emb021

"Should a girl be able to earn Eagle Scout by participating in the Venturing program?" Sorry, but this has nothing to do with the topic we are discussion. Girls can't earn Eagle Scout. Only boys. So its a moot point. Girls in Venturing can earn all the Venturing awards, including Venturing Silver, the highest. If they join a Sea Scout Ship, they can earn all the Sea Scout awards, including Quartermaster, the highest. Earning both awards takes more work then earning Eagle. Eagle was designed for ages 11-13, while the Venturing/Sea Scout awards are designed for an older age.

"Youthscouts seeks to establish Scouting as defined by Baden-Powell." Sorry, but reviewing his website give me any no impression that 'youthscouts' is based in anyway on BP's scouting. It struck me as just another generic co-ed youth program.

"does that [Federal Charter of GSUSA] differ in any way from the type of charter Boy Scouts operates under?" Don't know. You'd have to read and compare them. Both charters give protection to the 2 orgs. The GSUSA has rights/permission to use 'scouts' and scouting for the girls program, BSA for the boys. While James West wasn't happy with the GSUSA calling themselves 'girl scouts' instead of 'girl guides' (he also viewed Camp Fire Girls as the BSA's equivalent for girls), he never went after them like he did with the various 'boy scout' groups. "So why didn't Dad get off his duff and help make a better Girl Scouting program for his daughter and other girls rather than tilt at windmills?" Gee, not much chance of making a big political statement then? I would say that based on my limited, second-hand knowledge of how the GSUSA operates, this would be a bit daunting. The GSUSA seems to have a bit of an anti-male bias, and so it would probably be very difficult to do this, even at a local level. Plus, there are some people out there that want to have a co-ed scouting program for younger kids just because its easier for the parents to have all their kids in the same program, vs different programs (GSUSA & BSA or anything else for that matter). They don't care about issues of different programs aimed at the particular needs/wants of different genders. They just want the convenience of one place to drop off their kids (kind of like daycare).

"I guess I am in an unusual council because our venturing program is thriving." Venturing is working/thriving in many councils. I personally feel that this is due to adults with a vision who (ideally) work with the youth to get Venturing up and running. And I mean beyond a crew here or there doing well, but having new crews getting up and going because of the work of others to promote and support Venturing. "Part of the problem as I see it are crews with no focus or general interest, many of them wander trying to find what to emphasize and failing to find their niche crash and burn in the first year." I would agree. You need some 'emphasise' to kind of make your crew stand out. Another thing I see with short-lived crews are the ones formed by a certain group of friends, who make no effort to ensure the crew survival after they age out/loose interest. "Our crew has an outdoor emphasis with kayaking, rafting, and canoeing added in. There is a climbing crew, cave exploring, wilderness survival, backpacking, historic trails, civil war, 3 sea scout ships, GPS crew, community service crew, etc, etc. Yet we all get together for a venturing rendevous twice a year and have a blast together. The adult and youth leaders meet every other month to plan events and support any crew having problems." That's great to hear. Too often I hear the attitude with some specialized crews that if 'you aren't giving us exactly what we do in our crews at your district/council venturing events, forget about us coming'. One would think that despite their specialitizes, they can still come together to do fun stuff. "Every crew has selected a uniform unique to their speciality with the venturing logo prominently displayed, except the civil war crew, and the crews take an active part in the council putting on demo's for packs and troops. The DE that works with us also has a district since numbers and money drive the council. So I guess we are just doing it right and we have the council solidly behind us. So Venturing can and does work if it is done right and crews don't look at themselves as isolated and alone." Again, that's great. And many times its hard. Some crews just don't want to (for whatever reason) work with the district/council stuff. Some may be because they had to grow and survive without it, so that once someone comes along and tries to setup roundtables/forums, events, etc, they have an attitude of 'we never needed that before, so why get involved'. Its like they aren't even willing to meet you half way on things.

"Plaintiff founded Youthscouts as an unincorporated non-profit organization in 2002 when his daughter was denied the right to become a member or even a "shadow" member of her twin brother's Cub Scout troop, operated by a local council chartered by the BSA." Sorry, but his daughter has no such "right to become a member" of ANY organization.

