John-in-KC

Going forward... Kids have dumb attacks. Parents need to be informed, by a Scouter who was on the outing, that the kids had dumb attacks. This should happen with parents and kids together at the end of the outing, so everyone has a straight story. It's all about communication and discretion.

Lisa, May we agree to disagree slightly on this one? In our own Districts, we both know Scouters who are LE professionals. I truly believe they should be part of the friendly talk (same level player as CM/CC and before the COR has to be involved). Hopefully they can get the Dad's undivided attention. If the issue is alcohol breath but not drinking (as we've read there are medical possibilities), then they also have the good skill of gracefully sliding away. Does that make sense? YIS John

Welcome to both NCM07 and DZ! (I know I'm a little late on the welcome DenZero). As Trevorum said, thank you for volunteering. I promise it will be fun and rewarding. It may well be work for you, but the kids will get KISMIF (keep it simple, make it fun). Scouting is not BabySitters of America, and even more so at the Cubbing level. Parents need to be active participants. Tigers in particular require 1/1 ratio! Based on what you've given us... 1) You may have consolidated dens (Tiger/Wolf, Bear, and Web 1/2... or any number of combinations), but you need to split the kids by age. I don't know your age mix, so I can't help you do that division. 2) You need helpers. That means recruiting Den Leaders and getting them to training. That's one place your UC can help, if you need an out-of-cycle Cub Leader specifics training (along with BSA New Leader Essentials and Youth Protection), he can help obtain it. 3) Ask the area Troops for reach-back support by furnishing Boy Scouts who will serve as Den Chiefs. A good Den Chief can really stretch the time and abilities of a Den Leader 4) Attend Rountable, read Scouting Magazine, look at the National Program. Cubbing, if you use the National program, almost presents itself. I'll have more to write later, but I have things to do with EagleSon. God Bless and Welcome!!!

Absent the backstory, Beavah describes good process! Yes, the boys are the program, but that does not relieve the Scoutmaster in particular of responsibility for cross-communication! If the SM was not on the trip, the role passes to the leader in charge for the weekend. You have to communicate, you have to obtain the feedback (it's a gift!), and you have to process the feedback into information going forward... and then you repeat the process.

In my neck of the woods we have a Pack/Troop whose CO is a church. The troop wears purple in some form or other all the time. Whether by CO mandate or not, they do it, and the COR has beaten back his fair share of challenges by saying simply "Would you invite the Regional President to visit with me please." Yes, they do wear purple shoulder loops. In two area Councils, Scout Camp Staff wear special shoulder loops. One simply has STAFF embroidered on the BSA silver loop, the other buys different ribbon each year and issues each Scout and Scouter on staff 2 sets. Our District also awards Scouts who support 3 flag openings at RT or District Dinner R/W/B shoulder loops.

Beavah has it better than I, keep it as low level as you can. If you are confident in having the friendly talk by yourself, do so. If you think the friendly talk would be aided with a Scouter who is also LE professional, go there. Elevate only as you must, it is hard for the kid to be a Cub if the main wage earner cannot bring home the bacon.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Dad enlisted in 1941. The Campaign Hat was a basic part of his uniform. The board-stiff brim is part of the modern ARmy and Marine Drill aura.

Welcome again! There are two challenges running here. The first is the health and safety of the child. There are two ways to approach this: - First is to contact, through your CM/CC, your friendly Unit Commissioner. I'm willing to bet hard cash there is a law enforcement professional who is also a Scouter. He might be willing to help you have a "friendly" conversation, and explain the no-alcohol rule of Scouting. - The more direct way is simply to contact local law enforcement. I'd coordinate this with your CM, CC and Chartered Organization Representative, so they know what's going on. Share your concerns and where/when you meet. You've got a name and a vehicle license, so that will help law enforcement. The second challenge is keeping the young man in Cubbing. Is Mom in the situation?

Welcome. Mom and Dad live in the Carson Valley, though I'm out in Kansas City. May you have many years following the Scouting trail!

Very serious question: What is the BSA stock or bin number for that Daily Gazette? Please forgive me, but I sure as **** did not see that in my courseware at all. I got told by my SPL/PD, SM/CD and more than one District Commish that once you take the taupe necker, your student days are done. Of course, if you choose to re-take, that is a different animal. Can any of the Course Directors here make comment?

HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!! YOU AIN'T HAD MAC AND CHEESE UNTIL YOU'VE HAD MY HOME-MADE MAC AND CHEESE In my white sauce, I substitute extra virgin olive oil for the butter. I do have to add salt, some pepper, thyme, and oregano to overcome the olive oil. I use lower-fat cheese, but do not use no-fat. Doesn't work. I also add cheese into my white sauce as well as cheese as part of my top layer. Use dry bread crumbs in olive oil, salt and pepper (instead of butter). Bake at 350 for 30 minutes and it's what my Mom made

Cubmaster Randy wrote: "They can, if they wish, also wear the particpant kneckerchief after they complete their ticket with their leather woggle and beads." HUH??? Would you please cite that from the Uniform Guide or the WB Administrative Guide? I've not heard that line before... I may be a Uniform Licensee, but absent a hard citation, that sounds out beyond the pale.

Kudu hit another great point: Quality, Fun, Learning, meeting time week to week. The youth have to want to come I'm not an advocate of doing the MB at the meeting, but setting a group task such that the youth can easily earn a MB (particularly the physical exertion MBs of cycling, hiking, and backpacking) can make for great program. I've seen Troops which chose to do the Cycling training rides across several months as an activity evening for the whole Troop, then build the 50 miler as a campout weekend.

I recently had some really abused Dutch's come my way. I baked both of them for four hours AFTER the oven got to 500F. I took a nylon scrub pad to them, the carbon came right out. A high heat bake will carbonize almost anything, and a good seaonsing afterward (a friend who is an expert Dutch Ovener uses extra virgin olive oil, 350F, again for two hours) gets the job done.

Scoutldr, What we have here... is a two-edged sword. If this Troop follows the guidelines in ACP&P/BSA Requirements... - Tags a MB Counselor with the responsibility - Issues a Blue Card to the Scout with the Counselor's Name and Address info filled in ... then a Scout is Trustworthy, I expect the Scout to go to Counselor X. If this Troop tells its Scouts... "Take the training at Camp, but we will issue the MB Card and do the review phase when you get back home", then they are, as far as I can tell, inside the program. If this Troop signs a blue (white, whatever) card, but does not accept it back at the end of camp, then there's a quality control issue in the advancement program. I keep asking what is the backstory; I don't think I have enough info to make a decision. I do have to wonder why this Troop uses a Camp where they believe its advancement program is not worth the time of its Scouts, though...

I guess I'm old skewl on this one... Do the 2d Class and First Class cooking in sequence, building the Scouts' most basic ability to burn the meat and scorch the oatmeal Then, let them attack the Merit Badge and improve their skills, so that they don't scorch the milk when scalding it for a sourdough starter! I AM old skewl on this; Cooking was an Eagle Required MB when I was a youth. I've written before that if I were the National Advancement Chair for 1 day, it would be again. I believe it a fundamental and essential skill of adulthood in the 21st Century, much as First Aid and Personal Management are! Yes, you can do them concurrently, but, from my personal perspective, I'd urgently recommend doing them sequentially. My thoughts.

The Turk's Head is what the BSA standard neckerchief slide represents! Go for it! Asides: If you make your own rope, use good cordage that will make really good rope for them. Kernmantle lay rappeling rope is available in very small diameter (mainly a carry aid vice a working rope; it can be quite beautiful in the Turk's Head. Talk to REI. John I used to be an Owl C-40-05

There are a couple of pointers here. First, SCOUTERS gain not only the youth, they gain the parents. Unit serving Scouters have a task to do: They have to educate about the program of their Troop. That means: - How activities work. - How community service works. - How the program works. - How advancement works. - If the parents are untrained in the outdoors, then I believe the Scouters have a secondary duty, especially if they want to recruit the parents as Scouters, to train them in outdoorsmanship! Of course, that means the unit serving Scouters (CC, SM, ASMs, key Committeefolk who work with youth) need to be trained and... - Understand the basic BSA program. - Understand where and how they've adapted the program (eg LDS units being back in time for church in the Sanctuary). OTOH, I also think Beavah has a point, and I've crossed the line like everyone here. There are a lot of times where we need the backstory. There are a lot of times where our first question back to someone should be: What did the SM (CC) say when you bought him/her a cup of coffee? That said, there are more than a few units which run left and right of the Scouting centerline? Does that mean they're bad? No. I submit, though, it means the parent needs to be trained locally in "how we implement." There may well be a lot of these problems is folks used that old tool from the WB toolbox,... (wait for it)... COMMUNICATION. My thoughts. Others may disagree. YIS

B, Restricted document, you say? Not locally, it shouldn't take a tenderfoot with a bit of internet savvy more than, oh, 3 minutes to find the online MBC database on our Council website. Sheesh...

