Stosh

One also has to consider the fact that the trailer and gear belong to the CO, not the unit. The unit buying insurance may be a duplication of insurance, check with the CO before going the insurance route. Stosh

Unless the police crash down your front door during a den meeting, throw you to the floor, cuff you and drag you off, I don't think your husband need worry about 2-deep leaders being present. Stosh

Tahawk, OMG, you are one of "them"! Instead of striving for the ideal black/white, you better start settling for middle-of-the-road mediocre before someone stereotypes you as one of "them"..... Be warned! I'm thinking that at my age maybe I might be a gesser (?) geezer? Same for my ASM who's the same age as me. Whereas I have a lot of non-scouting youth experience, so does she... GSUSA, AHG, and BSA (District Commissioner). My COR is an Eagle Scout and is probably the youngest of all my leaders at 30+ 2 of the 5 MC's are retired and one of them 40+ years as 4-H leader. And yet with this hodge-podge of old gessers, our troop is expecting to double in size next year. We are drawing now from 3 packs and the surrounding community. Kicking out old gessers? Nope, that's what makes my troop what it is. Stosh

And who suggested one shut down the troop? My one "personal experience" was not to shut down the troop, and it took 20 years to remove the inept SM, and that was about 5-6 years after I left. They now have a new SM, lot less experience, but trained and on the right page. The troop has taken on a lot more scouts and is doing just fine. Shutting down troops is never an option. All that does is make it bad for the scouts and there are a lot of things one can do short of taking it out on the boys because of a few bad apple leaders. As UC I have had troops fold under my watch, but the DE and I were able to make sure all the boys transitioned into other units with the least amount of disruption. We lost a troop, some leaders, but no boys. It was a bittersweet win. Walk in the DE's shoes? I did spend a some time as a professional scouter, so I know what those shoes are all about. Stosh

Sprout18, There is no such thing as only one way to do things in this area of Webelos/Scout transition. I took a group of Webelos I boys after Blue Gold (Feb. - a bit early for the transition). I met weekly and by the Blue Gold the following year, technically 6 months into the traditional Web I year, they all had AOL. The CC and CM were not happy. Boys loved it. The second year we just did fun things and that summer, (end of the traditional Web I year, the boys started transitioning over as they turned 10 1/2 years old. I heard all the same arguments, but the parents went along with what I was doing and ... well all of them Eagled so I guess I didn't traumatize them too much. Perdidochas is correct, AOL ceremony is a Pack event and Cross-Over is usually a troop event, but I have seen Packs to it as well. If your CC is intent on holding her son back, there's nothing wrong with that, but she doesn't speak for the others. The final decision as to when the boy starts scouting is spelled out AOL and 10 1/2 years old, or 11 years old, or last day of 5th Grade. Some of the boys even "held themselves back" so that they would get one last chance at Pinewood Derby. I didn't care, we just had them go to Scouts anyway. It's supposed to be for the boys. Stosh

Ahhhh, vee haf him hooked, now reel him in slowlyyyyyy..... Welcome! Stosh

One doesn't have to always jump to the extreme, but something should be done to insure proper training and continual vetting for these "leaders". They are doing more damage to the program than others can cover up? I have seen and participated in unit that was run like this and they have 30 scouts so they look good on paper. The problem likes in the fact that they take on 20 new boys every year and somewhere along the line, they end up a year later with 30 scouts once more. They did this constantly for the 13 years I was with the program. That's about 350 boys that were sacrificed to abusive leadership practices of adults. Is that a hanging offense? No, but it is proper to get rid of these leaders....?(which that unit finally did after about 20 years) Oh, and by the way.... when they dumped this SM they didn't take away his WB beads, or his Silver Beaver.... Hanging is a bit extreme, but removal from scouting is always a good option for leadership like this. Stosh

