and is capable of being a tie for a bandage). The colors should be something the PLC thinks will stand the test of time. I haven't seen many neckerchiefs with more than 3 colors. As far as design, they can pick almost anything. They can scan almost any image into digits, and if there isn't an embroiderer up there in St Joe, there sure is down here in KC metro!! Then it's simply a matter of pricing, so cost can be built into first years dues. In my current Troop, we have a patch we use as an overage to the BSA black/red necker. Hit me in PM and I'll be glad to email what we do to you

Mr or Ms grogaardk, Welcome to the campfire. Coffee's on the rock over there. If a leader wants to create a new unit, he or she needs to find: - A Chartered Partner willing to live up to the obligations of the BSA Charter Agreement, to include an IH and a COR. - 5 youth - 1 Program officer - (??? Someone back check me) 1 Asst program officer - 1 Committee Chairman - 2 other Members of Committee and the necessary funds to put the unit onto the books. Those are the standards...

I'm old school. The MB counselors of my youth wanted to meet at the start of the process, explain requirements, and offer encouragement. I know that when my son went out-of-Troop for MBs (family life and personal fitness especially come to mind), he went and visited with the Counselor before the clock was wound. I like that idea. To me, it feels like the Adult Association Method in practice.

PeteM, Like so many others, welcome to the forums. Reading Aquila Calva's post, I think he may have a point about the Scouts appearing before the Committee. There's a Scouting tool, part of the Adult Association method, to help with this: It's called a Board of Review. BORs don't just have to happen at rank advancement. This is an ideal time for both young men to appear. One consequence I would seriously explore, with each of these young men, either in SM conference or BOR, is re-setting their Scout Spirit tenure clocks. Can any of us here honestly say these young men showed Scout Spirit? If your local County offers jail visits as part of consequence management for youthful offenders (Scared Straight), this may be another opportunity.

What FScouter said, in general. As always, we don't necessarily have all the story here. If a Chartered Partner is living up to its side of the agreement between it and the local Council, then this DE is out of school. The Chartered Partner can make havoc for the local Council. OTOH, if the CP has not met its obligations... Not being an attorney, nor playing one on TV, I cannot tell how the issue of property and funds will play out. In general, though, property and funds are the Chartered Partner's for use in the Scouting program. Only if a CP abandons its charter is it to turn over property and funds for redistribution. That's at least what the Council COR trainer taught me.

OK. Physical fitness requirement for TF is a 30 day window. Unless the Scout BORs TR, 2C, and 1C in one night, there is a LOT happening in that one month. Additionally requirement 3 for 1C is 10 troop/patrol activities (other than meetings) since joining. How many troops have 10 campouts, hikes, swims, ad infinitum in a 30 day period. Finally, 1C to Star takes 4 months TENURE all by itself. We never have all the info here, but I would not be surprised if some of the advancement was being "pencil-whipped" and the boy is being shortchanged by parents and/or (but hopefully not) leaders. This is not good. Actually, FS, if you think there is legitimate reasons to question trustworthiness, you can inform your CC you intend to have a quiet talk with the District Advancement Chair! FS, thanks for sharing; understand your frustration (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

We have two. Long: We are the WISE OWLS!! HootHoot! Short: Hoot! ... HOOTOWLS!!!! Oh, and we had a counter-yell to anybody elses: CRITTER!!! TASTES LIKE CHICKKKKKENNNNNN!!! John A Good Old Owl Too C-40-05(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

