Gunny2862

YES, EXACTLY! The Afican American community DID try to use the Publicly OWNED AND OPERATED bus service and were denied equal access. Thus provoking the boycott which makes it an inappropriate or unequal comparison - becuase in the case at hand the complainants are merely supposing that they would feel put upon by the attitudes and Scouting displays of the lessees having never ACTUALLY attempted to use the service. In the case at hand, BSA or the council in question does NOT own but does operate and maintain the venue in question. The venue is open to the public - but not at will, the lessees interests understandably come first as they are maintaining the property. If, as I am certain Merlin will reply - the city still owns the property and it is public property and open for use to all comers at any time. Then why did city make the lease in the first place if it wasn't in their interest to do so? If the lease is invalid - then why hasn't the lease been vacated and the city started maintaining and operating it? Until they go there and are treated unfairly this is, again, simply ridiculous. There is no legal injury here as judged by other than this case.

Bob White, HI! Hey, I made no attempt to use any material to support my input, Clearly stated it was In My Humble Opinion (IMHO), and used qualified language throughout, in addition to granting that I had not seen the specific video in question. And to this point didn't specifically bring up my qualifications as a Lifeguard and Lifeguard Instructor - which should lend some small weight to my overall opinion in this water sports related area. Also left out that I have not only viewed but participated in these things before. (To date not in a supervisory position). But fire away at the appropriateness of participating in an event, being given a set of guidelines by the event staff, i.e. not to wear those t-shirts, and violating those guidelines. Where does the Scout Law, Oath and/or Spirit support THAT? And that has been the primary focus of my comments in this thread. All else has been in support of that idea.

Back to the original thread and having looked at the thread that spawned it... What Scouter who ignores the rules(especially rules that may have a safety purpose underlying the rule) of a venue or event organizer organizer IS trustworthy?

I'll admit to not having watched the video, but IMHO unless under taken in fairly controlled conditions - an established Pool,possibly a boat ramp that has been roped off, anywhere with clear water to the bottom and NO ice cover this is a potentially highly hazardous activity to the swimmers AND the guards. Regional understandings of the concept of Polar Bear plunges may be different but the majority of those I have witnessed(not supervised by me) take place a lakes with soft bottoms - murky water, in air temps as low as 15 deg F and never higher then about 40 deg F and in at least one notable instance ice cover that was chopped through to create the "Plunge hole". A swimmer requiring assistance, or worse having gone unconscious underwater might require a line search or more just to locate them. Line searches can add a LOT of additional time to a rescue and quickly become recovery actions rather than rescues under most live conditions when they are attempted. Not to mention that if the Guards do have to enter the water they then don't get to work on warming up but must immediately transition into whatever level of support is required by the swimmer until EMT's arrive. Thus increasing their possible exposure in hypothermic conditions. Line searches done properly aren't fun in the summer camp pool during summer - I'd hate to imagine one in the conditions I described above. I restate that when Scout use another groups event or venue the should DEFINITELY follow, at the minimum, the rules set by the event organizer. I have no issue with PB Plunges as a concept, just like Rock climbing, but follow the rules of the sport/venue/event organizer at least. Scout Spirit should have kept those Scouts out of Unit T-shirts - how many violations of the Scout Law are there just from wearing them instead of following the event organizers directions? I see seven.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

An RV is LNT compliant? shaking head morosely... I've been doing this all wrong...

So, would it make the plaintiffs happier if the BSA organization who rented the park said "No non-BSA members allowed during the time of our rental period" rather than playing nice and allowing use to others during off-peak or low usage times? This is patently ridiculous. Try to be nice... If everyone has the right to use the park (at will and with a lack of possible offense from any vector then)the the City is at fault for "renting" it out to ANYONE(and if offense is the standard they should probably put up very high walls with no doors so that NO ONE can get in); OR, no one has the right to complain if someone else has rented the park - find another place to be until you rent the park or it has reverted to city use public space.

From a Life Guarding perspective, I can see where a Guard at such an event might prefer "plungers" to wear either a tight fitting top or no top at all - to avoid any possible infringement on their movement as their "supposedly - my supposition" cotton t-shirts became wet and stuck to their body. In addition to the other hazards of taking an extremely cold plunge into water, thus causing possible compounding of problems with the plunger performing self-rescue or avoiding the necessity for it altogether. Especially as some Cub Scouts start with VERY over-sized T-shirts to avoid purchasing the next size up as they grow. I would be very unhappy with any group whose leaders chose to ignore the directions of my Guards or myself at any pool I was in charge of. What I can't figure out is why/how they weren't asked to leave. BUT,... I don't think there is a "Scouting" violation here with regard to the G2SS, but I would hope that Scouts and their leaders could follow the rules set by other organizations when participating in "their" events. That would be in keeping with both Scout Spirit and promoting Scouting as a Responsible activity. IMHO.