"Contrary to what was stated above. Venturing Leaders DO have a roundtable. It is called a Venturing Leaders Roundtable. (See page 337 of the Venturing Leaders Manual Pub#34655E." Was. Venturing Roundtables were recently renamed "Monthly Program Forums". The Monthly Program Forum book is basically the same book as the previous Venturing Roundtable book. (but for some reason they haven't changed the office patches for the Venturing Roundtable Commissioner and Staff...) BUT, the problem is that in many districts, there aren't enought crews to successfully have Roundtables/Forums. Hence, as I noted previously, in many councils its done at a council level, at least quarterly or bimonthly. As the Scouter's Key/Training Awards only require you to attend 4 Venturing Roundtables a year, that helps.

The National Scout Shop in my council sells a small yellow ribbon patch, which has a button loop. Many scouters wear it on the button of the right pocket.

"Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. Like that won't happen! I do not have any old copies of the Handbook. While Campmastering at one of our council properties, I was looking at a Handbook with a 50's copyright I believe and was amazed to see that the Eagle rank was attained just like Star and Life (paraphrasing here) with a certain number of MB's, time in a POR, Scout Spirit, etc. and no project was involved. Did I read it right? Did a scout just basically do the same basic steps as Star and Life and became an Eagle?" There were more changes then that over time. Originally, Star, Life and Eagle were nothing more then 'super merit badges'. You mearly earned them by being a First Class Scout with certain merit badges. NOTHING ELSE. Life was earned by earning 5 specific health-based merit badges. Star was earned by earning 10 merit badges, including the 5 for Life (yes, Star was higher then Life. This was switched in the 1920s) Eagle was earned by earning ANY 21 merit badges. ANY. Nothing more. This means a boy could earn Eagle without earning Star or Life! Also, ANY adult was considered automatically a "First Class Scout", was allowed to earn merit badges, and thus could be an Eagle Scout AS AN ADULT. This policy was allowed for a long time, was frowned upon by the 1950s, and finally when they added certain requirements in the 1960s, ended. "When was the project added?" Some time in the 1960s. Like someone said, if you refuse to learn the lessons of history, you are doomed to repeat them. Before one starts arguing about requirements, its a good idea to know what they REALLY WHERE over the years...

"Not to change the subject, but I am in reference to district support, are the Venturing Roundtables successful?" The answer is... it depends. You need enough crews in your district to have a successful Venturing Roundtable (or Venturing Monthly Program Forum, which is the new name) and which will send people to the event. Sadly, you will find that some crews just don't or won't bother to participate (LDS Crews mainly, but others not well versed in how the BSA works or have very non-traditional crews just won't come out). This is why in many places, you see Council-wide Venturing Roundtables (maybe not monthly, but atleast bimonthly or quarterly), until you can build up enough crews in a district to have them at that level. Which will take time, and won't make the council-wide RTs go away until all or most districts can do it themselves. Another thing to keep in mind is that Venturing RT, unlike Cub Scout or Boy Scout RTs, include the youth. You will get some adults upset at this who don't know that's the norm. You want to encourage crew officers and advisors to attend them. But that can get hard, because then it become 'yet another meeting to attend', so you have to have a great program to give them a reason to come.

"AS I look at the COuncil Hierarchy, I don't see a Boy Scout, Cub Scout, or Exploring Council Committee why do we need a Council Venturing Committee?" While you don't have a Cub Scout or Boy Scout Council Committee, it IS recommended to have a Council Venturing committees. One of their main purposes is to support the council Venturing Officer Association, which are the youth who drive the venturing program in your council.

"The Insignia Guide doesn't show on the adult uniform NAME TAGS either, does it? "SO, since it doesn't show name tags, then we must remove them." What are you yammering about??? The Insignia Guide DOES show adult uniform name tags and were they are worn. If you aren't in the OA, it goes on the right pocket flap. If you are in the OA, above the pocket flap. http://www.scouting.org/media/insigniaguide/10.aspx

Ideally, Venturing should be supported by the districts as one of the 'traditional' programs. So they should be supported by the DEs, have a Venturing Roundtable (now called Monthly Program Forum) alongside Cub Scout and Boy Scout RTs. The idea of having all the Venturing Crews within a council be part of a separate, council-wide 'venturing district', as noted, is an idea from the old days of pre-1998 Exploring, and really not what should be done. Sadly, because too many districts will have few or no crews, what crews out there too often get little support from their districts. HOWEVER, that said, its usually a good idea (and one that is recommended) that there be one of the professionals on staff tapped as the "Venturing Staff Advisor". This would be in addition to their other duties. In most cases, this would probably be a DE. Best way to support Venturing is having a Council Venturing Chair, Venturing Staff Advisor, and a Council Venturing President (youth). These are your council 'key 3' of Venturing, similiar to the OA. (the council Venturing president would be your VOA president).