I wrote, Advancement policy requires the SM to approve of the selection of the MBC, and to give his permission to start MB work. then eolesen wrote back to me... Are you certain about that? The signature by the SM is permission to start work, and he's to give the name of a registered MBC, but I don't know anywhere where it is stated that the SM has to approve the selection of the MBC. e, I decided to take this outo of the original thread because that Scouter has bigger fish to fry, and decisions to make, as Beavah outlined. The original thread is now a back-end problem, but it started from a front-end problem. I think our conversation is exclusively about the front end. OK, From the 2007 printing of Advancement Committee policies and procedures #33088. This is in the text box labeled Merit Badges on p 26: The steps to follow in the merit badge program are outlined in the current Boy Scout Requirements. So, the policy reference book makes direct reference to another policy book. Thank the Good Lord Requirements is online: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/32215/mb/index.html Here's what it says, verbatim: Pick a Subject. Talk to your Scoutmaster about your interests. Read the requirements of the merit badges you think might interest you. Pick one to earn. (Emphasis added)Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors. These counselors have special knowledge in their merit badge subjects and are interested in helping you. Scout Buddy System. You must have another person with you at each meeting with the merit badge counselor. This person can be another Scout, your parents or guardian, a brother or sister, a relative, or a friend. Call the Counselor. (Emphasis added)Get a signed merit badge application from your Scoutmaster. Get in touch with the merit badge counselor and tell him or her that you want to earn the merit badge. The counselor may ask to meet you to explain what is expected of you and to start helping you meet the requirements. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To me, these three references say: 1) ACP&P, as a BSA policy document, defers to BSA Requirements to be the policy document for the "eaches" of the advancement program. 2) BSA Requirements gives responsibility and policy deference to the Scoutmaster: He/she determines an appropriate MB Counselor for the Scout. Now, how he exercises authority given him in discharging that responsibility is another ball of wax. 3) The Scoutmaster, when he signs the MB Card (whatever form it takes) gives his explicit approval to the Scout to begin work on the MB. So, have I made sense? Am I stringing together these pieces of policy improperly, when I said: Advancement policy requires the SM to approve of the selection of the MBC, and to give his permission to start MB work. If so, what are your references in the process? With National getting broken and stupid in some areas (I never said I LIKED the definition of Active, I reported it as what it was), we volunteers need to understand this stuff. The youth are supposed to have fun learning. We're the ones who get to make sure they are enabled for payoff from the Game With a Purpose. I look forward to your continuing the colloquy YIS John

What a mess. 1) I do not know your position in the unit, and whether or not you are a registered Scouter. That said, the UC is a "friend" of the unit, he cannot mandate compliance with BSA policy. 2) What the UC can do is contact the District Advancement Chair and the DE. That august trio can then approach the Chartered Organization Representative. BSA operates on a licensing (charter) system, the Chartered Organization has the right to over-ride any PLC, SM, or Committee decision. That is a power to be wielded with great care!!! 3) You may need to be prepared to step up to the plate in unit leadership. Such incidents may cause people to leave units, both existing leadership and parents alike. If you stay, and the leadership goes, you may need to become part of those who want to make a difference. 4) All that said, if the Scoutmaster did not sign the merit badge form of the Scout before he started the work, if he said the MB counselors are not acceptable, he may be within his proper lane as the program officer. Advancement policy requires the SM to approve of the selection of the MBC, and to give his permission to start MB work. 5) Rejecting MB mills is usually done by the Troop simply saying "we will not attend," and just closing the door. What did the Troop expect the youth to do at this camp? Most Boy Scout camps these days are structured as MB schools from my experience. That's a lot of daylight hours to fill if the youth weren't doing MB work. 6) I would take a hard look at how this Troop does its business, how it applies the 8 methods, before I invested much more of my sons time in it.

In my Troop, if a Scout goes to a specialty camp (science, music, and equestrian come to mind), and if a staff member at that camp is registered as an MBC in the camps home council, we send a blue card with the Scout... Our Council internet MBC database only shows by District, but if a Scout asks, I will find a way!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Joni, Have you noticed most of us who are posting to this thread are in violent agreement with each other? DO NOT DELAY FURTHER. CALL YOUR COUNCIL. TALK TO YOUR SE. JUST DO IT, PLEASE!!!

