emb021

AFAIK, BSA policy is that married couples can share sleeping arrangements, unmarried can't. Engaged isn't married. And in some cases, being married you'll still be in separate areas. (ie married couples aren't likely to be housed together at NOACs or Jamborees) This should be brought up to his boss, the SE.

"The Outdoor Leader Skills (OLS) program was designed for Boy Scout and Venturing Leaders, and is a pre-requisite for these leaders attending WB. " Sorry, no. OLS was only designed for Boy Scout leaders and is only required for them (they need it to be considered 'basic trained'). It's intended to give Boy Scout leaders the outdoor skills thru First Class. Its recommended for other leaders (cub scout, webelos scouts, and venturing), but not required. Its a good recommendation that those leaders take it before they go thru WB if they don't have outdoor skills, as well as for PH. But the only required courses for WB is whatever is required for basic training for your program, whatever it may be. I do enought training in Venturing to know what is and is not required.

"According to the Scientologists, founder L. Ron Hubbard was an Eagle Scout and met Calvin Coolidge. They state he was the nation's youngest Eagle, at 13, but that seems debatable." AFAIK, there is no record as to the youngest Eagle. I have no idea if its been verified he was an Eagle or not. One thing to keep in mind is that at the time, you had to be 12 to join Scouts. So he would have to have earned Eagle in less then 2 years or so. Would it be feasible to earn 1st Class plus 21 merit badges during that amount of time (no time requirements for star-life-eagle at the time)? As for meeting Coolidge, I would think that could be verified by newspaper records or the like. What was the situation? Some kind of 'report to the nation' thing?

"I am also belong to an LDS Group and I am starting a Varsity Patrol, but except for the Comittee and Scout Master, noone else has any experience. I am trying to push my scouts to become more Scouts than LDS Scouters." Actually, you're not starting a Varsity Patrol, but a Varsity Scout Team, which is a separate unit from a Boy Scout Troop. While Varsity Scouts are for boys 14-18, the LDS Church only uses them for boys 14-15. The issues you seem to be seeing is something that others amount LDS Scouters have seen. They are trying to get the church to change things such that those called to be scout leaders are going to be there long enough to get the training and do a good job. When I was at PTC for Venturing week, we had someone speak to us about Venturing and LDS, and he touched on some of these issues.

"This was an April Fools Day joke posted on the OAimages.com website earlier this year. Apparenlty someone didn't get the joke and has been spreading it around." You're not kidding that some didn't get the joke! There was some heartburn on the Arrow-L list about this, including a few people at the Regional/National level that were very bent out of shape about it, after some people contacted them very upset after reading it. I have my own take on that, but I won't say what that is.

Well, keeping with stories along those lines. My first time going to the Jamboree was as a youth in 1981. While my troop knew about the Jamboree, no one really pushed it or promoted it (ie talked it up to the kids, encouraged kids to go, that sort of thing). So I didn't really pursue it like I should have, but got on the waiting list. 2 weeks out, I was told I was going. We had to scramble to get my stuff, including 2 new 'oscar de la rente' uniforms, including shorts (up till then I never wore scout shorts of any kind) and a red poplin jacket. Had to put up with some silly stuff (patrol kept changing its name, and settled on rattlesnake). Overall, a lot of fun. First exposure to the concept of 'class a/class b' uniform. This would lead me to going to Philmont the next year (part of a council contigent, the first in many years in my council). College prevented me going to the 1985 jamboree. For the 1989 one, I put in for a position of one of the contingent leaders (was an active ASM at the time, and had just taken WB). I thought I had a good chance, but was turned out. Was a little upset/annoyed when I heard a big reason was the PTB thought I was 'too young'. I felt that was an asset, as did many of my scouting friends. I instead went on staff (Trading Post). Fun time, tho the job sucked. I attended the unofficial WB gathering (was a little annoyed that it was unofficial. I had just gotten my beads before Jambo, and was looking forward to it, having heard of it at previous jamborees.) Green Bar Bill was there, and beaded a couple of people, including one from my council! Went back in 93. I wanted to be part of the OA Indian Village, as doing stuff in the area of southeastern native american culture has been a big interest of mine for years, and there aren't that many who do it in scouting. But got turned down and instead went as part of the Buckskin Games group. (again, there was an unofficial WB gathering. It was sad that GBB had passed away the previous year. AFAIK, they've never had another such gathering at Jambo). Tried to go in 97. Tried and failed again for OA indian village. Got picked for Trading Post, but had to turn it down when my boss wouldn't give me the time off. Jerk. Went back in 01, this time finally on OA Indian Village staff. Very exhausing. But lot of fun. Went back again in 05. For various reasons, did not do OA Indian Village staff. Didn't even bother to apply for a position with them. In retrospect, in light of the weather conditions and such, it was probably a good idea I hadn't. This time I was part of the APO Info Booth staff. Lot of fun, despite some of the problems we had that year. IMO, 05 was less well run as compared to the previous Jamborees at APHill. I plan on going back in '10. I've been told verbally I have a position on the APO Info Booth staff again (tho I wanted to be in charge this time. seems people forgot I commited to do that when no one else was interested. :\ ).