I have done a honors program in my troop. I went and got lanyard lacing from the trading post of a half dozen colors. Cut them into 4" lengths and starting with the "bottom" color they could work their way up the levels to the "top" color. I would larkhead tie them to the button holes on the temp pocket side. This was an adult led troop having problems with the discipline of the boys. When I saw them doing something positive, I would up the level and when they screwed around, they went a level or two down. Some of the boys thought it was a stupid idea and made no effort to get the ribbons. Others buckled down and worked at it. When perk time came around, i.e. lights out, I would call out a color. Those boys who had that color or higher would gather around the campfire with me. The first time the SM was angry because the boys were supposed to be going to bed, but I said I would personally vouch for them because I had something to talk to them about. SM left, and we all sat around the fire and finally one of them asked, what it was I wanted to talk to them about. I said I'm still thinking about it and maybe have something in about a half hour. The boys quickly figured out that extra half-hour of sitting quietly around the fire before heading to bed was really kinda nice. It took a while, but the majority of the boys eventually started working on the "program". Nothing guaranteed, nothing promised, just a few nice perks for them because I saw something nice they had done earlier. Stosh

Mattman578, One of the ways to "share the leadership" is to have the "PL" taking care of the boys in the "patrol" but then have the PL assign an (EDGE teaching) opportunity to each of the boys over the course of the meetings ("Instructor" POR). Basically what you can focus on is not functionality or even success with the project, but somewhat of an orientation to the Patrol-Method of scouting. Each boy has responsibility to the group, and stuff like that. Don't worry about having the den perform as a patrol. Heck, there are a lot of troops out there that haven't figured that out yet. Stosh

Meschen, sounds like your troop punishes and adds to the advancement requirements with the boys not having a uniform. I know that is a forbidden practice in the BSA program. Might want to revisit that. And yes, you are correct, the practice is not unusual, because those troops are not informed of BSA policy. This kind of thing happens with untrained leaders who follow troop tradition rather than BSA policy. And when you say "class A uniforms", I'm assuming you mean the BSA uniform in it's entirety? Socks, pants, belt, shirt, etc? And yes, finding a troop that does programming in accordance with BSA policy is a good idea. Stosh

It's just a matter of financial priorities. I always seem to find the money for those things I think are truly important. Not everyone does. Stosh

Who's to say that a boy can't carry awards around on a hiking stick like the troop and patrols do on their flags? Stosh

My PL's take care of signing off on their patrol member's advancement. It's their responsibility to see to it they get trained and given credit for it, both in the boy's book and with the ASM in charge of the TroopMaster records. It's all part of the "Take care of your boys" leadership process in our troop. This process is not under anyone else's "supervision". They know their responsibility and are expected to fulfill it. No adult has the responsibility of running around nagging boys to do the jobs they have taken on. The boys know that if the PL doesn't do his job, he can be replaced in a heartbeat. The PL knows it too. There have been a few times that a new PL will inform the ASM in charge of advancement that So-and-So is no longer the PL of Such-and-Such patrol and that he is. If the old PL doesn't get his 6 months in on it as a POR, it's now his problem and no one else's. If one of my boys was experiencing the problems listed by scoutmom757 and his PL wasn't in my face about it, I'd be upset with the PL. It is obvious the lack of leadership in this troop where no one is taking care of anyone other than themselves and the adults may be abusing it. If a Scout witnesses a situation that is wrong, he has the responsibility to step up and fix it. Where's the PL and SPL in this situation? Where does the boy go for help? I hope the young man learns the lesson of what a leaderless troop is and when he finds a troop that develops leadership in the boys, takes it to heart and helps boys like himself in their struggles. Stosh

I wouldn't worry about losing the boys because of the parents. After all, you never really had them in the first place. I understand the parents reaction as well. They signed up their boy, not themselves. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. Politics? Haven't any time for them. That's why my CC and committee are there to protect me. If they don't, they get to look for a new SM. I have a lot to offer and if this troop or that group doesn't want me around, fine, there's a lot of other organizations who would appreciate my help. Life is too short to spend time justifying it and putting up with other people who have too much free time to whine and complain and make no effort to help. It always surprises me when I walk away and the group that was complaining is all of a sudden "surprised" that I don't show up anymore and they are left scrambling to find someone new to complain about. What I have found out is the guys down to the community dinner for the homeless NEVER complain no matter what is being served. There... that's my vent. Stosh

