emb021

"Varsity Scouts is an entirely different program, aimed at sports programs. They can still earn ranks, but think soccer practices for meetings, and soccer games for campouts. Two very different animals. Boys who aren't interested in sports wouldn't have any reason to join. I have yet to run across of Varsity Team in our council. " Actually, that's incorrect. The mistake too many people make is thinking that Varsity Scouts is just a sports program. Its not. Its essentially the boy scout program with some changed to it to appear to the older boy, incorporate sports and high adventure. But to claim its just a sports program is wrong. "In reference to yours idea on what other associations do, didn't the BSA did that in the 40s and 50s with Exploring? Sorry I don't knwo as much as I should on that period, but maybe someone with someknowledge could enlighten us on how it worked." No. The BSA added older boy programs, but alongside Boy Scouting. They never ended Boy Scouting at 14 or 15. It ended at 18. Senior Scouting (Explorer Scouts, Air Scouts, Sea Scouts) were an added option for the boys when they reached 15 or 14.

"Again emb01, all you have shown is that others do it differently. What you do not offer any evidence of, is whether they do it better. Can you show any measurable benefit of their program over the BSA program that is directly related to the difference in program levels." "As an example, how many countries that use the program level differences you identified have more youth members because of it than the BSA?" "I believe the answers is ...none, is it not?" So you think the fact that they end 'boy scouting' at 14 is why their numbers are comparable lower then ours???? Is it all about numbers? That other scout associations do this shows mainly that ending 'boy scouting' at 14 is not a crazy idea, but one that is fairly standard. Is there any reason NOT to do so? Most of the 'reasons' seem silly. They seem more along the lines of 'that's how we've always done it', 'I need the older boys to run the troop', 'the boys need to be older/more mature before they earn Eagle', etc. Keep in mind that ALL the 'older boy programs' were started mainly to address what was known as the 'older boy problem', something that even B-P saw: when boys got around 15 or so, the standard boy scout program bored them. Also, it was probably hard to recruit older boys into scouting if they had to deal with the 11-13/14 year olds. These were some of the issues that lead to the formation of Varsity Scouts: a basic modification of the boy scout program, but one aimed specifically at the older youth. My own view is this: * end boy scouts at 14. * keep varsity scouts for those boys 14-18 who still want to do 'boy scouting' stuff, earn eagle, etc. * keep Venturing/Sea Scouting as is also. Ending the overlap would end the 'venturing is trying to steal my older boys' etc. I think ending the overlap would increase the size of both Varsity Scouts and Venturing. Also, councils would start doing a better job of promoting these programs to the 14-18 year old youths, both scouting drop outs and those who had never joined (and wouldn't, if it meant having to deal with the 'little kids').

"Well, I guess South Africa is the exception (they are a Commonwealth nation, are they not?). We visited several different Scout groups while traveling there in 2004, but we never saw or heard any division based on age," The Scout Association of South Africa have the following sections: * Cub Scouts, 7-10.5 * Scouts, 11-17 * Rovers, 18-30 "or the term "Senior" Scouts." As I tried to make it clear in my first posting, different associatons call this section different things. 'Senior Scouts' is the old name for it. Other names used include "Venture Scouts", "Venturers", "Explorer Scouts" and the like. South Africa doesn't seem to have this, per say.

"I'm curious - which "other countries" do this? That is not what I've seen in my limited exposure to international scouting." All of the Commonwealth nations do this, along with most of the ones I've read about: Americas, Asia, Europe. Most associations break up their program into 'sections'. Loosely, what most do are these levels: Ages 6-10, the 'cub section' Ages 11-14, the 'scout section' Ages 15-18, the 'senior section' Ages 18-25, the 'rover section' (NOTE, some countries have this, many don't) The senior section may have different options, such as Sea Scouts and maybe Air Scouts. But you DON'T see overlaping sections, and rarely read of a scout section running from 11/12 to 18. Read up on other scout associations. I think the articles on Wikipedia are pretty good in this regards. The above is VERY common. I'd hate to say all associations do it this way, because I think there may be some that don't. But most do.

"Is dual registration with the Crew or Troop being primary no longer an option?" It's still an option. Keep in mind that it should be a decision of the BOY where or not he will be registered in a troop AND a crew, or just a crew. No one should set policies that require boys to remain registered in a troop in addition to being in a crew. Its their decision on what they do.

"In other countries, those program divisions typically happen within a single scout unit, eh? That is to say, one "troop" or "group" consists of cubs and juniors/webelos and scouts and seniors/ventures and rovers and adult leaders eh? Unlike the U.S., they don't quit their unit when they go up a program level, so the older girls and boys are often acting as leaders to younger ones, in addition to runnin' their age-specific stuff. Very different feel from the way we do things, so I'm not sure it really compares." You seem to be mixing 'unit' and 'group'. FWIK, they shouldn't be seen in such a way. And AKAIK, that's not how it works. You would have a Pack, Troop, Crew, etc, all under the same group leadership. This is little different from out having a CO having a Pack, Troop, Crew. However, I am not aware of mixing of age groups in the sense you are speaking of. Each section has their own distinct uniform, program, and leadership, and thus, should have their own activities and the like. Sure, you could have events where the group comes together, but not in the sense you describe.

Actually, my comments were NOT based on what the LDS does, but what has happened elsewhere in scouting. I don't have a problem with boy scouting starting at 11. I think 10 is too young. In most other countries, boy scouting (or just scouts, if its co-ed) are for boys (or boys & girls if co-ed) 11-14/15. At this point the young must move to the next section (Venture, Venturing, Exploring, Senior, whatever its called). They don't have the problem of overlapping programs. Having been a boy scout leader, I can understand the reluctance ("we need the older boys to run the troop", etc). Yet, elsewhere the older boys are NOT there to run the troops, and things seem to be fine. So why can't we bit the bullet and make this change?

