Gunny2862

More a running cadence but also a great camp yell. We're the Great Scout Troop you've heard so much about. Girl Scouts bring us cookies, whenever we go out. People say we're Scout like for the Scouting things we do. We're the Scouts from Troop(insert number). Now who in Scouts are you!(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Or by air drop - although that would be really cool.

BW, My reply was more for SA's post than for yours. I had started writing and was interrupted - I hadn't seen yours yet. I fully agree that nothing you were doing in your work example was related to Scouting - even though you are a Scouter and were utilizing some Scouting taught skills. However I DO think that the last three of the statements of mine that you are referring to DO directly relate to it being outside of the sphere of Scouting. "That the BSA should not materially benefit from the project. That an agency or person/s outside of the BSA should be the recipient of the benefit of the project. That while Scouts may assist as labor, the project cannot be a Unit activity." I didn't think I WAS reading anything into it. If so, would you kindly point out what you thought I was reading into it? Also, do you think ,given that it is outside of the sphere of Scouting, that a Uniform on the Eagle candidate is inappropriate for his meetings with any community leaders or the projects principal recipient? Probably dealt with in another thread but just interested. Thanks BobWhite!

Nick, first off no commands work if the Scouts or Troops don't know what they mean. So you've got to teach them what the commands mean after you learn them. Second, for every time you give a Drill command, example "Forward, March." there is a Preparatory command, a pause, and a command of Execution all in there. In the example given "Forward" lets them know they'll be moving and in what direction. The comma indicates a one-beat(if stationary) or one-step delay (if marching or running)(so they can figure out what their action will be on the command of Execution) and then "March" is the command that tells them to NOW do the action you were prepared for with the preparatory command. In response to your specific questions - to have them March in place, "Mark time, March." To have them stop marching "Unitsize, Halt" where unit size may be "Detail" for a flag detail, "Patrol" if marching by Patrols or "Troop" if marching as a Troop. I, to avoid confusion, might even call "Troop 412, Halt" There are lots of Commands and some of them are only usable in certain situations. Here is a resource that gives a lot of them and gives you a look at what some other cultures do also. Look first at the United States section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_commands Also, if there is a Marine recruiter out there that is available to you. They MIGHT have the time and opportunity to spend a little of it with you showing you what good commands actually sound like and how you can learn to make them sound that way. And ways to practice giving these commands so that you will be more effective when trying them on your Troop. You need to be confident(or at least able to fake confidence) in your abilities to drill or your unit will not look good trying to follow your commands. Not that other services can't do this teaching also but we tend to recommend those we are familiar with. Nick, Feel free to PM me with any follow up questions. Good luck and Carry On.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

I may be a little slow but don't all of the references given so far support the same conclusions. That an appropriate uniform for the activity being performed should be worn. That the BSA should not materially benefit from the project. That an agency or person/s outside of the BSA should be the recipient of the benefit of the project. That while Scouts may assist as labor, the project cannot be a Unit activity. Like I said, I may be a little slow, but I fail to see the problem for a 17 year old looking at this.

Nessmuk writes "Adventure and difficulty is what our boys need (and want) today!" TRUE "A Patrol does not need a trailer to properly set up a base-camp either. If you want a sound base-camp from which to scout out.. the boys only need a chuck box and maybe a tent/ax box and cooler/jug.. All delivered by pick-up truck (or air drop) - which is unloaded by the boys. They still "hike in" some basic food and all of their personal gear." I'll buy - a Troop/Patrol doesn't NEED a Trailer. OKAY, so how is the chuck box, tent/ax box and cooler/jug getting there - if not delivered for the boys by adults delivering it efficiently in a truck (or air drop)(good luck LEGALLY scheduling that air drop). But if you are so into letting the boys learn from adventure and difficulty why aren't they just carrying it in from your Troop meeting place or storage facility where you keep it when it's not being used. How about an engineering project so they can build a push cart and move that gear that YOU are having delivered by truck themselves - wouldn't that be more adventurous and inefficient? "I have a scenario I am working up where we will have the patrol pack up their base-camp gear into their boxes and deploy the gear by an advance group who caches the gear for the Patrol to find by map and clues when they hike in.." REALLY, is the same truck efficiently going to carry it nearby so it can be cached? "Not at all efficient - but very fun and developmental." I don't know you seem to keep bringing elements of efficiency into the equation. "Efficiency is for bueruocrats and parlor Scouters.." NICE characterization of SOME leaders who have to put in place the many planning elements of a successful trip and which I believe you have pointed out that you aren't above using yourself. Way to put down a whole group of Scouters who aren't in the same situation as you. Good job. "Efficiency ?? Since when does that have anything to do with development of boys into leaders? Never has - never will !! Efficiency is just another word for "easy" - easy for the grown ups - so they don't have to watch the boys inefficiently (naturally) become leaders." EFFICIENCY is almost never easy, not until it has been obtained by lots of planning and practice or just a WHOLE lot of time paring down things that didn't work. Efficiency never just "happens" and is, in fact, the mark that someone has taken a great deal of care in setting something up. AND I believe, one of the things that Capable Leaders try to use. Or should we model inefficiency in the things that we do, do for them?