My Webelos den met weekly for the whole year, but the pack only met monthly during the school year. If your pack doesn't meet during the summer they pretty much keep the dens from the awards. That's unfortunate. Stosh

Koolaidman, I thought some of the same things especially with the knots, oath, etc. but then with the socks? Since when did they put in a scout socks requirement? Scoutmom757, it looks kinds strange at first, but before you unleash mamma bear on these guys, stop and think for a moment. Your boy is going for FC, Too many troops, especially the Eagle Mill types pencil whip the boys through and they really don't get the full value of the program and probably none of the leadership/maturity/character building that should occur. On the other hand these guys sound kinda tough. I would ask myself why? Pick on the new kid? or test his metal? These guys really don't know your boy very well and having come from a different troop, maybe that troop was the pencil whipping kind and they aren't going to accept that. So your boy needs to step up his game. I don't know anything about your boy, but I do know that boys at that age are rather passive and timid and if he's going to grow out of his little boy pants he's going to need to play the game on the adult level. So here's the plan. 1) Your boy needs focus on the game. Are all my ducks in order on the requirements at hand. Do I really know my stuff or was it kinda pencil whipped. They can't ding me if I really know my stuff. 2) Your boy needs to realize the limits of the game. They can't enforce a no-white socks rule for advancement. Okay get him a pair of socks, have him make sure his uniform is all there, all in place, buttons buttoned, and they aren't going to ding me for me not paying attention to detail. 3) Practice confidence. If your son knows his stuff, looks the part, then believe in himself and don't let a bunch of old foggies blow any smoke his way. 4) Learn the phrase: "With all due respect, Mr. ________ ..." If they toss some crap his way, this is his polite response to their game plan. "With all due respect, Mr. Smith, I couldn't find my scout socks this evening. My apologies for being out of uniform. I am having this SMC to advance in rank, not pass a uniform inspection. May we please continue or is this conference over?" Be sure to thank him for his time whether it was successful or not. 5) When your son enters this room he presents himself to the ASM and stands at attention until invited to sit down. When he does sit down he sits only on the first 6" of the chair, he never sits back and/or slouches. He answers every question with as much information as he can muster requiring them to interrupt to go on to the next question. It majorly reduces the number of questions they can ask. I had an Eagle candidate do this in his EBOR and the board only asked him 4 questions. If one focuses on these sorts of actions, most adults basically don't know how to react to them. They assume the boy to not know his stuff, and is able to be intimidated and flustered, but when the boy isn't, they are off guard and will draw the situation to a close earlier than they would have had they been able to continue their game. Always remain polite! My Eagle candidate that did it for his EBOR came into the room stood at attention and saluted. The board members didn't know what to do. Finally one said "Okay, you may be seated." He then introduced himself an shook hands with every board member before sitting down. Each one had to do a scramble to get to their feet to return the handshake. The first comment made by the chair was that Scouts only salute the flag." to which the boy responded, "Not according to the Boy Scout Handbook, Mr. _____" Opened his book and show them the page where it is proper to show respect to other scouts with a salute. This kid had that group on the ropes from the beginning and they never really recovered. Four months later this boy was the Eagle Scout speaker at the Golden Eagle Banquet for the council. Maturity and confidence is not a bad thing. Stosh As SM for the boy I was able to sit in on the EBOR and even I was surprised at what this kid did. I would have been intimidated had I been on the Board! I was really, really glad I was just an observer.