This is my understanding from having heard the question asked a few years back. This may or may not be correct. To be able to issue CEUs for Wood Badge (or for any program, actually) a fee must be paid to some certifying agency. Apparently, in the past the use of WB for CEUs was never very high, and wasn't high enough to justify the cost to the BSA to get WB as a properly certified CEU. So this was quietly dropped several years back (maybe before 21CWB). So AFAIK, you can't get CEUs for WB now.

"Looking to the history of this thread, I found the event emb described to be truly saddening. To be asked not to return implies an absolutely horrid group dynamic, where the only viable solution was removal." Sorry, but the event was MUCH more then 'horrid group dynamic'. These were a couple of people that probably had no business being in scouting. The fact that the professionals were involved with the removal should have told you there was more then just 'group dynamics'.

"Which begs the question, why isn't there the equivilant of the BSA Fieldbook for the Venture program?" Why should the in-troop Venture program have a separate Fieldbook? And why should we care, as we're dealing with the Venturing program? The current BSA Fieldbook is for Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturers. However, I have to agree with another poster that I think the 2nd edition is much better then the current one. That's the one I had as a scout & explorer.

"seems that if it isn't literally in print, then it can't or shouldn't be done. all other explanations are that it must be an "urban legend". ;o" Uh, yeah. Like the people I would encounter who would wear the World Conservation Award where the World Crest would go, because some scouter told them it belonged there, despite all the documentation that says it doesn't.

And this is probably an issue better handled by your council office, then by us.

"I got home and checked. It is Chapter 7, "Training Youth Leaders", in the current SM Handbook. " That is not Troop Leadership Training. That is the position-specific training you are to provide your new youth leaders BEFORE you take them thru TLT.

"Here is what the Insignia Guide says. " Philmont Bull, worn on the left side of the jacket or jac-shirt above the pocket" " It further states that the Canoe Base loon and Sea Base Shark go in the same location. "Anyone who has been to Philmont on either the Trek side or at the Training Center can wear the Philmont Bull. Put the tail wherever you want there is no official rule or tradition that covers it, only an urban legend." It's been stated by high-up at Philmont that the 'tail over the shoulder' is an urban legend. There is no basis for it, but its been around for years.

"The insignia Control Guide has the exact location for the Philmont Bull and the Charles L Summers Loon that is also worn on the red jac shirt on the shoulder in the same location." "Sorry Don't remember if Sea base have something or not. if not let it be the starfish." For Seabase it used to be a conch. Now its a shark. This is mentioned in the Insignia Guide. BTW, the idea of wearing the tale of the bull over the shoulder seam is a myth.

TLT can't be found in the SMHB. Its always been a separate item. Ask around, maybe one of your fellow scouter leaders has a copy. I see the troop leader training cards are available on ScoutStuff, am surpised they don't have it in stock. Contact your local scout shop, maybe they have a copy or can get you one. TLT is supposed to be done in the troop before your boys go to NYLT.

"My only question is "why"?" Same question I had. What's the value in doing this? I would also worry about the possible problems this might cause the scout down the road if all he had was non-standard, troop-issues cards instead of the ones from National Supply. Would someone think he really didn't earn the rank/merit badges? Would the kid think he got ripped off because he got a locally create card instead of the one from National (case in point, I was very disappointed when I staffed WB to get a locally made certificate instead of the official, national supply one).

Ok. Well, the easiest way would be to just order it from the BSA. We have an on-line catalog, Scout Stuff (http://www.scoutstuff.org) that you should be able to order it from. Books you'd probably want to get: Venturer Handbook/Ranger Handbook, #33494 Quest Award Handbook, #33151 TRUST Award Handbook, #33154 Venturing Leader Manual, #34655E

"I was thinking of being asked to leave the training before tickets were set up." Uhhhhmmmm. Yes. A course I was on we had 2 people who were asked to leave after the first weekend. They were asked to do so by one of the professionals on the course (not sure if they were staff or a participant), with full knowledge/approval of the SE and CD. The whole thing was something that I think would rarely, rarely, happen. But in the case I saw, was justified... That's all I'll say on the matter.

Not everyone completes their ticket. I know that while every CD wants to have 100% completion of tickets, its not automatic or always happens.