First, here is what is on the BSA website: http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/about/thepack/acmas.html Every pack should have at least one assistant Cubmaster. In most packs, two or three will be helpful, allowing the Cubmaster to divide responsibilities. At least one assistant Cubmaster should be able to replace the Cubmaster's position in case of an emergency. The assistant Cubmaster is recommended by the Cubmaster, approved by the pack committee and chartered organization, and registered as an adult leader of the BSA. Qualifications: Is at least 18 years old, subscribes to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and agrees to abide by the Scout Oath or Promise and the Scout Law. Possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. Responsibilities: An assistant Cubmaster's responsibilities (as designated by the Cubmaster) are to Help the Cubmaster as needed. Be ready to fill in for the Cubmaster, if necessary. Complete Cubmaster Fast Start Training and position-specific Basic Leader Training. Attend monthly roundtables. Participate in pack meetings. Supervise den chiefs and see that they are trained. Conduct the monthly den chief planning meeting for all den leaders, assistant den leaders, and den chiefs to plan and coordinate weekly den meetings and pack meeting participation. Work with neighborhood troops that supply den chiefs and into which Webelos Scouts may graduate. Help inform pack leaders of training opportunities and arrange for them to attend training sessions. Work with the pack committee to develop and promote an ongoing plan for recruiting new boys. Work with the Cubmaster and pack committee on pack reregistration. Help with pack activities, such as dinners, derbies, bike safety workshops, service projects, etc. Work with the pack committee on outings to see that the pack and dens qualify for the National Summertime Pack Award. Participate in the annual pack program planning conference and pack leaders' meetings. Promote the religious emblems program. Support the policies of the BSA. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PARSING TIME!!!!!!!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Let's go through that, and we'll see that I wasn't so hot an ACM: Help the Cubmaster as needed. Be ready to fill in for the Cubmaster, if necessary. This was perhaps my most important task. I'd help CM prepare the awards for presentation after they came in from the Scout Shop. You haven't seen disappointment until you've goofed on a 9 year old not getting the Arrow Point he deserves! Complete Cubmaster Fast Start Training and position-specific Basic Leader Training. Attend monthly roundtables. Yes, this was part of the job, in part because RT is a GREAT place to meet and learn in my District! My Cub training is actually before the current NLE generation; it's on the to-do list to update. Participate in pack meetings. Everything from set up to cleanup! Supervise den chiefs and see that they are trained. BTW, this doesn't mean... be the Trainer of Den Chiefs. It's help them find the training. Frankly, we didn't do that good a job of finding Den Chiefs for our Dens. If I were to go back into a Pack, this would be perhaps THE priority the rest of the month! Conduct the monthly den chief planning meeting for all den leaders, assistant den leaders, and den chiefs to plan and coordinate weekly den meetings and pack meeting participation. The Good Idea Fairy has obviously invaded Cub Scouting. When I was a youth member, the Den Mother (yes, I'm THAT old) and her Den Chief met together at a mutually agreeable time and place. Frankly, I think a DL and his/her DC should not need a lot of adult supervision. Besides, in the units I've seen, most DLs make Pack Committee if for no other reason than to visit with the Advancement Coordinator! Work with neighborhood troops that supply den chiefs and into which Webelos Scouts may graduate. A lot of this actually falls on the Webelos II DL. That said, I think the ACM should coordinate with area Troops and get support needs on the table. OTOH, it is a symbiotic relationship: A good Troop details an ASM to reach back into area Packs and see how the Troop can help. It can be a win/win! Help inform pack leaders of training opportunities and arrange for them to attend training sessions. In retrospect, this is too easy. Our Council calendar is usually pretty darn good about listing training. Work with the pack committee to develop and promote an ongoing plan for recruiting new boys. Frankly, we relied on the annual School Night for Activities, and put leaders and Cubs, in Class A AND Class B uniforms (some stood the desk, some played games!) where they were visible to 1st-4th graders. Work with the Cubmaster and pack committee on pack reregistration. Baloney. Too many cooks spoil the soup. One person... whoever works Packmaster, should be the point person on reahcarter! Help with pack activities, such as dinners, derbies, bike safety workshops, service projects, etc. Comes right along with Pack meetings. The ACM is a pair of hands and legs to help get things done! Work with the pack committee on outings to see that the pack and dens qualify for the National Summertime Pack Award. No, work with the CM. Program is program. Now, the family picnic that goes with the summer swim... yeah, that belongs to the Committee. Participate in the annual pack program planning conference and pack leaders' meetings. AKA the August swim night. The kids play in the water, the leaders work the calendar. One of the nice things of Cubbing is between the elaborate pre-packaging of the National Program and KISMIF, it really does almost present itself! Promote the religious emblems program. Our District has some great resources, it was below the line for us, but probably shouldn't be! Support the policies of the BSA. OK. Got it. Follow the rules. Next!

Joni, What so many others above have said. Call the Council. Ask for the SE. If you feel you must, after introducing yourself, ask him to conference in your DE. If your CC or SM will not, then you lay the allegations on the table before the sun sets on another day. Lisa's words are smack on. Beavah's words are smack on, as are eolesen's and OGE's. Make the report, the SE will take it from there. I reiterate: Make the call before the sun sets on another day!