John-in-KC

As has been mentioned, the requirement had a lifespan for Scouts in progress to get to First Class. That lifespan is dead. I agree the requirement is poorly worded, I'd far rather see "Bring a non-Scouting friend to your Troop Meeting. Introduce him to your Senior Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster. Tell him about the fun you have being a Boy Scout." OTOH, I'm not on the National Advancement Committee, so I'll let my Council President do my voting for me.

acco, There's a difference between doing the job and doing it well, and "meeting Quality Metrics." - Quality Unit (OK, centennial quality award). - Quality District (I've heard volunteers being browbeaten about that). - Quality Lodge (OA) - Quality Council Do not tell me BSA doesn't have "buzzword bingo" in play on the topic of Quality. Someone bought into ISO2000/Malcolm Baldridge, rather than buying into Tom Peters. In one of my secondary Scouting lives, I'm an AA and the recharter guy for our Crew. In April or so, since I'm an RT staff, I got to tell our DC we'd made the decision to close the Crew at the end of the program year. It was built around two HS classes in particular, one of them was graduating and the other was going to be seniors. THREE DAYS LATER our Advisor got a frantic call from two ADCs: One whose folio was Venturing, and one who had the area folio. The message received was "You cannot close down, we cannot make Quality District if you close down." Forgive me, but how is it unit serving Scouters responsibility for echelons above us to make THEIR quality targets? Please inform me, I really want to understand this one.

LH, 80% or so is a combination of observation and discussion with others. 10% is from the program literature. 10% is from a great book, perhaps out-of-print, by the late LTG Arthur Collins, called Commonsense Training. It had just been published in the late 70s when I was new in the Army, and when we were truly at our post Viet Nam nadir. Some of the things I should have learned from mentorship on the ground, sadly did come from that particular tome.

In some ways, I almost want to add a day to the sylabbus. I agree with Lisa about the Cub "cutesy". I took my academics in 2005. We still had the 45 minute cutesy Cub Scouting. It was wrong, on multiple levels. That said, the quicky elevation to Venturing at the 2d weekend campfire is equally wrong. There are issues of ages and stages which are entirely appropriate for WB, which require some curriculum time. I'm not sure we'll see a return to the old days; I have a hard time relating any pioneering above the basic camp gadget level with the Leave No Trace ethic. Pioneering was a great tool when 2-6" diameter saplings could be cut from a forest with impunity; these days I see the logs for pioneering at our Scout camp carefully racked and stored between sessions, and I see them being inspected for termite damage before the season begins. I have to wonder how much longer pioneering as boy scouting knows it will be in the program. It saddens me when people say "scrap 21st Century." The message received continues to be "your beads and necker aren't worth what mine are." Granted, we've seen the reverse, particularly in how some late arrivers at staff for 21C have been treated in being asked to retake the course. Wood Badge, like any training involving people... what you get out of it usually is greater than what you invest into it. Enough said. John I used to be an Owl C-40-05

A unit leader signs the MB application twice: - On the face of the application, where the Scout lists his name and address, the Scoutmaster ("Unit Leader") signs off after stating "and is qualified to begin working for merit badge noted on the reverse side." That's the QC point where the Scoutmaster ASSIGNS an MB Counselor to the Scout. - On the reverse side, middle portion, the Unit Leader signs afterward receiving the app back into the unit for processing to an Advancement Report and ScoutNet. The Scout has earned the merit badge, but until the Advancement Report is turned in, the Local Council has no notice that Johnny did Swimming. The loop must be closed, and that is an adult in nature responsibility.

No, GW, Eagle Boards of Review go by the data on the Eagle Application. The Eagle Application is SIGNED OFF by the Council before it's released for an EBOR. The Scout is NOT required to show blue cards, white cards, or the little MB cards that he got with his MB. He's required to list his 21 MBs, required and option, on the Application.

OK, I'll bite. I'm RT staff right now (which is a Commissioner's Service position), and have told my DC I would like to train as a UC this time next year (EagleSon will be in college, which will be a good way to fill the time gap). I've been a MC, CC, and CR during EagleSon's BoyScouting/Venturing time. Things I've seen from sister units, as well as my own... 1) Does the Committee meet in a businesslike manner, get tasks from the SM/SPL, and get things done, or is it a "parents info" session? 2) Do BORs help the Scout look into "who he is," and help him think about "who he wants to be," or are they a re-test? 3) At a PLC, is the SPL the chair, or are adults talking more than kids? Is there more "note taking" when adults are talking, or is it ideas and thoughts and "ponderers?" 4) What's happening at the Troop Trailer? I expect to see the Troop QM(s) and the patrol qm's keeping the gear neat, servicable, and accessible. If I see lots of adults, or I see a trailer where the equipment is unloved, there's something deeper to look at! 5) What does the Troop in general and the Patrols in particular look like in camp? Ragamuffin gear, open can beenie-weenies, litter, all speak volumes to the strength or weakness of the outdoor program. 6) What are the Patrols, and the Troop as a whole, doing in camp? There's a difference between constructive activity and graba@@. 7) Who is running the Troop meeting? 8) What does a SM Conference sound like? Does that make sense LH? PS: Don't get me started on the BSA "Quality" metrics. IMNSHO, they are a checklist, not something with real thought behind them.