As to being "hinky" on the issue - the problem, if any, from my cheap seat is if it is being used as a discriminator for advancement as it appears has been indicated. It just doesn't seem, to me, to be a SM Conference or BOR issue as has been indicated. I think it should be clear that I think it's a good idea to have the "scout essentials backpack", it's just a matter of whether it's seen as an enforceable issue and how that is being done IF it is. For kenk's Scoutmaster giving a mixed message, it may be because, like myself, he may want to encourage it but thinks enforcing it (especially as an advancement item) would be wrong. John, what do you keep in your Ruck for those occasions(if anything special), or is it just a Basic Scouting Overnight load?

ghermanno, regarding your most recent post, see my fourth line in the post above... Yes, district and council relations are problematic at times for many of us. But remember that we deal with these struggles on behalf of the boys. It's when we give up and let the system have their way with them without raising the voice of dissent that we fail them. Now that voice may be as simple as a cup of coffee with a DE or SE that let's them know we were disappointed in an outcome and would really appreciate a better plan and outcome next year. But just carping about it MAY only help us feel better about it but it generally doesn't accomplish anything. But I feel your pain, it does at times seem like anything you want from the office is "that much" more expensive than you think it should be but it is the current reality that right now, for me anyway, many things are "that much" more expensive than I think they should be. On the other hand, our BSA Council Scout Camp is a bargain at it's price, especially considering the programs offered. I didn't work the CS resident camp but our local CS Day camp went off beautifully. The Council, or the Day Camp Director, did an excellent job of planning, even for severe weather events, and it came off without a hitch. The struggles and politics of District and Council are part of the reason why I don't know if I will ever move up into the Commissioner Service but will probably always work at the Troop level with the Scouts. I may change my mind but for now the Troop is enough and occupies my time.

I agree with John about not adding to the requirements, but I also like the "go-bag" concept (including placing it in one's pack as part of a regular packing system) as I have used it in other areas of my life. I think I could see encouraging this but I'm not sure I could reconcile it being a topic at a SM Conference or a BOR. Horizon, FMI, are you having success with this or is it a struggle? Do the boys see the value of it or do they do it because you "discuss" it at SM conferences?

Sounds like good work to me. Keeps the Scout in play and hopefully he learns a little. I'm not Machiavellian enough to have thought of RememberSchiffs "24" trick in time, but I would have done it if I'd thought of it. Time will tell if the Scout does the work, has he already started/completed his time sensitive Merit badges? Ensure that the promised apology to the SM actually is performed.

Welcome! Keep training! Keep it for the boys! Remember when you read this that you may be getting a negative slant because we don't always tend to write when things are good!

I think that both ney_a_ti and John-in-KC may both have valid points here. If the OA members running the Ordeal don't take it seriously and are goofing off rather than setting examples then that is the behavior the new candidates will think is the norm when they become members. However the test IS itself a learning opportunity. It is one that can have some external portions graded by others, I refrain from giving examples. But the REAL work is internal and where the candidate learns about themselves and hopefully grade themselves fairly. Their internal reactions to the Ordeal are more for their learning than as results of a test. IMHO, as limited as my experience is here.

Welcome!

Pie!? But I don't want to be a pie, I don't like gravy!

Have you considered asking the "Artistic" Scout/Scout Parent in the Troop paint it (and any other appropriate artwork/Signage) on? We've been seeing some pretty cool artwork from our other local Troops.

Welcome! Ditto! Keep an open mind.

