fred johnson

I like to remember that MBs are part of a larger advancement program. Everything works together to accomplish scouting's goals. That can only happen if scouts keep doing merit badges and continue to pursue advancement. Plus, I like to remember every scout is different. A shy 11 year old working on citizen of the nation will "discuss" at a different level than a 17 year old that has submitted his college applications. One might barely utter a sentence. The other could keep going on and on and on based on more years in school. #1 Key. Do not add or subtract from the requirements. Scout completes the badge when requirements are met. But ... REQUIREMENTS ARE STILL SUBJECTIVE. #2 Be supportive and compassionate. #3 "try" to find a way to give the scout a good experience. #4 Feel free to add your own unique experience or perspectives. This is valuable to the scout. #5 Use your judgement and common sense. I'm okay signing off a scout as long as I can justify that the scout met the requirements and that it has been a learning / growing experience. Unfortunately, this does mean a different level of quality and quantity of output between an 11 year old scout on his 1st badge and a 17 year old scout on his 80th badge. To be honest, I'm okay with that as long as the scout grew toward the scouting goals. Especially, if I inspired him to do more merit badges, pursue advancement and/or learn more about the subject.

I tend to be of a different view. Leadership instability. Seven scouts. Unless you have several (not one, two or three ... four or more) adults willing to be leaders who are really driven to make this work and triple the size of the pack, I'd cut your losses and get your sons into a healthy pack. Then just sit back, help if asked, but let your scouts have a healthy scout experience.

Yeah, I gotta side with the scouts on this one. Our scouts do PLENTY of service. To pay thousands and then mid-course be told there is a "day of service" is not so cool. I view this as totally different than the adult leaders that pay $800+ to volunteer for Jambo. They know it. It's part of how it works for Jamboree leaders.

ThomasJefferson ... Many others died too but you miss the driving cause. The key is that the driving cause / political motivation was antisemitism. It was systematic and used to motivate a political movement. Six million Jews died. Millions others died too. And I apologize for saying this, but they were pulled into the Holocaust thru the war and the Aryan purification. The holocaust was started by antisemitism used as a political tool. http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-215485 Plus your numbers are also debatable and use the high end for other groups. Your Romani number is high. Many other sites puts the number closer to 250,000. I found it interesting that some sites categorizes the "ethnic poles" as "Polish Catholics". But that could be essentially because Poland was/is a Catholic nation.

This is my 10th year doing scout recruitment and my 10th year getting stuck in the middle of politics. Now, BSA has a brand new, inconsistent and wimpy new policy statement guaranteed to make no one happy. I just dread recruitment this fall. Doubt we will have a back to school night table. Doubt we can do in-school flyers. I hope BSA fixes the policy statement before scouting dies.

Wow. I was amazed at the article. A well meaning group is effectively white washing history. The Holocost WAS started as and continued primarily as an anti-semitic action. It WAS the "final solution" to the European Jewish problem. Nazis then used it to include the unwanted and those who opposed them including millions of Russion POWs. It's insulting to even think of a Holocost memorial that does not include Jewish symbols. I'm proudly Catholic and have no offense to seeing those Jewish symbols used in such a setting. It's not about the government endorsing a specific religion. It's about telling the truth thru art and creating something meaningful that lasts.

I think there is value in the paper triplicate blue card. Slows things down. Gets kids off the computer. Give then a pen and a blue card. It's up to them to fill it out, keep it, get it completed and hand it to his scoutmaster. Scouting is about face-to-face relationships and learning to deal with people. I think the BC does that.

DeanRx & dadof3ealges wrote very good comments. Though I'd put it in a "Parent Guide", calling it By Laws is little harm. The key is that it's stuff that is special to the unit. Money handling. Meeting spots. Committee using Roberts Rules (if necessary). Perhaps taking the opposite is useful. Here is what I would **** NOT **** put in a Parent Guide or By Laws and actually scares me. ---- The advancement process. ---- Process and procedure flow diagrams and checklists ---- Anything beyond summary level introductions to BSA topics like advancement, ranks, uniforming, leadership, etc. Guides are useful to get parents up to speed, but the scout should use the Boy Scout Handbook and not face any contradictions created by documenting excessive processes and procedures. I think units have By Laws that often include these because until the last ten years, you could not easily find all that info online. Now you can get online copies of the GTA, G2SS and many other documents easily. You don't need to re-document them so that the scout and their families know the detail.