Berets...the most impractical headgear ever invented. Yes, I understand the Airborne (through the world), the Rangers, and the Green Berets wear them. They're also some of the most very elite of all our Armed Forces, including Gunny's Marines. For Scouts, I have a simple slogan: DING DONG THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD...

Why is everyone pole vaulting over the mouse turd? I've seen the prices to get leadership psych training from any number of seminars. You can pay up to two thousand bucks. If there's a Council which is (as of fall 07) charging 300 for WB as a participant, I've not heard of it. I also agree that students should not underwrite the life support of staff ... WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE COOKS. They work hard enough that their fees should be underwritten in full! John I used to be an Owl C-40-05

I wear my Eagle Scout Dad pin on my Wood Badge name leather.

meameng, Sergeants Major are the most senior non-commissioned officers in the Army and Marines. The Navy calls them "Master Chief Petty Officers" and the Air Force calls them "Chief Master Sergeants". They are the keeper of the collective wisdom for our Services; they are the ones who develop our Private Soldiers, Sergeants and Petty Officers. A good officer learns, before he gets his butter bars, that you always listen to a Sergeant Major. Command Sergeants Major are the 2d most experienced person in most units, next only to the Commanding Officer. When the installation/Garrison command sergeant major decides you are due a butt chewing, HFE is right... principal's office x 10. It's usually liberally laced with cusswords and is ALWAYS delivered with the recipient at a modified position of attention! EDIT: In the Army, do not make the mistake of calling a Sergeant "Sir." It may be the last mistake you ever make ... (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Ed, As I recall, ACP&P #33088 mandates Council or District approval before a Scout can begin the project phase of his ELSP. The Council Advancement Committee makes the decision on whether they will hold approval meetings, or will delegate to the Districts. It's the "DO NOT GO FORWARD" point in the project cycle. My DAC has disallowed ELSPs which were completed without District approval, and has been upheld at National on appeal.

Congratulations to your son. May you enjoy the opportunities to serve youth, for you. If you have a special skill (any number of trades or crafts), make sure to touch base with the Scout Reservation Ranger in advance of your Ordeal weekend. You may well get a very rewarding task which will directly benefit the Scout Camp!!! As an example: Two years ago our Lodge had two guys who owned their own backhoes. One of our Reservation sewer lines needed serious refurb. Guess what their Ordeal was!! Yep, 200 meters of exposing the sewer line.

Welcome to our Forums and campfire! OGO told you right, as far as your son: One year clock on taking the Ordeal. There IIRC are a limited number of exceptions, mainly involving if the Scout was injured/ill beyond the ability to undertake the Ordeal or his parents were relocated outside the US where BSA (and thus the Order) have no presence whatsoever. Scoutldr told you right as far as you go: Adults are nominated by their Troops not as an honor, but rather for their potential to contribute and support the OA and Scout camping program. The SE or his designated representative (professional staff adviser to the Lodge) is the ultimate approving authority. Again, though, a 1 year clock, save significant extenuating circumstances.

The old Junior Leader Training materials had very good job descriptions of what was expected for a position of responsibility. The paperwork, though, is just a starting point. A POR begins with the SCOUTMASTER, as the PROGRAM officer. He is the one who sets standards and expectations. He should do this through his SPLs (over time) and PLC. If the bar is high, the quality of what the individual Scouts do will be fairly high. If the bar is low, then the quality will be low. From my experience, the Scout seeking a POR has to "buy-in" to what he's going to do. Further, his parents have to buy-in to what the POR is. If the parent isn't going to support the kid, or worse, is in active opposition to the kid (yes, I've seen it happen), the Scout is almost set up for failure!! When a Scout gets a POR, we have to remember that most will probably be high-direction, low support (lots of telling him what to do), and will move to high direction, high support (still lots of telling him what to do, but more encouragement and praise). The SM, ASM, and Committee folk overseeing particular tasks (equipment coordinator, advancement coordinator) have to understand and buy into this. Understand me clearly: If a kid doesn't perform, we have to do some serious evaluation, both of him and of us. If we are not clear in expectations, if we are not clear in providing him the training he needs to do the job... be that training youth led or adult led, woe betide us Scouters, we have let the Scout down. I've said it before here, I say it again: Removing a Scout from his POR and invalidating the time served is the program measure of last resort. If we're using the tool given us in the 2007 ACP&P #33088 more than 2% of the time, we as Scouters are wrong. By and large, kids want to succeed. Kids want to impress their peers and betters. So, if a Scout is an open question mark for the quality of service rendered at his rank advancement BOR, then it's time for the CC and the SM to re-visit how PORs are implemented in a Troop; something is not right in Scout-town! YIS