"Well then, why don't they present woodbadge beads to the boys then?" Because Wood Badge (2 words) beads are for adult training???

The Leadership Training booklet is clear that self training and one-on-one training are still valid options. Get the training syllabus (not that expensive) and work things out with your training committee.

The only required training is that you have completed the basic training for your program. One thing that I think is recommended, but not required, is that everyone take Intro to Outdoor Leader Training, which is boy scout training. This would probably help the non-Boy Scout people who don't have camping experience, plus I believe it would be an intro to the patrol method as well. I know on the Venturing side we sometimes recommend the same thing for Venturing leaders who don't already have camping experience.

I have to agree with BSAChaplain. VenturING Crews that are nothing more then adjuncts to troops are rarely very strong or successful. Too often they are forced to be secondary to the troops program and are never able to succeed on their own. Its fine for crews to work with troops, but too tightly coupled is usually a formula for failure.

John-in-KC: To answer your question, the first PDF flier on the uniform clear stated that parts were mix and match. I do not take that to mean insignia is mixed, but that parts (pants, shirt, belt, hat, socks) can be. Read the article on the new uniform in the current issue of Scouting magazine (here it is on-line: http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0809/a-design.html) Quote: "And the uniform items are transitional, so you can mix and match the present and the future."

"Not to slam anyone here, but I find the words "transitional" and "centennial" somewhat misleading. Does this mean that this uniform is temporary, and that another one is already on the horizon, prehaps to be used after the centennial celebration is completed? (that was a rhetorical question, buy the way) I realize these are BSA buzz words, but can't we just call it the (new) uniform?" Well, for me I fully understand what is intended by both, even if others do. "Centennial". National is just try to tie it in with the upcoming centennial anniversary of scouting. So its not just the 'new uniform', its the 'new Centennial uniform' (tm © ) Sort of rolling something new as part of it all. To me, its clearly the new Boy Scout uniform going forward. Nothing temporary about it, any more then any previous uniforms have been 'temporary'. "Transitional". We've all discussed this in other threads. With BSA uniforms, its always been the policy that when a new uniform is rolled out, you do NOT mix and match the uniform parts ('parts' means shirt, pants, belt, hat, socks, NOT insignia). This meant if you wanted to get the new uniform, you were supposed to get the whole shebang. Which is costly. So something different this time. First off, the uniform is not a radical revamp (as compared to the change from the 'Oscar De La Rente' uniform and its predicessor). And secondly, we are allowed to go to the new uniform in bits and pieces (get the new shirt, say, then later get things like the belt, pants, hat, etc). Much easier on the pocketbook that way.

"Although the policy regarding new uniforms has yet to be published, I think that common sense and tradition indicate that the green sock with the BSA at the top goes with the Centennial uniform. Sort of like the red-stripe socks matched the color of the official uniform pants. The new green socks match the new pants. The Thorlo socks don't match anything." Common sense? Oh, no, no, no. We don't do common sense here. We need to have a clear, written policy!! Seriously, I agree with you, I just worry about kids who didn't get the 'uniform socks' now feeling they need to purchase them.

