John-in-KC

You have a choice: Your unit can be purely altruistic and do the service for service' sake. You can do a service fundraiser and accept the money as general funds for the unit against unit property needs. You don't need to allocate funds against "youth member accounts." Either path is acceptable on the trail. Frankly, I find this form of fundraising a bit more palatable than some I hear about "we go to the ballpark and man one of the concession stands; we get so much per hotdog and so much per beer sold." The Council has said it's OK to do this. I wouldn't fret much farther than that. If you want to fret farther, ask your COR what he/she thinks.

One of the prerogatives of being Committee Chair is you sign their adult leader apps. You also have some small degree of control over whether or not an adult is rechartered. With those, you can set and enforce standards for Scouters within your unit. I suggest, though, you work with both your COR and your SM in implementing such a course of action. Work with your COR. The Chartered Partner, as the record licensee of Scouting, can mandate training as a condition of entering BSA Scouter membership within your unit. It can mandate training as a condition of retention of BSA Scouter membership within your unit. (I'd suggest a package of YP, MBC, FS, NLE, for all, and TC Challenge or SM Specific as appropriate). You can also limit participants eligible to participate in BORs to those you deem reliable and appropriate. Keep your SM in the loop, so he knows you're trying to raise the bar within the adult world, so the program support you furnish his Scouts improves.

No, no need to be defensive, I'm just trying to process your experience, and duration of your camp. Around here Webelos Camp is 4 day/3 night, Bear Camp is 2 day/1 night. I'm also not questioning safety, but as an old (very old) WSI, I'm asking about student/teacher ratio in lessons. I was taught at 8-10 years old you'll have kids out "gathering wool" if you use a higher ratio than 4:1, actually teaching (not guards and supervisors). Finally, it's not addressed in age-appropriate activities of G2SS (and G2SS does not apply to camp operations), so I have to ask: BSA Mile Swim is a Boy Scout program device, defined in Boy Scout Requirements BSA #33215. I've not known it defined in a Cub program before. What do National Camp Standards say about offering Mile Swim to Cubs? Again, I'm asking questions because what your Council does is completely outside the box compared to what I've seen area Councils do in my neck of the woods. Thanks for replying!

ACP&P, page 27: "Service to others is important. Work involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable for an Eagle Scout service project. The service project also may not be performed for a business, or be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser." That to me says you're doing the project for a church, a school, a parks department, a hospital, and other such activities, BUT NOT FOR your Council, its properties, or your own unit. Scouting may not get the benefit of the labor. "The Scout must secure the approval of his unit leader, his unit committee..." That to me says Scouting has a share in approval level control of the project "and the benefactor of the project." It's not quite a BFO that the supported agency buys into what the young man wants to do. "The project mus also be review and approved by the district or council advancement committee or their designee to make sure that it meets the stated standards for Eagle Scout service projects before the project is started." Again, Scouting (and in this case Scouting with a capital S) has approval authority. Here's my read: The project benefits an agency outside of Scouting. BSA has control over the approval process (ACP&P). BSA will take credit for the service performed (www.goodturnforamerica.org, see BSA Pub 02-727,says: Record an Eagle Scout Project You will need to have the Eagle Scout project workbook handy. Input the data requested: The applicants full name The project completion date Number of Scouts working on the project Number of non-Scout youth working on the project Number of leaders working on the project Number of other adults working on the project Total hours worked on the project (number of people times the length of time they worked) Cost of materials required to complete the project Project category (selected from the dropdown box) Type of group benefiting from the project The specific group that benefited from the project) Now, if BSA is taking credit for the hours, the complete severance of "outside the sphere of Scouting" BW advocates is not supported/supportable. From what I see of the official materials, horse sense tells me much of what happens is Scouting program, but the most important single piece ... who gets the benefit of the work is outside.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Duplicate post, content removed...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I'm a little confused. CUB SCOUT RESIDENTIAL CAMP? MILE SWIM BSA? I know very few 8-10 year olds with the strength and stamina to swim a mile. I've also never heard of a full week program for a Cub Scout residential camp. Doesn't mean you don't do it... just I've not heard of it... Can you help out a bit? What I remember from my swimming lessons oh those years ago is student/teacher ratio. Now, I'm not talking Scout camp... I'm talking lessons Mom and Dad paid for. I don't think we had more than 4 kids to a teacher. 8-10 year olds need lots of eye contact to counterbalance short attention spans...