Eagle309, Congratulations that the first Scout is ready to do his Eagle Project! May I suggest: Before you send him to RT or District Committee or wherever the Advancement Folks sign off on Eagle Projects... BUY YOUR DISTRICT ADVANCEMENT CHAIRMAN A CUP OF COFFEE. Make sure that the project proposed meets how your District interprets advancement policy. In my District, cutting NEW trail is OK, rehabbing old trail is "a unit service project, not an ELSP." A little failure can be good, a great big "train wreck" failure, when the Scout is working well to goal, is not a good thing.

Welcome to the Forums! Does your Council Order of the Arrow Lodge have a Dance Team? They can be absolutely superb.

Beavah gave you the mechanics. NOW, here's the challenge: Do you want males only, females only, or a co-ed crew? Do you have an idea of the interest set for the youth? ARE YOU WILLING TO GO ALONG IF THEIR DIRECTION IS DIFFERENT THAN YOURS? We're talking about teens who will soon be young adults. Aside from my Scouting work, I'm VP of our HS band boosters. I thought I was high-speed and low-drag in HS all those years ago. I know kids who will graduate from HS with enough credit to be sophomores at college. EagleSon loves an array of band settings, but isn't much into hard competition. One young lady in his class dropped into a compact little ball of tears this past weekend because she didn't earn first chair all-district French Horn. You have to take their interests into account. Venturing has a tool to help developing crew leaders do just that; it's called the interest inventory. Have fun!!

As Mr Oleson said, the paperwork is not much more than what you needed to do the TP, you just, as Gunny said, need to have it with you. Some of the historic areas on military bases are near where the senior officers and most senior non-coms live. If there was a time to make sure your Scouts are on best behavior, this is it. Soldier Scoutmasters do not like hearing from the chain of command about some guest ill-mannered Scout unit... at the Position of Parade Rest in front of the Garrison Sergeant Major. Yes, it happens. If you talk to the Public Affairs folk about helping out with a Retreat Ceremony, make sure your kids are uniformly in uniform. I do not care that most installations use the "Post detail brigade" to pull retreat detail, and that many of the rest have all the MP/AP/SP show up at the Flagpole at 1650. That Color means something to us; we see our brothers in harms way when we look at it. I have known more than one old soldier to have a tear in his eye just standing weekday retreat... not even a big ceremony.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Ga Hill Billy, One way or another, Your son will do a new youth member app. You will do a new Scouter app. You can expect to pay Council $1 per each of you to have them go in and keystroke your membership from Troop 123 to Troop 456. You can expect to pay the "rest of the year" share of your new Troops dues. Whenever recharter comes, then you do it all again. BTW, for the simple reason of keeping continuity in your boy's life, I advocate finding that new Troop as something of a priority Have fun. He'll be a HS senior before you know it!! (Eamonn and I can both tell you THAT!).

I am most emphatically not an attorney. I've been through civil litigation which involved high energy and emotion, though. I can plainly see the investment in emotion and frustration in your post. Right now, the best two things I can offer are: - Make sure your attorneys are the very best litigators available in your area. My brother, who is an attorney, had me use this approach: Go to the nearest significant law library. Find out who is teaching continuing legal education (in your case) in civil litigation. He or she, or their firm, are the folks you want helping you out. - Lay it all out to your attorneys. I cannot even tell you if you have standing to start an action from our distance. You need to be sure you are not "feeding the meter" on a cause that is, frankly, hopeless. Trust me: BSA and its local Councils have good attorneys. Lots of Scouters are attorneys, and they do lots of work for local councils. Now, to be blunt: When you decided on legal action, you chose a hostile trail. The relationship between you and others is now almost forever changed, probably to never change back. Folks who may have smiled and shared a meal with you just two years ago now will be told not to talk to you unless you're in a conference with both parties attorneys at hand. I endorse what Beavah said in his post above. I wish you well, but right now, you don't need an internet social network covering Scouting, you need hired protection.