In my experience RIT will work, (you have to let it soak longer) Haven't specifically done Switchbacks (disclaimer).

I would love to try a Down bag but economically it just isn't feasible. If I didn't like it - or it's durability, I wouldn't be able to ethically unload it and get a significant amount of the investment back. I've always had synthetic bags, they've never failed me and I haven't been the best steward of them in the past (storing them uncompressed, keeping them clean, etc.). I'm doing a better job of caring for the bags now(which would help in using a Down bag) but even the best synthetic bags ((at least the ones I was looking at, Wiggys and Snugpak - I believe Wiggys is probably the better product line, - I am currently using a Mil. Surplus ECWSS bag system that I got CHEAP!)) come in near the price of medium to lower quality Down bags - I (for me and my economic picture) can't justify the Down bag.

I concur with scotteng's assessment on this one.

Not all councils use their Rangemasters as extensively or possibly train them to the standards DeanRX gives as an example. Our Council held a Rangemaster Course for the express purpose of creating a group of BB Range qualified operators to provide service to day camps and packs. They drew on previously qualified Arrow range operators for the other portion of the day camps. We(about six of us) covered the NRA material and BSA information with a practical application over the course of one very long day with a BSA and NRA certified Instructor. As a Scoutmaster I went to be able to get some limited exposure(gotta recruit as you go ) to Cub Scouts and Webelos as well as providing service within the council. I would have been unable to do so had our Council operated the way DeanRx indicates his does. I have enough going on with the Troop.

If gambling isn't allowed; why do adults sample what the Scouts cook?

There are families whose time theory includes the idea that people will wait for them. Ours is not one of them. Our Troop starts at the start time and ends at the scheduled end time - are there still people who show up just after the opening - sure. But some of these folks WILL NOT change, the fact that it hurts the patrol isn't an incentive for the parent to leave on time. I think the idea of a year long Patrol of the Year competition is a great one! But you need to get the parent, or other driver of the Scout, an incentive also I have no idea what that might be unless you are flush with help and could afford to allow that patrols parents to not help with any outings for the year their Scout is part of the Patrol of the Year. I might have to do it the other way and levy a "Parent Help Time Tax" on the non-Patrol of the Year group. I concur with the fact that the Adults should NEVER be the cause of a delay in the start time of any activity - but I am so habitually on time that when it eventually happens I'm NOT going to feel bad about it.

Your local "Cowboy" shop hat fitter can probably take care of your problem with sizing and adjusting the crown. I can't believe you wouldn't have one of these types of outfitters nearby in Tennessee. Should be pretty easy to find. I like to wear mine with a little forward rake as opposed to level, the Boy says it looks way to geeky on me when I wear it level. I also use the chin strap behind my head, Drill instructor style. If you want to keep the Brim flat, either make or buy a brim press, I used leftover cardboard and Duct tape and made one for free. Plywood, bolts and Wingnuts make a more industrial version, used in conjunction with some steam you can flatten a pretty messed up brim if you like them flat.

Don't forget the cameo with McGyver(Richard Dean Anderson) setting up a COPE course for the summer camp experience that meets all BSA and OSHA standards using only natural materials - and no wasteful machining, that can then be taken down after camp and re-purposed in accordance with LNT principles. I propose Britney Spears for the "Helicopter Mom" Role - who not only attends summer camp and sits in on classes but also insists on sitting on the pool deck (yeah, you know where this is going... ) - to ensure her "baby" - a strapping 17 year old Eagle doesn't drown in front of the Waterfront Director and his staff of five on deck lifeguards.

I wonder if they often refer to Green Bar Bill???

Please do not ask for the ScoutDirect discount when shopping at retailers like REI. The ScoutDirect Discount is ONLY available when shopping thru ScoutDirect. REI has its own discount which is in part the "dividend" payout at the end of the year which is based on the amount you spent on the goods that you buy there. In addition to sales and closeout items. ScoutDirect information on ALPS Mountaineering products can be found at: http://www.scoutdirect.com/

Okay. Well. Wrong again . Would you believe that I had never been exposed to that provision of the flag code? Given that provision, I withdraw all of my errant comments above. And issue any necessary apologies. I had said the pledge apparently inappropriately, at numerous occasions, at the direction of my superiors - I am now aware of having had the unfortunate privilege of following an inappropriate(illegal) order. Thanks for setting me straight!

IM_Kathy, IMHO, It's not a Merit Badge because it's covered as a Basic in the T-2-1 skill area. The following merit badges are available for those who choose to move beyond the basic requirements and further explore Swimming, Sailing, Rowing and Lifesaving or to pursue the BSAL certification. But, you can't do any of those unless you can pass the swim test. It could be that knowing that swimming is challenging for some that having made the Scout jump that hurdle once it would have been seen as cruel to the Scout to force them to then jump an even more insurmountable obstacle of completing Swimming as a mandatory MB for Eagle. The basic skill had already been addressed.