Eagle Presentation Kit, sufficient Eagle patches for all his uniforms (we have some kids who do camp staff and have more than 1 uniform), and Eagle Neckerchief. We also help get the State Legislature resolutions of congratulation and the Congressional resolutions of congratulation. We also provide an experienced Eagle COH parent to assist in planning the ECOH. We give the young men as much flexibility in who and how as we possibly can.

Brent, Thanks. He is good people and a great Scouter. I'm glad I drew him as TG

Well, it wasn't a deer but a turkey. Thankfully I stopped short. Lord willing, I won't have a major road-kill collision. Around Kanssa City, we're seeing the critters move back into suburbia. I've seen deer a good 10 miles inside the I-435 loop. Certainly there are plenty of bald eagles in our neck of the woods, and there are allegations about various big cats being alive and well...

It'll sure screw up the Missouri State Music Festival. Somehow, I think this is going to largely be honored in the breach.

If what you say is true, Bob, then I reasonably expect: 1) No ELSPs in your District and Council to be approved at EBOR if any serving member of the Boy Scouts of America provided support (youth or adult). The Candidate must show leadership by recruiting a volunteer work force outside of Scouting. 2) No uniform to be worn by the Eagle Candidate at any time: Marketing, District approval, execution, or wrap-up. 3) The Boy Scouts of America cannot take credit for ELSPs performed on their Good Turn For America Dot Org website. The projects are performed outside of Scouting. If the Eagle Leadership Service Project is outside the sphere of Scouting, then it's outside. It cannot have one foot in the door and one foot outside. I saw EagleSon's packet from National: They have a card in it encouraging reporting of the Good Turn service hours on the GTFA website.

Yes I did! And... Anything you can do, I can do better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stF2mXucm_w(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

B and Gern, I think B has a good point: If the high expectations include strength of program delivered, you'll find those HS kids there. That's where we come in... if the older Scouts say "we want to hike two weeks on the Appalachian", and the PLC says No or the Committee says "we cannot support it," then you deserve every kid who walks away that you get. That's all the more so if they're willing to get to a trailhead using less expensive ways of travel, and they offer up the compromises. Equally, if there's a unit with good progam but some degree of "plug and play," there will also be folks who look at it and align their participation as needed.

Why would a Scouter stay in Cubbing after their boy has moved up? Perhaps, just perhaps, because they think that is where they can make their best contributions to units in the District over time. Some folk are better suited to work with K-6 kids than they are with High School kids. That's why some go into elementary ed, and some into secondary ed. As to this situation: "Mrs. Smith, we'd love to have you continue serving Scouting and Pack 123. I'd love to recharter you for Camping Events Coordinator on our committee. Would you be willing to serve there?" If still "I want to be social...", then, with sadness "I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, but I will have to talk to our COR first. He might be a little uncomfortable with a non-associated adult around the program. May I get back to you next week?"