One positive step might be if those prospective Arrowmen who are undergoing an Ordeal had the right to deny membership(and knew it) to those other Ordeal prospects in the same Ordeal group who were clearly NOT enduring the Ordeal but instead making a mockery of it by insisting on talking and being disruptive. Make it hard to eliminate them, get an 80 vote to eliminate. But we had two doozies in the last Ordeal that I participated in. They would have garnered every down vote available except their own.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

NOT necessarily in any order other than as I thought of them... 1st, because my son joined and so I came along as a "camping parent" because they didn't have enough parental support for logistics and youth protection, quickly progressing to Assistant Scoutmaster, and, way to fast - due to the changes in the lives of other adults - as Scoutmaster. 2nd, now that I'm here, because the Scouts need an adult in order to do the things they want to do. 3rd, because the BSA training I've been exposed to tells me that the Adult Association method is an important part of the boys development as Scouts and as citizens of tomorrow. 4th, because of some of the phenomenal youth (who were Scouts) I saw before I ever got involved with Scouting - and the hope that Scouting does for my son what it did for them. 5th, because I enjoy camping and hiking and fishing, etc., and the Scouts are a pretty fair group of folks to go out in the wild with. 6th, because if I'm not doing it, who is going to? Surely someone would step up, but would they go to training, would they try to "get" the program, would they look out for the boys interests first? I'm not going to say I get all of that done all of the time, but I'm trying...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Well, OGE, on that subject, there is the issue of whom Jesus chose as his immediate stay behind leadership class... not exactly the upper 10% of their society, nor highly academically credentialed. Fishermen, a Tax Collector, a Revolutionary... one could say with the exception of Saul/Paul and Luke that the first and second Executive Christian Leadership Seminar participants were, um, not exactly upper crust. Yet they seem to have been extremely effective in promoting their teachers ideas and message. Through lots of leadership methods but all buttressed by the SL style.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

evmori, they have to do with someone having an axe to grind and choosing to hijack a thread rather than start one about what they want to talk about because they are choosing to mix together issues that don't belong together. If they think that they do, they might, spin the thread? As has been discussed at length, there are books available on the topic of Servant Leadership. One resource link that I like, even though it is Wikipedia is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_leadership And even Kudu should like this quote from that page: "In approximately 600 B.C., the Chinese sage Lao Tzu wrote The Tao Te Ching, a strategic treatise on servant leadership: FORTY-NINE The greatest leader forgets himself And attends to the development of others. Good leaders support excellent workers. Great leaders support the bottom ten percent. Great leaders know that The diamond in the rough Is always found in the rough. (Quote from The Way of Leading People: Unlocking Your Integral Leadership with the Tao Te Ching.) YiS

I agree, this is too easy to fix to have a cow about. BUT, if you need to know, it would be important to find out if someone is just paying attention to requirements or if there is a reason why they are choosing this ASM to point out the retraining requirement. It would remove suspicion from the individual in the first case and create a situation where you might be able to make an informed decision about whether or not he needs to be retained(not re-trained) in the second.

... but first you must cut down the might oak with... an herring! Good job, changing their minds about the merit badges was surely as much work as is being asked with the herring! Congratulations!

FYI, our Scout Shop doesn't require that you purchase a special order as long as you aren't ordering everything all the time and not buying much. If it doesn't fit or isn't like what it seemed like you thought it was in the catalog they just put it inventory and hope someone else decides they need it.

Kudu, emb021 clearly gets it. You apparently still don't. Servant Leadership is "again" attitude related not skill related, It is intended to be used in conjunction with other techniques, servant leadership could certainly be seen as ineffectual by someone who caught the attitude but did'nt know how to do anything. You are still trying to "condemn a hammer for not being screwdriver." YOU are the one not addressing the theme of this thread. I get your exuberance for your topic, and it sonds interesting to me, but you are conflating ideas that don't belong together because you think Servant Leadership is something that it is not. As far as Christians defending it Scripturally, well, it just so happens that the religions central figure and namesake is thought by some to have been the ideas single greatest practitioner. It would be similar to martial artists not discussing Bruce Lee if the lessons of Jeet Kun Do were being discussed. I don't think that Servant Leadership is the end all and be all of Scout Ledership because it doesn't do skills training or even managerial techniques per se, but it does give a good perspective to a Leader about why they should care about the success of their fellow Scouts. And THAT is why I like it.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Don't forget to shop the Army surplus store for campaign hats. If you aren't going to use a hat press to keep the brim flat you can often buy them with some "character" built in. Ours has new "off-brand" ones for $40, the rough ones go as low as $25. Also your Scout store should special order in any size you need if they don't have it in stock, if it is indeed made that large. You should be able to find 7 7/8ths, even if it is thru a special order.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)