Also good comments.

Good comments.

I like the list. It doesn't waste scout time on topics they've seen for years in school. It fills in gaps and opens scouts to new arenas.

Ya know ... "I THINK" that some program content is more appropriate for an older age. At younger ages, wo are teaching very basics about decorum and it's harder to get scouts back in control. Songs such as "announcements" are .... IMHO ... a bit much for younger kids. I am not sure at 6 years old kids can safely distinguish between being playful with rudeness and real rudeness. Similar to the bird song. Cubs know the 1st versus, but we save the shotgun shooting the bird and it decomposing versus for boy scouts.

FULLY AGREE. Webelos should be the start of a Boy Scout program. Not the end of Cub Scouts. It should be about growing and not about shopping for a troop. One challenge is you would need to know the troops at the start, not at the end.

yep ... not everything has to count toward something. But if the scout needs hours, sounds like a great service opportunity.

Agreed about By-Laws. It's funny though about knives. We just got back from summer camp. One of our scouts was carrying a belt mounted sheathed knife. He was responsible and took good care of it. It was not huge, but it was between 4" and 5" long ... I think. I just remember looking at it thinking it was a reasonable size knife. Anyway ... our toop always had the rule no sheathed knives. But we've all heard fixed blade knives are safer than pocket knives. So, we let him keep it and wear it. He was responsible and used it responsibly. Our unit rule is knives need to be reasonable and smaller than the size of the palm of your hand. His knife pushed that size, but it was reasonable.

qwazse ... What i meant about the CO is that every non-profit that I've been part of has had By-Laws. What is the size of the board of directors? Do you follow Roberts Rules of Order? How do you bring items up for debate? How is spendign approved? How are people appointed / hired? As for unit examples such as your uniforming suggestions, on the youth level, that's a word of mouth activity. For new / potential adults, it's in a new parent guide. Similar for scout accounts. Put what ya do in a parent guide documenting what's been agreed on. Same for dues etc. I just don't think By-Laws are needed. Mainly because it indicates a unit that really doesn't talk and needs formal procedures established beyond what BSA has already established.

qwazse ... Good point. I did not know that venturing encourages By-Laws. Interesting. I'm not sure that really changes things that much as it's establishing the orientation and structure of a venturing crew. Crews can specialize significantly, scuba vs hiking vs service projects vs .... As for packs and troops, By-Laws are not for the scouts. By-Laws are for the adults and the adult leaders. I've been in units with By-Laws. The only people who read them are adults when they are arguing with each other or trying to nit pick. Scouts don't need By-Laws. They have their Boy Scout Handbook. The rest is noise unless it's written by BSA. And specifically, I would NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want adults to give feedback with the SPL or any youth in the room. Adults give feedback to the committee chair and/or scoutmaster. The SM & committee chair roles are to shield the youth and youth leaders from the whims of adults. ============== My only other comment is why would you ever cringe that adults are reading BSA published documents. Your unit By-Laws should be consistent with the BSA policies and procedures or you are doing a disservice to your youth. You want your adults to learn as much as possible.

I think it's innate. People are always looking for differences and this is a big one. I know a friend who had sensitivity because he was adopted and never knew his "real" parents. He searched for them and found them. He viewed the people who raised him as his parents too, but it was very different. One set was blood and the other was a paternal friendship. With gay parents, you ALWAYS have at least one who is not blood related and sometimes two. It is a big difference. Adoption is a wonderful gift and an incredible service. But there is still a difference. It's not about stigmatizing. There is a difference. As for religion, many religions for centuries to come will teach that it is wrong. I have many close friends who are gay and they know I am Catholic and that I cherish my faith. We work together. We help each other. We care each other. But they know not to ask me to approve their lifestyle. We co-exist. That's America.

Twocubdad had a very good point. If you need By-Laws, it's about the charter org, not the unit. The Charter Org is not a BSA structure and for all practical purposes can be a church, a school, a group of parents or a gas station. Once you get into the unit, all voting rules etc are taken care of by BSA policies and procedures and BSA job definitions of who reports to who, etc.

