Gunny2862

kajits, need more info... summer camp, Philmont, backpacking? Exactly what kind of camp are you going to? We don't usually shakedown for summer camp. Backpacking may be a breakdown and repack of everyones pack "by the numbers" so that everyone has the essentials. Philmont amplifies the Backpacking breakdown.

Barry, Preach it. The Scouts can often be harder on each other than we are! True. But, they are almost always just as, if not more, fair than we are. And when they're not, is a reason why we have Adult Association.

We reimburse any parent who submits a receipt for an approved purchase. We do however ask that they have a full tank before starting the trip. It hasn't been abused yet and those whose cars/trucks are less fuel efficient or are pulling the trailer receive actual cost of fuel rather than being less compensated for using their gas. i.e. is it fair that the Suburban driver pulling the trailer AND carrying 7 boys gets the same mileage reimbursement as the driver of a Prius carrying 3-4 boys? We don't think so and thus pay actual fuel cost.

From my Point of View you have it exactly. Others will not agree. No, in my limited experience I have not yet had to remove a Scout from a POR due to failure to meet the expectations of the position. But I would if the situation warranted. But we also talk about the requirements prior to each election and get the TLT training done ASAP after the elections.

AhoyDave, you state "but there is also no formal recognition or encouragement for scouts or scouters to put out the effort to help." I need only to point to my willingness (albeit when I get some current issues with the Troop taken care of)to work with Special needs Scouts I feel capable of working with and to dawnydiesels list of courses to answer your statement. There isn't formal recognition of doing your good turn daily either but it doesn't mean it isn't important to Scouting or Scouts or Scouters. BSA is working on it. Leaders want to help boys, if we can. But if you truly feel strongly about the situation after your career(so far) in Scouting, then join in as a Commissioner and focus on Special Needs issues with your Council/ grow that into a concern for National. Don't just gripe about Leaders at the Troop level and BSA as a whole and then run off condemning those of us who are doing what we can, while you abandon the issue.

I can agree with that, especially that if a Scout chooses or is only able to advance so far that there is (and shouldn't be) any shame or dishonor in that. But there are BSA requirements, in the TLT program, for instance, one could use without placing additional requirements on the Scout and if one had poor performance coming from a particular POR holder then why not document it with an ad hoc SM conference every month the performance doesn't get better and then remove the Scout before the six month period of office holding ends if the Scout refuses to improve? It seems we have only two schools of thought going - either let it go or add requirements that National isn't going to back. Surely the middle path is better in this case?

BUT, even Lifelock is having issues. It's founder who spectacularly posts his SSN in his commercials has had his ID stolen...

Mark T the course is already available at the My Scouting portal. I took it Monday.

When you don't have to have the Troop Bugler because every one wakes up when they hear your knees cracking as you get up...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I don't know scoutldr's specific frame of reference for "out of the water" but we also suspend all water based activities - BSA lifeguard, open swims, Small boat sailing, canoeing, SCUBA, etc. when we get severe storm warnings or any lighting also. I'm surprised that getting the Scouts out of the water elicited a comment.

Not size, but weight. You should keep it light enough that almost ANY mid-size or larger truck and possibly some cars can pull it. The weight on the DOT or manufacturer's placard on the trailer sets the legal limit for the smallest vehicle you should use to pull the trailer. This is MY biggest problem with our trailer. That said, I've not seen anyone use the drop down door. The configuration of doors that will work best for you depends heavily on your loading plans. We really enjoy the passenger side front side door and the dual rear doors on ours.

I am not sure about that... what about the prospective Eagle who's best (or best attempt) falls short of 21 merit badges and a completed Eagle project? He did his best, should he get the Award?