My son's a staffer this year, he has both his Troop and Crew Class A uniforms in his cabin. He was issued 4 staff shirts for his particular camp, and 2 for the reservation. He is expected to wear: BSA socks BSA shorts Scouting belt (he has a choice of his MOS, Philmont, and generic scouting leather belt) Staff shirt OA coup thong MOS claws Only at campfire are Class A uniforms in play, depending on weather dependent (heat alert 1 (WBGT > 95F) takes them out of play. I sent him to Scout Camp at Geiger (St Joe, MO) to get him a week of camp before he went into job mode. There he had: A variety of camp shirts and day camp j-staff shirts from the past couple of years. Blue jeans for work day. Grey Cabela's shorts (what our Crew elected for Class A pants/shorts). Scout shorts. Scout and Venturing Class A shirt. OA coup thong MOS claws Class A for supper, please As a Tribesman, for Thursday night and Friday night ceremony he had an array of ceremonial regalia and mandatory moccasins (hard sole, naturally). In prior years, at H Roe Bartle, he's worn the shorts he took on the mountain trek at Philmont (2003), Philmont shorts, blue jeans, and his Class A uniforms for chapel and Call Night campfire. Oh. He had his Tribal attire last year for MOS elevation. Was this TMI?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I agreed to attend because my son's SM/Advisor was a Troop Guide for the course, and he was out twisting arms for recruitment Once we got going, our Patrol stayed at it because we had all been there and done that, and we weren't going to "let no stinkin' SPL" prove he could pressure US. When we REALLY got going, we found a great group of Scouters who cared about each other and the program, and we've integrated ourselves into each others resource pool! John A Good Old Owl Too C-40-05 About to start one of my major ticket projects ... Commissioner service at Scout Camp!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Lisa, Feedback is a gift ... How do you plan to deal with the Troop who WON'T TAKE THE TRAINING? You're going to get people who care, who want to do their part. Their committees may not support them. I'd love to see every Committee take the challenge. This, however, is our real world: Not all will. Not a question you need to answer in forum ... but I toss it to you as serious food for thought. My opinion is we have to find ways to serve the leaders who care enough, but opinions are... well, let's not go there

One more comment: OA Troop Rep IS a Position of Responsibility under the current advancement policies. Scouts plainly see it in the list of positions set forth in the Boy Scout Handbook! As to the Scoutmaster declaring who will be Candidates, that is something for a heart-to-heart talk between the Committee and the Scoutmaster at the coming TC meeting!! SM and CC get ONE ADULT NOMINATION per year per Troop (there are exceptions, but they come along rarely) to work, but if an election team knows its stuff, they should refuse to hold a "non-election."

To help with some of the other questions: - In each Troop there is a youth office: The OA Troop Representative. His jobs are: 1) To go to Chapter meetings, get information, and bring it back, and 2) to take Troop input to the Chapter meeting. - Chapters are sub-units of the Lodge. They are directly associated with Council Districts. In many councils, chapter meetings are held concurrently with Roundtable. If your OATR does not know who his chapter chief and chapter advisor are, the next person up that food chain is the chairman of the District Camping operating committee (part of the District Committee). - There is also the matter of tracking the Council Calendar. I'm finding more and more Councils keep their calendars, to include Lodge activities, online. - Finally, while the SE is the Supreme Chief of the Fire, many SEs appoint their scout reservation director to be the staff advisor to the lodge. In turn, he can put your OATR in touch with the Lodge Chief, one of the Vice-Chiefs, or the Secretary. I hope all this helps. ICS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Jeff, Welcome to the Boy Scout side of the campfire. There's coffee in the pot I'm becoming convinced EVERY Scouter working the Boy Scout program needs two books in his/her library: - The Scoutmaster's Handbook (BSA 33309) - The Troop Committee Guidebook (BSA 34505B) PROGRAM OFFICERS (Den LEaders, Cubmasters, Scoutmasters, and Advisors) and their Assistants have a gut-check responsibility: DELIVER THE SCOUTING PROGRAM to the youth. A particular responsibility of the Scoutmaster is mentorship to the youth; Scoutmaster conferences are one of the vehicles by which he does that. Although a SM conference can be done any time a Scout wants one, it's one of the mandatory checks on the way to rank advancement. The BOARD OF REVIEW is conducted by the Troop Committee. I quote from the Troop Committee Guidebook: "When a Scout has completed all the requirements ofor a rank, he appears before a board of review composed of atl least three and not more than six committee members. "The reivew has three purposes: "To make sure that the work has been learned and completed. "To find out what kind of experience the Scout is having in his patrol and troop. "To encourage the Scout to progress further. "The board of review is not a time to retest the Scout, but to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting ideals."... HTH. YIS

ADC is Assistant District Commissioner. If there is no District Commissioner, the next step up is to contact the Council Commissioner. He can bring resources from across the Council to bear. District Executives (professional staff) have significant responsibilities, but individual unit health is not one of them. That is the province and responsibility of the Commissioner's Service, working with the Chartered Partner (IH and COR). DE's big three items (just had this conversation with one of our DEs at Bear Camp Sunday night are: - Youth Membership - Adult volunteers, especially above the unit level. - Fund raising - Youth Protection (in most jurisdictions, this is a statutory obligation).

I'm wholeheartedly with Eamonn here. As a MC, a CC, and a COR, the one thing I CONSISTENTLY hear from our District Guest at an Eagle Board of Review is the message of "You are, as of RIGHT NOW, an Eagle Scout." The only thing the SE sees is a completed app. The only thing National sees is a completed app.