Thanks GW, and I concur with your comment; however, in context, the quote above is implying that while Scouts and civilians say the pledge that Military personnel in uniform do not say the pledge. And on a military base at morning colors and evening colors that would be correct, but there are many opportunities where the pledge could be said by military personnel in uniform. Even at morning colors it could be said by military personnel but usually isn't. After all, just like at most Scout camps when one raises the flag and then they say the pledge. Not raising while pledging. Same - Same.

I can't see anything mentioned above as outdated. I am personally happy that the FCC nor Scouting require Morse code for their basic requirements - if either brought it back I guess I'd have to relearn Morse - it's great in the HF spectrum but very few people use it anymore preferring to use the more practical radio to radio or repeater systems where available. Formerly KE4HNV - my amateur license has lapsed and Scouting's occupying my time and my money. GPS units get wet and die, they fall on rocks and break. I've yet to break a compass(that is, not a compass that wasn't a dimestore job). Map and Compass skills are vital! Map and compass work are essential for any one who lives anywhere where one can get far enough away from help that traveling in a straight line in the right direction could be the difference between life an death - and if hypothermic with bad enough weather that distance can be pretty short.(although stopping and building a fire and putting up a warming tent or even lashing(hmm, at least knots but possibly lashings) a little reflecting screen or overhead cover might be a great idea - depending on the situation and distances involved) Knots help in every day life, frankly Scouting's Required knots are pretty easy, and teach more than knot tying. I don't know signaling, might like to learn, but would want to have someone else who could read it to signal to - can't require the Scouts to join me. Swimming, if the Troop does water activities, if the Scout is to be prepared for some basic life skills, I think swimming is indispensable. I've never yet met anyone who was physically able who couldn't be taught to swim. Now, even the military does wash out adults who can't swim to their specification and who can't learn in a relatively compressed timeframe(usually ten days or less, the first two of which are usually lost beating it into the prospect that they CAN'T swim. But I personally believe that anyone who WANTS to and is given a month - and competent coaching can learn to swim to better than BSA standards. Cooking and cleaning up, no safety net for dinner. They learn to cook pretty fast when you hide the emergency oatmeal and outlaw bringing individual food.

Okay, If the DAC is literally flopping the packet back at him and saying it isn't good enough then he needs to provide a list of deficiencies that the Scout can then go work on. Grrr, I'm a little disgusted(editing myself) with this individual. It isn't a guessing game, the Scout simply needs to follow the guidelines in place for an Eagle project. By not providing the information showing where the shortcomings are or showing which guidelines are in error this adult IS adding to the requirements. It may be that he see's himself as putting in roadblocks to test the Scouts Character - this IS NOT his job. Completing the task as written with Scout Spirit and Leadership in play are the Scouts job. Evaluating the work and Scout Spirit are the Scoutmasters job. But no where in the program is building in stumbling blocks part of the program. If the DAC won't provide the Scout with a list of deficiencies in the project, take that to the CC, COR, and CAC. and see what they have to say, they should (hopefully) at least back you in elevating this.Garnering support from past Eagles who have nothing to lose who found the same problem could be very helpful. By not providing this necessary feedback he IS adding to the requirements - in the very least by requiring that the Scout read his mind.

jblake47 said "Military in uniform do not say the pledge, they merely stand at attention. Yes the Code does reference this "exceptions" as exceptions done by the military that differ from the "Code" that is acceptable to civilians." What? Just because the military does a flag raising and lowering ceremony every day, and during those times anyone not guarding prisoners or engaged in an activity that would create a safety issue if the activity were stopped is supposed to stand at attention (or stop and sit in a vehicle) if on base(and salute if in uniform) does not mean that they aren't allowed to say the pledge of allegiance while in uniform. There are numerous times where saying the pledge in uniform could be entirely appropriate(but isn't required and thus not always done). To include(but by no means exhaustive): Swearing in, Promotions, Award ceremonies, Openings at Reserve Drill weekends, The Service Ball(as appropriate), Dining In, Dining Out, Change of Commands, Retirement.

Our local OA chapter sets up at a local business to collect trees on a by donation basis then grinds them and sells the mulch to the local public utility who resells it.

snoore. snnnnooooze. Snoooore. Hmmm. Brak, brak, oh.. I never said no one wore them, but that I saw so few of them that it seems to me that keeping them in stock in a Service that doesn't espouse uniqueness within it's own ranks was a highly inefficient use of the logisticians time. And that is probably a part of why they were eliminated. And thanks for mentioning that in the D.C. and Annapolis areas is where you did see them worn. Also, the majority of the Corps uniforms still emphasize the Naval traditions I still haven't seen one other than MOPP gear that didn't have a fouled anchor on it somewhere... Back to the snoooze.....