Dawnydiesel, just for my info... What Special needs courses/areas do you have training courses available for? Of those, which are Official/National BSA syllabi? I agree with the train thyself philosophy - in terms of seeking out the training one needs i.e. the Boys want to go rock climbing - take Climb on Safely and manage the rest of the safety issues accordingly. You AGREE to take on a Special Needs Scout, talk to the parents and do a little research. And that every Scouter should get Trained - especially since BSA does make allowances for different training for different positions. But I don't agree that a parent should walk in the door and widely disapprove of Scouters who do the above - but haven't yet seen the need to learn about another parent's child's specific DSM-IV-TR diagnosis, which alone lists over 290 possible disorders(297?). Especially since the DSM in NO way covers the entire spectrum of Special needs Scouts. It doesn't even touch physical(non-psychology related) issues. And even familiarity with the DSM doesn't give me access to the inside information on their child's specific issues that would help me serve their child. Their help and school of hard knocks knowledge of their child and their communication- not complaint - might assist a Scouter in aiding their situation and encourage them to be willing to do so. I also don't think a the parent of a Special Needs Scout(or prospective Scout)should get to walk in the door and EXPECT/DEMAND that THAT Troop will be able to meet their needs. Even if it degrades the program they are trying to run for the rest of the Scouts. I may think differently if I were the only game in town but in my situation there are plenty of Troops to select from. I am actually open to Special Needs Scouting(is that a recognized term?) but the Troop I serve is currently not yet in a state to service "differently abled" folks. But the demanding voice of some posters could turn off some VOLUNTEERS who already carry heavy loads trying to service their Troops. And if posters who think those programs need to be available, choose to quit Scouting rather than build bridges then why should those of us who are still working pick up their torch? Especially as they bark at us going out the door... I point out once again that while MY child happens to be doing well and is currently off of meds.(and I understand that every condition doesn't have the possibility of resolving and that I, and my child are fortunate), I have dealt with his ADD/ADHD diagnosis and did the research to understand his condition and have regularly met with his teachers and prior Scout leaders to discuss effective ways to engage(and hold) his attention. You have to do your due diligence as a parent before you can expect volunteer leaders of an organization to take on your cause.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

BW, I concur in total with your remarks. But, my remarks about linking them are related to the context of: being able to trust that a Leader is serving his constituency is going to buy him more leeway from my supervision than one I have to watch to make sure he isn't abusing his position. If your comments are for posters prior to me then I think they aren't thinking of what Servant Leadership really is and are conflating the idea with other changes that may have occurred in the same time frame.

True AvidSM, but often it's not just about the canoe or watercraft's capabilities, but about the level of training and comfortability of each of the Scouts on the trip, not just whether the SM is certified at whatever level unless he's going to ride in every boat on the trip... This is and will remain a judgment call which will most often be based on the skill of the Scouts and their capabilities for the SM in question.

Kudu, without regard to what BSA says about it. Servant Leadership is often more related to the motivation of a Leader's interactions with his charges than the methods he uses to lead them. It's much more esoteric than the way in which you appear to have been exposed to it. As an example, I would say that a PL who took his Scouts in the woods to show he could do it, to have some aspect of praise that would reflect on him and his skills was not practicing Servant Leadership because although his accomplishments during the trek may BE praiseworthy, he's doing it for his own gain. A PL who wanted to lead his Patrol into the woods; so the Scouts could, be in the woods, have fun, learn skills, etc. would be the one who would appear to be practicing Servant Leadership. In truth, the same activities could have taken place, with similar results on both of the example campouts above. But in one case the trip is about the Leader and in the other it's about the led. I'm doing a poor job because of the philosophical implications of the style, not method, of leadership in question. Read the texts suggested above, especially Greenleafs. Last thing, a Troop or Patrols led by Servant Leaders (who understood the concept) would have greatly enhanced opportunities to be further from me,(be it 10, 100, or a 1000 yards away), IF I were their Scoutmaster. YIS (This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Ahoydave, at the risk of repeating myself and others...not every troop is a fit for every Scout. Go forth and find the right Troop. You are castigating BSA and many Troops that might be open to the ideas you espouse:( , instead of helping by opening doors in places that might be willing to open them. If your current Troop isn't willing to work in this area (for whatever reason, ideologically or otherwise) shop around until you find one that is. Start a Troop. But don't just quit and blame other hardworking volunteers, who may just be doing all they can.

Easy, it's a way to put yet another requirement on adult leaders who are overwhelmingly under-trained already. For those of us who aren't professional(paid) outdoor guides these kind of requirements make us second guess volunteering. Especially when it soaks up an additional week of weeknights or successive weekends to complete, and ten ask for an annual recert.. I'm unable to find ANY WFA courses without traveling >500 miles. I bet I'd have to go to TN, or CO to get to the suggested "Swiftwater" course. Especially IF, the water wasn't supposed to be especially swift, as hasn't been stated yet. It's one thing to plan a Swift water event, it's another to have an accident on what would otherwise be considered a "normal" stream.