In the standard boy-led troop if someone has a question, ideally they would ask another boy. Which one? Their PL of course. Boys that do that, exemplify a boy-led program. Every boy from the first day they join the troop needs an orientation that emphasizes that process and then for the rest of his career in scouting should be reinforced. The PL's are the only ones that can ask help from the adults. (SPL if there is one), but the boys are to go to the real leader in the troop. If they are always going to the SM, that should give one the answer to who really has the authority to run the show. So the little flag in the back of my mind is, why is this boy going to the SM for direction? There are a lot of SM/ASMs on this forum that spend a lot of time telling their boys, "Go ask your PL". This tells me their boys still look to the adults for direction and guidance. Why aren't the PL's available to answer their questions? Maybe because they really can't or don't have the opportunity (or real authority) to really lead. I cannot ever recall having a boy ever ask me the question, "Can I really do that?" I have heard the boys ask themselves that, but never an adult. Had your situation happened to me, yes, I would have immediately shooed the boy away back to his camp. He would not have had permission to come to the adult camp for any reason other than a safety issue. My next step would be to have the PL up and answering my questions. If his #1 job is to take care of his boys, why does he have a lone scout wandering around especially off to the adult area? Weren't the boys taught about the buddy system? Wasn't the duty roster posted and reviewed at closing flag the night before? Weren't the boys properly trained in their camp duties? A simple yes or no will answer any and all of the above questions. Excuses don't get the job done. I don't judge their answers, but over the years, it seems to be the trend that they answer them to themselves anyway. If the PL's are going to be running the show, they had better be running the show. I teach by instruction, encouragement, and feedback. If they learn from the example I set they're going to be in trouble. I do a lot of cooking and camp chores for the adults, but I wouldn't say I exemplify anything worth emulating. If I wanted my PL's to sit around and drink coffee, I would encourage them to follow my example. It's a fine line between hypocrisy and teaching leadership. If I teach by example, that means I lead. How do I get them to lead? A careful program of do as I say, not as I do needs to walk the fine line. I am there to help them, but not do it for them. This is what makes teaching leadership difficult. I am constantly working myself OUT of a job while at the same time turning responsibility over to the boys and working them INTO a job. The more functional they become the less functional I become. How does one lead by example then? Stosh

Originally posted by jblake47 View Post It would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program was to be kept secret from the parents.... When parents aren't allowed, secret is implied whether or not it is the case. Or simply assumed and we all know what that word means. So there's nothing I said about it being secret? So then it would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program where parents aren't allowed. I have pointed out where BSA says they are not allowed, i.e. no YPT, no training, no registration, etc. So those don't count. Yes, I have parents that won't be able to pass a background check and so I do keep some of them at bay, but never barred completely. Originally posted by jblake47 View Post If unavailable, it might be better served to get back on topic. Parent Patrols vs. Scout Leader patrols, aka registered, trained, YPT adult area 300' away from the boys. What is a parent patrol? The subject was an adult patrol that would participate in scout activities beside the scouts for the purpose of modeling behavior. The forum voted a unanimous No. I have no idea what a parent patrol is either, but it sure doesn't sound like Scout Leader "patrol" or adult area where adult scouters congregate. And if one were to refer back to the thread's title it says Parent Patrol, not Adult Patrol or Scouter Patrol. To me there's a difference between the three. As long as we all agree why this parent patrol is a bad idea, why has discussion gone on for 4 pages? Originally posted by jblake47 View Post "The SM is not there to guide and teach adults,..."? That's the CC and/or Parent Coordinator's job. SM is there for the boys. I don’t care who does it, parents should be trained to the program just like anyone else or they get in the way. Barry And that's what happens in my troop, so I have no idea why the comment. Stosh

It would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program was to be kept secret from the parents.... If unavailable, it might be better served to get back on topic. Parent Patrols vs. Scout Leader patrols, aka registered, trained, YPT adult area 300' away from the boys. "The SM is not there to guide and teach adults,..."? That's the CC and/or Parent Coordinator's job. SM is there for the boys. I have a CC that is 100% on the same page as me and she does a fantastic job of handing any and all questions asked by parents. Other than COR, CC and MC's, I have one ASM. That pretty much covers my parents that could pass the background checks. Those that couldn't are still invited to sit in and observe. The parents that come to my troop do so because they have heard we are boy-led, patrol-method and assume that right from the start, their boys are to be doing the leading, not them. That doesn't keep them from observing, but none of them want to work directly with the boys except my one ASM. That's fine with me, that's how it should be. Stosh