I hope someone can help out with this. While at Philmont Training Center, was chatting with some fellow scouts about scouting in the past. Someone we touched on the "urban emphasis" program that was rolled out during the 70s (the period where camping was de-emphasised, Eagle Scouts had to get 25 merit badges, etc). One of the other scouters said that in his council, the forced all the scouts to re-earn their advancement with the new requirements. Someone at the time claimed it was 'policy'. I don't think it was, and think that someone at the local level (either council or unit), for some reason made this happen. They apparently lost kids over it (duh!), and the scouter mentioned his brother had quit over it. Anyone else heard of this? My own experiences is I joined scouting during this period, but around 75, so didn't have to experience this.

"Where did you get 'parts'? Aren't the unit numerals 'part' of the uniform? Aren't the shoulder loops 'part' of the uniform? Isn't the shirt 'part' of the uniform?" while insignia are part of the uniform, when I think of the 'parts' of a uniform, I think of: pants, shirt, belt, socks, hat. I don't think of the insignia as a separate part in the same way as, say, a shirt or belt.

"One problem I have seen with events like Jamborees is that a lot of adults want to attend because they want to be there. I have seen Scouter's from the Council I serve apply who are past their "Sell By Date" guys who have attended lots of Jamborees and seem to think it's their right." Sadly, you see this with a lot of groups. Jamboree isn't unique. (replace Jamboree with NOAC or other major scouting events). And its not unique with scouting, either. "They do put themselves before the important people -The Scouts!" Again, you see such people in many areas. Personally don't care for them, and hope I never become someone like that. Yes, I like to go to the major events. But I like to feel that its a 'right' only so far as I've done work to allow me to go, and that while there I will be contributing in some way on staff. "Then just to make matters worse some nit will write a big article in the Jambo newspaper about some old guy who is really old and hasn't missed a Jamboree since BP was there." I don't think there's anything wrong with such articles, unless you think they somehow encourage such idiots. "I did have one ASM who wasn't used to traveling by foot. I think I spent the best part of each day waiting for him to catch up with me." Well, there are all kinds. I'm not in the best of health (getting better), but I do a lot of walking. At Jambo I pretty much got everywhere on foot (probably could count on one hand how many times I used a bus). Despite being a bit overweight, I seem to have to wait for others to catch up with me. Go figure... "I did exchange words with one fellow who didn't want our Scouts to stop and refill their water bottles. He felt that we were holding up the line. Needless to say the water bottles were refilled. Most Scouts are used to being active and out and about." Well, having helped out in 2005 at the Exhibit area when they had to shutdown the opening show, I saw a lot of stupid stuff.

I see nothing that would lead me to believe that one style of sock is activity only. One IS listed in the on-line catalog as 'uniform sock' and the other as 'hiking sock', so I guess that's the basis for this person's statement. But I see NOTHING states that one is for uniform wear and another isn't. Further, on the uniform pdf, they have 5 different style of socks listed under the general heading of "Centennial Uniform Socks". This, to me, would say that ALL 5 styles are ok to wear with the uniform. The PDF doesn't use the term 'uniform sock'. The 5 styles are crew, low-cut, thorlo hiking, thorlo light low-cut hiker, thorlo light hiker crew (lovely combo of styles there) I would certainly hope some troops don't think they need to mandate a particular style of sock for everyone. The concept of 'transitional' has nothing to do with this, btw.

Maybe this will help: http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/2008UniformGuide.pdf Cub scouts wearing the blue uniform and Venturers wearing the green uniform are shown wearing the red unit numbers. Boys (either boy scouts or webelos scouts) wearing the new uniform are shown wearing the new unit numbers. Adults (including a male Boy Scout leader and a male Cub Scout leader) are shown in the new uniform with the new unit numbers and trained strip. "Anything, to me, means anything! Patches, pants, shirt, socks, unit numbers, council strips! Anything!" Where do you get this 'anything'? The only wording I've seen refers to 'parts' of the uniform being 'mix and match'. To me, parts of a uniform consist of things like pants, shirt, belt, socks, hat, NOT insignia.