NJ_Bald Eagle, As one poster above suggested use the POR cards in the TLT Troop Leadership Training) syllabus(probably available at your Scout Shop) for defensible requirements. Thanks John...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

OGE nailed it, again. "The key is finding the right troop." There are many Troops in our town, at this time, ours is just trying to get on track. Understaffed by parents, boys not knowing what youth led looks like - but heading the right way now. The added complexity of "some"(more severe cases) special needs youth could easily overwhelm our efforts to re-work this Troop. When we get going, on the other hand, the Scouts I have now seem to be very capable of understanding that others may not relate to the world or be able to do all of the activities we try to do in the same ways. We might grow into a Troop that would be great for Special needs Scouts - we just aren't there yet. Also it might be considered a little much, that the Scoutmaster in addition to their 40/40+ hour paying job(and possibly it's continuing educational requirements), + getting "Trained", + supplemental training, + ongoing training issues that raise the bar(although it may be a good thing) i.e. WFA, a suggestion today that BSA lifeguard isn't enough we need BSA Swiftwater now..., plus maintaining any/all certifications... is being asked to essential understand and effectively respond to a variety of (often)psychologically based issues where a basic B.S. degree majoring in Psychology isn't enough information to properly deal with these Scouts. If one isn't a Psychology professional, specializing in childhood disorders one may tend to be reliant on the parent for their education to work with someone's child. Could it be that some parents expect others to understand their child's issues at a level that is equal to or even beyond their own "school of hard knocks" understanding the parent themselves has because they have daily dealt with their child over a long period of exposure? Please, Take the time to talk it over early, communicate successes and shortcomings, help the Troop you have joined as a whole understand your situation... while in the situation; carping/complaining afterwards isn't communicating. Scoutmaster and Parent of a fairly mildly ADD/ADHD youth.(Also currently successfully off meds. Yea!) Who is currently PL and acting QM while the QM is traveling overseas.

True, all of the above. But here's part of the rub. Often in the adult world we expect a new hire to walk in the door and be productive immediately. Occasionally in certain positions we have 30, 60, 90 day "orientation" periods where we "train" the new hire or "expose them to the working environment". I even had a position once where I was briefed that I would not be assigned to a team until I had been indoctrinated for a six month period - I was running a team in that organization in just under sixty days but that's just an aside. We are taking youth who may have never been responsible to anyone (including their parents) to do anything and asking them to work in what may be fairly simple to very complex positions(depending on your troops size, history and expectations) and be effective. For me, where my troop is now, with the (lack of) examples these youth have seen, I just expect growth in the position. I don't think a Scout should leave a position with the same or fewer skills then they came into the position with. I don't yet think my Scouts know what functioning youth leadership looks like yet; although the SPL was magnificent at our most recent Troop meeting - much more of that and I'm going to have to raise the bar on the next guy who had the opportunity to see his example. Big keys definitely include TLT and ongoing communication, and getting the parents to help the Troop but stay out of the boys way. As to criteria standards for POR's: Only if they are widely publicized, clear, metric based, and KNOWN to the SCOUT PRIOR to his election to the position. They also shouldn't be changed mid-term for the Scout currently in a POR. And of course once you start using them you MUST enforce them or you are just creating another way to weaken the program. It's fairly easy to create a new initiative - it is usually very hard to make it work. One bite at a time....

I think that there isn't a one size fits all answer here. But it does need to be addressed. For some Scouts a subtle word will bring out plenty of embarrassment about how stupid they were. For some Scouts the melon exhibition - make sure you include one in a helmet for our soon-to-be-cyclists, at $4-5.00 a gallon we'll be seeing more Scouts on bikes, Scooters and Motorcycles soon- will be enough. As a former -I didn't own a car for two years- cyclist, the idea that they need to protect themselves on a bike is CRUCIAL. I've been hit by three cars, two whose drivers were so focused on their own agenda that they didn't even look and one jerk who ran me off the road on purpose. I've trashed four helmets - two from accidents and two from age/deterioration. And it doesn't take 30 miles per hour to kill. It only takes 8 lbs. of torsional pressure at the correct angle on the neck to break it. When you have a car/ body interaction you get a whole lot of mass acting on very little mass which leads to a lot of energy transfer. For some Scouts the only way they'll stop is with the full court press of BobWhites solution and the melon exhibit and the post meeting parental lecture.(Although I personally believe in keeping CoH's as positive events and would rather call a special all-parents/all Scouts meeting) People get all up in arms about gun control - when gun safety is what we should look at, but even those numbers pale(greatly)in comparison to traffic deaths. This IS a serious issue. I know that as a parent if the Scouting leadership knew this was going on and failed to address it - I would be a VERY grumpy character after the Policeman, Patrolman, whatever showed up later on my doorstep to awake me from my ignorance. As for it being a non-Scouting issue. I think that there is no such thing for a Scout. However, even if you do, the fact that they were on their way home from a PLC meeting would still keep it in the realm of Scouting. Lisabob, I'm glad small bob made it home okay. Wish I could have eavesdropped on your discussion though...everyone can use a few pointers now and then.