Nice story. I hope you are ready to sit up all night by the fire because the kids won't go to bed? The last time I did anything like that was when my partner in crime pulled one on the Cubbies. The boys and I were talking about the gigantic caterpillar that ate young boys instead of leaves. The boys all tried to guess the size of this caterpillar and finally found out when my partner came out from behind the tent in his black mummy bag. Took almost 20 minutes to round up all the boys in the dark.... I'll never do that again. I'm thinking a few of the boys might still be in therapy. Stosh

You're lucky, I hope your luck holds true. Really? I see you haven't been in touch with BSA's legal team, nor their Public Relationships team, recently. I'm sure if you contact them they can drag out a few examples of adults not behaving as adults that ARE registered scouters, let alone those that hang around that aren't. Okay, you got me here. Yes, I would have a problem with 100 parents showing up after a four hour drive and trying to put them into the Parent Patrol. I don't have enough ASM's to handle that many scouts and I as SM have more important things I would need to be doing with the boys than to worry about 100 parents hanging around. But until such things happen, I'm not really going to lose a lot of sleep over it. I've never experienced, nor heard of such thing ever happening anywhere. That might be just a silly straw-man argument anyway. I have no idea where you have concluded I don't like adults watching my program and judging the way I run the troop. Last night at the scout meeting where I was busy teaching the boys Green Bar Bill Patrol Leader training to my boys, I had 6 adults sitting in the back of the room. That was one parent for every boy in attendance. They sat quietly in the back, didn't disturb the boy's meeting and everything was as it should be. Outings? At summer camp last summer all parents were invited to come for the Friday night dinner, some did, some drove their boys home except for one boy who insisted that even though his parents made the trip he wanted to travel home with the other boys in the patrol. Did they pretty much waste their time and effort? Yep, but that's between the boy and his parents, wasn't my call. Shake out outing prior to summer camp, parents were invited to "stop by and check things out". It was in a state park, so they would need to pay to come and visit. No one did. The ASM couldn't spend the whole weekend, no other parent would/could, so my wife stepped in and camped with the weekend with the boys to make the 2-deep. She also ran a nature program for the boys and offered to help them with the fishing program the state park was offering. She didn't just sit around, she didn't play Scouts, didn't participate in the am/pm flags as part of the ceremony, didn't eat with the boys, and generally stayed out of the way until the boys asked for help. It might progress these kinds of discussion along if one didn't have to defend against false allegations and assumptions. Stosh

Snave001, If these parents are trained, with YPT and other training, what are they registered as? They have to hold a position. If they aren't in any function, what is their purpose? Kinda sounds a bit like a making everyone an adult version of troop Historian. A POR with nothing to do except sit around and make suggestions? The SM's gonna love that. It the "Parent Patrol" was in fact specific function ASM's, (advancement, program, etc.) I would have less problem with that than a bunch of adults just hanging around with nothing to do. Idle adults can find just as much trouble to get into as idle scouts..... Believe me, I've seen it happen many times. Stosh

Really? DenLeaderScouter has made a commitment to lead her den. Nothing more, nothing less and it is really not proper to be dumping guilt on her expecting her to step up and do the CC and CM's job. This is why we have a pack committee. It is also highly unlikely a parent of one of the boys in her patrol that will step up. They aren't going to pull their son out of a den he likes so that mom and dad can bail out another den. It is my recommendation to leave that which isn't broken alone and focus on fixing that which is. It's two entirely separate situations and are to be dealt with as such. Stosh

DenLeaderScouter, I always hate it when I'm right..... I do hope that you would consider being an assistant DL if someone else would come forward to do the heavy lifting and find a place big enough for the larger group. People like you are too valuable to be shuffled off because of some political posturing. Otherwise, keep your five and enjoy your boys which would be what I would recommend and if I had to find another DL for the other 4 boys, so be it. Having one problem is not going to be solved by adding a second one and making it twice as difficult. Hopefully your CC and CM have level heads and see the situation appropriately and you get to keep doing what you're doing. Stosh

When I took WB, the only time one had a roof over their head was when they were in the KYBO. Stosh