When you're talking about high school juniors and seniors, folks really should walk a mile in their shoes... - They're trying to help their parents save for college, so they're taking AP and dual credit courses. Those only cost about $40/credit hour. I don't know about LisaBob's college, but Mizzou, where EagleSon will go, charges $236 per credit hour. He had looked at Creighton up in Omaha... they charge $1000 a credit hour. - Their coursework (I'm talking basic classes) includes offsites. Intro to Forensics at our school requires participation in a two-day tournament. That requirement is worth a "Full Letter Grade." In other words, if you had a B, but you didn't go to tournament, you now have a C. - Their participation in interest classes includes offsites: Participation in Concert Choir (our 2d choir) requires attendance at Regional Large Group Music Festival. Kiss a Saturday goodbye. - Their coursework requires service hours, done outside the school day: Intro to environmental science includes a full day offsite at the area nature trail, doing all the mundane maintenance tasks you'd expect, since lots of Scout Troops do similar projects. - We'll not even talk about competitions and festivals for the kid who is starting to get good at what he does. I'm not talking about jobs. I'm not talking about girlfriends. I'm not talking about Prom/Homecoming/Courtwarming ... or even the parades associated with them. I'm not even talking about college sponsored events, which in some cases have scholarship dollars tied off to them. I'm talking about academic stuff, on the curriculum, and approved by the District as curricular in nature. EagleSon doesn't have TIME to have senioritis this year. He's carrying 13 semester hours dual credit load. He's a B student doing that. I know a couple of kids in the running for valedictorian who are carrying 20+ semester hours. Actually, I think it's a good thing that some of our youth are balancing their loads and being selective about what they attend. That's about the last lesson we can teach kids... how to balance competing interests. Personal to Lisa: I really amn't picking on you. I think some of your parents need to understand though, as I discovered the hard way when EagleSon got to high school, that high school today isn't what it was even 15 years ago.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

emb, And there's even Key 3 at unit level: Program Officer (Cubmaster, Scoutmaster, Varsity Coach, Advisor) Committe Chair COR (or IH/COR)

E, I can take you to two or three non-Scouting groups, where the first sentence is usually an ad hominem attack against the original poster and perhaps several of the folks who followed. We play lots nicer than 99% of the online community. The biggest thing we regulars can do is look at the original posters info in the upper left corner and try to really answer their question the first time. I'm still ashamed about what the board did to Margaret in Colorado. I have to wonder if her son is even still in BSA after that ...

SctDad, My Council camps have staff village cabins. They're rather austere. Four walls, lights, and windows. We also have senior staff cabins for the camp leadeship. They're comparable with many hunting cabins, including kitchenettes and "bath facilities." Council rents both of them out, at different rates. They're cheaper than commercial cabins, but more expensive than campsites. Since you said you were planning a family camp program, cabins might be an option for your Pack. Have fun

Congratulations to your son Kittle!!!!!

Kahits, The best Camporees I've seen, have had one or more of the following for competition: 1) Compete by Patrols, not Troops. 2) 3 age brackets for patrols: NSPs, younger division (majority 11-14), and older division (majority 15-17). 3) DISQUALIFICATION stations: Events where EVERY MEMBER of the patrol must participate, or the Patrol is disqualified from prizes. 4) Host Troop out of competition: Host Troop got something special for being the host, but their patrols were not prize-eligible.

Hi ManyHats... Sigh. Integrity challenges with the parents. Not good ... for them. Remember one of the Aims of Scouting is building Character. I think I'd have a quiet cup of coffee with your Cubmaster and Committee Chair. Make sure you're all on the same sheet of music. I pretty well believe in doing the requirements. If you've not been a Boy Scout in your youth or have a Scout now, one of the adages of advancement is "DO THE REQUIREMENT. Do not add to it, do not take from it." After consulting with your CM and CC, I'd call the question on the particular belt loops and make CamperTimmy bring the posters and do the discussion session. (I'm betting that will be a sheepish "gulp" moment fo rthe young man in question). Then, I'd have a quiet, away from the kids, heart-to-heart talk with the parents. Sadly, I don't think this is going to be especially fun...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Got a question... My TG was also the ASM for TGs. Is that common?, that the area head takes a piece of the action as well?

Consider actively reading and seeing why people actually attend Wood Badge. It's not just for the formal curriculum. Did I say that clearly THIS TIME?

Ahhh, but Bob.... The classroom period of the course brings together Scouters with an array of experience and training. The informal conversations, outside the realm of the curriculum (or, in the case of "SCOUTING JEOPARDY", within the curriculum) help students and staff find and hone best practices. The whole is often more than the sum of the defined curriculum. Frankly, as I've stated elsewhere, the leadership pysch of WB was a review of well-plowed ground. The FRIENDSHIPS and NETWORKS forged at the course were worth far more of the course cost than the basic curriculum. I used to be an Owl... C-40-05

OGE, When I was Advancement Coordinator for my Troop, Eagle Projects went on Troopmaster as events.