Like most of you, I think, I usually use vacation time to go to summer camp. I really enjoy turning off the phone and knowing that anyone off-site has to go thru camp bureaucracy to reach me. However, I also accrue unreasonable amounts of compensation time(during which it is understood that we will remain "somewhat available") during different years - occasionally enough that if I were to use the comp time instead of vacation time, I would need to be able to "check in" and see that things weren't falling apart at the office. So I can see times when I wouldn't want it (the Wi-fi) and other times when it might help me to be available to be there.

Trapper259, GW is right, in one sense it is about efficiency. One trailer for the Troop rather than dedicating a smaller trailer for each patrol - and then having to have two prime movers to drag them, and then needing multiple smaller cars to lift the Scouts. Instead, we as a smaller Troop often use a Suburban to pull the trailer and half of our lift for the Scouts. If someone with a normal minivan comes along we caravan the two vehicles and the trailer. Honestly, I have a love/hate relationship with our trailer. I truly hate the logistics of moving it. I hate when the Scouts feel dependent on having it. I love the advertising, I love the way we are never more than the trailer away from almost any supply we might "need"/want. I love the lessons we can teach the Scouts with it about organization, cleanliness, sharing, putting things back where they came from - and that the Quartermaster actually does 99% of the teaching/supervision on this stuff. We have a 6,000 lb gross trailer, two rear doors, one passenger side front door, welded "L" steel rack in the front for batteries for the interior lighting system, flammables storage, tent and groundsheet storage, toolbox, "guest" eating utensils(paper-plates etc.) Continue the rack down the drivers side the entire length, lanterns, water jugs, wood(tools) box, insert Monty Python Holy Grail music and Gregorian chant..."the adult drip coffee maker" and it's "associated carafe to hold batch one while making batch two", clean wash/dry cloths for dishes, storage for dirty dishcloths, "wet goods" - vegetable oil, syrup etc. "dry goods" sugars, flours etc., storage for patrol, troop and National ensigns, Dining fly and frame, First Aid kit always just inside to the left from the rear drivers side door at eye level. Put two tables in for group dining, if one chooses, on the passenger side and the bulk of the floor space 85% or better is still unused. Throw in Patrol cook boxes, coolers, and backpacks and you are loaded with space to spare. We occasionally leave it behind on purpose, we don't take it backpacking, we definitely take it to the beach for the annual "family" outing. I love it - I hate it. I'd sometimes like to see the days when you loaded a bunch of boys in the station wagon or even with some riding in the back of the truck with the gear but those days are gone. Some people want to act like it's use a trailer and destroy the Patrol method, don't use it and you are really Scouting. Some people are dependent on their trailers because they aren't skilled enough to go further back in the woods(and are Scouting within their limitations, much preferred to getting in trouble) or their Scouts aren't skilled or trusted enough to do so. The truth is we are all represented here and casting aspersions about using the trailers or not doesn't do anything for anyone except maybe inappropriately feeding an ego. And most often misses the truth anyway.

Several replies, multiple posts. First, cubdadinnj Realize that I'm talking about a car camping scenario here... Unless the boys never travel any distance further than they can go by foot or they contract for their carriage without any parental involvement or funding, then what is convenient for those who are providing the transport comes into play. Troop trailers are very handy to lift the troop to a central point away from the Chartered Partners premises. Especially in a situation where the hoped for parental involvement isn't as large as one might choose it to be . Just because a Troop utilizes a trailer doesn't mean they also don't place the Scouts out in Patrol campsites where the Patrol method is in force. Working with the other Patrols to manage the Trailer and it's contents also reinforces the idea that not only do you work with your patrol but you also need to co-operate with others - i.e two dutch ovens and you want to use both - you need to schedule your usage with the other patrol - they might want to make two different dutch oven recipes for the same meal too. For the trip to summer camp it's great, one tow vehicle and the trailer then only enough lift for the rest of the Scouts and your set in one trip for the week with more gear than you'd ever take anywhere else, footlockers, cots, full-sized "camping/expedition" chairs with awnings and footrests, the "soda mess" cooler, sports equipment for the campsite, extra books and batteries. For non-car camping, i.e. backpacking, overnight canoe trip(outfitter canoes) etc. you don't need/want the trailer I agree. It's also an issue when your Trailer is so large it requires a Suburban or other large gas guzzling prime mover to haul the thing. Especially if the normal driver/vehicle isn't available.