Agreed. It's a large target and will be until you can outlaw religions such as Mormon, Muslim and over 50% of the Christian denominations.

BY-LAWS are not needed and are dangerous. IMHO, they actually hurt because they create contradictions. It's really difficult to define unit specific "LAWS" that are new, important and consistent with currently existing BSA policies and procedures. BSA has published ALOT of detail and units and leaders are required to follow them. Keeping everyone on the same page is important. Instead of BY-LAWS, re-create it as a parent guide. Document the ... ---- annual dues, budget, fundraiser, costs ---- meeting times and dates ---- expectations for "active" and positions of responsibility ---- Where to look for more detail -------- BSA guide to advancement, GTA -------- BSA insignia guide -------- BSA guide to safe scouting, G2SS -------- BSA handbooks (scout, scoutmaster, etc)

It's not how it's taught or registered. And would fall apart over the years as it's not the official way of doing things.

Fully agree. That's how it should be. "One Unit" concept, K - 20. One committee of experienced people to help the new Cub leaders.

I think you've driven a bit too much thru the southwest listening to all those independent radio channels run by tax protesters that argue the federal income tax is illegal and FDR did not pass the constitutional amendment properly. Your reasoning is the same that football parents would use to deduct the cost of their son's football uniform and summer camp costs. You want to reach a conclusion that is a bit more aggressive than I could sign up to following.

BOOMERSCOUT - It gets ugly quick. "Most" of what you described is probably okay, but defends different specific situation than originally discussed. Fine. Nonprofits can use funds as they decide to benefit their target audience. Buying clothes for specific homeless people is a classic example. You do not need to spread funds evenly. You can have scholarships. Fine. Nonprofits can allocate funds to serve their purpose. It's the whole idea. And you are right ... it's key that ISA "credits" not be based solely on fundraiser performance. But it's a very dangerous game. The issue is when private benefit creeps in. EXAMPLE - A troop crosses that boundary with a policy of pay $100 annual dues or sell $250 in popcorn or work 10 hours selling popcorn. There the profit from the $250 in popcorn sales earned by the non-profit is being targetted directly to one individual in exchange for having earned sold that popcorn. Same with working 10 hours. The scout is avoiding paying his $100 annual dues. It's using non-profit status to benefit a private individual. We've done scout scholarships because of need, but I don't want our troop having a committee deciding who gets how much. Especially as it's mostly the parents of the kids in the troop. I also don't want a shopping list of how to earn credits or a treasurer having to keep track of it. .... $ 2 ISA credit(s) = 1 hour working on volunteer servic project .... $ 10 ISA credit(s) = 1 month as PL .... $ 15 ISA credit(s) = 1 month as ASPL or QM .... $ 20 ISA credit(s) = 1 month as SPL .... $ 1 ISA credit(s) = Attend one meeting .... $ 20 ISA credit(s) = Attend a weekend camp out .... $100 ISA credit(s) = Attend a week long summer camp It would be different if the troop said we have $1000 allocated to reduce scout costs. Let's allocate the money back out based on various criteria. It would also be different if the money is a small amount of the total raised. It's just not a simple topic and very case by case specific. ======================================= QWAZSE ... you walk a fine line still. .... #1 & #2 ... you have the person who raised the money choosing how to use it and being the first to benefit and often the only to benefit because of wear and tear. Plus, if I donate my sons shirt after four years, I don't get to write off the full price of a new shirt. You get the garage sale price / value. Anything else is fraud. .... #3 & #4 ... beyond questionable. Especially as any camp attendee can claim they are doing service or representing their troop. To do this, IRS would need to treat all youth scouting costs as tax deductible. But, they aren't. Youth may be doing service / representing their units, but they are 1st and foremost "enjoying the activity." ======================================= Everyone wants to define their own view point. That's not how it works. The IRS and the courts require you to use their terms and their interpretations. Guess who wins. It's moot though as most scouting $$$ are just too small to get attention. But just because we are too small to get corrected does not make you right. And I do fear it as our troop has $25,000 easily going thru the checking account each year. Most of it passes thru with popcorn, wreath and camping costs. But it does pass thru.