Ga Hill Billy, ScoutNet is a database developed and managed by the National Council. At this point, most local councils are operating in it. It is how BSA does recharter and internet advancement. It is the "database of record" as far as BSA and your Council is concerned. ScoutNet receives input from one of two ways these days: - Someone delivers a hard copy (paper and/or floppy) Advancement Report to your Council Scout Office. - Using BSA Internet Advancement, your unit uploads info to the database. IIRC, the data is pended for a hardcopy signature followup, then it populates into the database. Either way, the unit reports to Council that young Jimmy Smith has moved forward in Scouting. ScoutNet covers completed Ranks and Merit Badges within the Boy Scout youth advancement system. It also covers OA info and selected other awards, I will let those who work beyond basic advancement cover that. The unit OTOH and whatever recordkeeping method it uses covers requirements for rank and partial MBs. Yours and your sons BSA membership cards have a barcode and a member number on them; that is one of two ways they actually find you in the system. (Clerical staff can search on your last name too, but there are a lot of Smiths and Jones in BSA). To answer two of your last questions, here is the info from BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, Stock 33088 (2007 printing). (p26)Record Keeping Each troop is responsible for keeping its own records and reporting advancement to the local council service scenter. This is done on an advancement report form. One copy is kept by the troop and two are sent to the council with an order for badges and awards. (snip). A troop/team record beook, to be maintained by the troop scribe, is available. (p44) Extended Absence from Scouting Many times Scouts become active again after fropping from other units because of other interests, moving within the community, or relocating to another part of the country. Youth who were members of a "dropped" unit also may become active again. A proper term for such a Scout is "separated-reregistered." When this happens, the tenure for a Scouts rank is often questioned. Upon reregistration, the youth should assume the last attained rank verified by documentation from the council service center. His previous verifiable service time in that rank applies toward qualification for the next rank and should commence with his reregistration and with guidelines set down by his new unit leader. I hope all that helps.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Out here in Flyover Country, Fort Leavenworth KS is a historic post. It's among the oldest (1827) active and continuously operated intallations west of the Mississippi. It has a six mile trail within the historic area of the post, (I grade it easy) and a 13 mile trail into the Missouri River bluffs (I grade it not as easy). Whiteman Air Force Base, home of the 509th Bomb Wing and the B-2 Spirit, is just east of Kansas City near Warrensburg, MO. Getting onto a military post these days requires some thought and planning. I strongly recommend contacting a Troop on the installation to help you with the challenges "at the front gate." Since 9-11, most posts, camps, stations, and bases have ramped up security by orders of magnitude. Expect it, be ready for it. At Fort Leavenworth: - All occupants over 16 must have valid, Government issued photo ID... drivers license, school ID badge, military ID, passport... - All ID will be scanned; data is sent to the Provost Marshal (chief of police for the installation). - All cars and trailers not registered on the installation will be throughly inspected. This means: -- All passengers dismount the vehicle. -- All doors, hoods and closed compartments are opened. Folks have been asked to remove their gear from trunks and backs of cargo carriers. -- All undercarriages get inspected with a mirror. -- Trailers should be accessible when opened. Expect a contract guard, an Army civilian employee policeman, or a MP/dog team to walk through your trailer. I've seen work contractor trailers get pulled into a parking area while the driver downloads gear. - After hours, security is still vigilant, but the number of guards on duty gets reduced. Planning your trip and working with the installation security folk will enable them to have extra staff on duty and process you quickly. The youth want to camp, not wait in the glare of Kleig lights. - Different installations have different security standards. The above describes Fort Leavenworth only. Contact the local troop on a base before going. Learn the procedures and support them. It will make the process go faster.

Mr or Ms You can make a difference, I agree with what Beavah and Eamonn said. They're both experienced Scouters who've been there, done it, and observed it. If I were the SM here, I'd definitely be having long talks with my Committee Chair, as well as the Chartered Organization Representative and my friendly Unit Commissioner. I'd be looking at what the young man did and why. I'd have to wonder if direct parental supervision might help matters. As Beavah said, beyond that depends on who you are in the Troop's business? An unregistered parent? AFAIC, no vote. A Scouter on the Committee? Bump it back to the CC, that's why he volunteers. An ASM, ditto. I'd also be taking stock of other area Troops; there might be one where this young man is a better fit. BTW, I'd make sure the family receives a complete set of records for the young man.

gwd, Thanks for sharing the ride. As much as the kids have grown, I rather suspect you have as well