There was discussion on-line about National allowing NYLT adult staff to earn their 3rd/4th WB beads for being on NYLT staff. Well, the latest Southern Region newsletter has info on it: http://srbsa.org/public/services/administration/pubs/spotlight/2008/091208.pdf It has been approved that certain positions on NYLT staff can earn you your 3rd or 4th WB beads. 3rd bead for NYLT ASM * complete 21CWB and complete ticket and received beads * complete Trainers EDGE/Trainers Development within 2 years of NYLT course * Staff a NYLT or NAYLE course as the ASM who provides training and oversight for youth staff (this is the ONLY position that qualifies!) 4th bead for NYLT SM * staffed 21CWB as a Troop Guide (ie, got third bead, but ONLY this position is acceptable) * complete NYLT Area/Regional Scoutmaster Course within 1 year of NYLT/NAYLE service and sign scoutmaster pledge. * complete Trainers EDGE/Trainers Development within 2 years of NYLT course * Serve as SM for NYLT/NAYLE Also noted that service on NYLT courses before 2008 DO NOT COUNT. So no retroactive recognition. It also seems that the means to earn these beads are pretty limited. Just being on NYLT staff won't do. It must be a specific position. And its clear you can't get your 4th bead without being on WB staff.

"the new uniform is Transitional and you can MIX and MATCH anything from the old with the new." when they speak of 'mix and match' its clear they mean uniform parts (shirt, pants, belt, socks), NOT insignia. "We've decided to keep the old Red numbers for our Pack Adult uniforms. They match the boys uniforms, we have a large supply of special order all-in-one patches, and no one has bothered to buy a new shirt yet anyway ;-> " Anyone wearing the new centennial shirt should be wearing the green & tan unit numbers and trained strips. That is clear from the materials National is showing. If people still have the old shirt, wearing the red unit numbers is not an issue. Again, you do not wear insignia just to match what others wear, but what is appropriate on the uniform YOU are wearing.

The new centennial uniform should use the new subdued green and tan unit numbers and trained strips. Cub Scout blue uniforms and Venturing green uniforms should use the old red & white unit numbers and old trained strips. There is a flyer on-line somewhere that shows this.

Some of this sounds fishy to me. Councils do not pick who will be on staff for the Jamboree. They mearly approve your application to be considered for staff. Staff selection will be done by National. If you couldn't be one the troop leaders, I see no reason why your application couldn't be changed to staff. At this point, while most councils should have approved the applications for staff from their councils, not sure how fast regions have been approving things as well as National. I know of a few people who have already gotten their staff jobs. "I contacted the Council guy (you know, the one who's been around 110 years and has 15 rows of squareknots). I had lots of vacation time to burn and said I was willing to do anything, even drive the garbage wagon. The response was "sorry, we have all the help we need." In my council, it seems the same people get selected time after time. How do I know? They're the ones who start wearing the new Jambo patch a year ahead of the event." Sorry, WHO has all the help we need? Again, your council is not the decider for Jamboree staff positions, that's National. They should have approved your app and let the chips fall where they may. Also, the Jamboree patch is sent out to registered staff and participants a year out. So there is nothing strange or unusual or elitist about wearing the Jamboree emblem in advance of the Jamboree. There is a reason they are sent out in advance...

"At one time, Life was the highest rank one could earn, and Eagle was an award given out based on the number of merit badges on earned - and it was possible to be awared the Eagle before one became a Life Scout - that was in the very beginning." Sorry, but not quite correct. At the begining, the highest rank was First Class Scout. Life, Star, and Eagle were nothing more then 'super merit badges', earned just by getting additional merit badges. There was no requirements for tenure, leadership, or any service project. (all that came MUCH later). Life was earned by getting 5 specific merit badges. Star was earned by getting 10 specific merit badges. Eagle was earned by getting ANY 21 merit badges. (this was hope one could get Eagle without getting Life and Star). Then early on, someone figured that the 5 points of Star would tie in better with the 5 required merit badges, and flipped Life and Star, and also added that the 21 merit badges had to include the required ones for Star and Life.

Also, as noted, there are no BSA insignia. Buttons look more like generic military style. There should say "BSA" I believe, and there should be BSA collar insignia, community strip and unit number. The insignia above the left pocket is definetly NOT BSA. Uncertain about the ribbons at the bottom of the sleeves.

That's not a 1940s era BSA uniform. Mitch Reis has a great work on dating BSA uniforms. Scouts never wore that kind of coat. Scouters DID, but in the earlier years, and this style had gone by the waysideb by the 1940s. Also, the kid looks very younger. Boy Scouts started at age 12. He looks to be about Cub Scout age, which never had that kind of uniform.