I'd have to check my collection of Boy Scout Handbooks. for a long time it was 11. 10.5 is a more recent change. I believe the change to 11 may have occured in 1949. At that time, they lowered the age of Explorers from 15 to 14.

A scout can wear both the cord and the patch. There is no rule that says he can't. Some things to keep in mind. For many decades the only emblem of the Den Chief was the cord. It wasn't until the 80s that they created a patch as well. Also, there are 2 cords, one for Cub Scout Den Chiefs and the other for Webelos Den Chiefs. The same patch is used for both.

Neil's comments echo some of my own feelings on the matter. units do not 'own' the youth. The units are there for the youth. If they aren't meeting thier needs, they'll go elsewhere. Its silly for troops to speak of 'crews stealing our boys', as the boys are not 'owned' by the troop, so there is no 'stealing' of what you do not own. People also need to keep in mind certain things. the Boy Scout program was designed for the 11-13 year old boy. Venturing was designed for the high school/college age youth. The mistake that the BSA has made for decades is to extend the boy scout program pass the age of 14.

"Also Venture patrols can earn the Venture letter (used to be known in SD circles as the Varsity/Venture Letter) and earn the Varsity/Venture Activity pins. I know some read the Scouting Article from 2005 that gave an incorrect answer," Am sorry, but what is your basis that the letter (not an article) is incorrect? I wrote that letter to get an answer one way or another. If it was published there, it should be a correct answer. Claiming a uniform inspection sheet (which, btw, applies to both Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts) makes it correct doesn't work. Also, AFAIK, the Handbook never made mention of the letter. Frankly, I have been hearing rumors for years (at least since 2001) that National was going to (in one case I was told they had) get rid of the Venture Patrol.

"We also "award" the PL, and SPL their patches at the CoH. This is incorrect?" To a degree, yes. You present them their patches. Also, why wait until a CoH to present them their patches??? We should be following 'immediate recognition'. Once they are elected/selected for their positions, they should be presented their patches that night to put on their uniform. I would present outgoing youth leaders with their certificates at CoH, but not office patches.

"I did not SAY the Scout should ONLY be recognized the once. But I have never heard of giving an award the first, then take it back and give it a second time." Since when are DC cords an 'award'??? How about the Troop present the DC office patch, and let the Pack present the cords? Also, the scout should be presented these ASAP after taking that position. Waiting until a COH is a bad idea (at least in the troops I've been involved in, this means the scout would have to wait 2-3 months after taking the position before he got the office patch).

The issue to me of wearing an OA sash at COT is less of 'no you can't', but 'no, you shouldn't'. As already noted, unless you are there representing the OA, you really shouldn't wear the sash. We know you are an Arrowman by your lodge flap. You don't also have to wear the sash. To me its less a matter of 'recognition', and more of being show-offish. Also, as we've noted that you can't wear the OA sash and merit badge sash at the same time, its important to realize that COT are really one of the few times a scout CAN (and should) be wearing his merit badge sash. So, please wear the merit badge sash at your troop court of honor and not your OA sash. Personally, as an adult I never wear my OA sash at non-OA formal events UNLESS I am there representing the OA. Again, I feel doing so is show offish.

"but were nonetheless required to register with the other unit also." That is because basically the LDS uses the BSA units as part of their youth program for boys. I assume that means that all the boys in their program are automatically being registered in the pack/troop/team/crew of their ward.

"What do you mean by "co-registered?"" Means they are registered in 2 units. However, AFAIK, a scout can't be registered in 2 scout troops. They can be registered in a troop and a crew, and even multiple crews. "Are you referring to a Scout also registered in a Venture Crew?" There is no such thing as a 'Venture Crew'. You mean "Venturing Crew". Yes, there is a difference.

"I'm curious - why a duffle/foot locker as opposed to a pack? He has lived out of his pack before at summer camp so I must be missing something here." A backpack is fine if you are backpacking to camp sites. At summer camp AND at jamboree, you are not going to be backpacking, plus you will usually have a LOT more stuff, as you are spending about 2 weeks away. A dufflebag is a much better idea (don't have to deal with a bulky frame), as it will go on a plane or bus. Foot locker is also a good idea (maybe even better) as it may protect your stuff better (won't get crushed) and if water proof, will protect as well. I would never use a backpack for going to the Jamboree. A duffle bag is what I used as a youth (and what was recommended), as well as for World Jamboree. I've used footlockers for jamboree on staff.

FWIW- Its clearly stated in the requirements what positions count for ranks, as well as giving the option of the 'SM assigned leadership project'. There are some positions (APL and Bugler) that don't count. The scout should have read the requirements. As to the issue of assigned positions. The SM Handbook and others speaks on how leadership positions should be handled. SPL and PL are elected. ASPL and PL are in many troops also elected (usually its the runner up for SPL & PL that gets those positions, or people run for them like you'd run for a position of VP in a club). All other positions are appointed, but they should be appointed by the SPL with SM approval.

In dealing with extra costs, its important to know what IS included in the contingent fees. * Uniforms. 2 complete uniforms at a minimum will be needed. Having extra items of some things is also good. Be sure your son knows how to wash his clothes without the use of a washing machine. * camping gear. There is a list of recommended items for camping. If he needs something, nows the time to know. * trading items/insignia. Your son will be expected to put a Jamboree patch, a Jamboree Shoulder Patch (JSP) and Jamboree troop numbers on each uniform he takes. He will be provided with 2 Jambo patches and a jamboree neckerchief. JSP and Jambo troop numbers, along with jambo patrol emblems may or may not be included with his contingent fees. ALSO, JSPs are BIG trading items. How many will he be provided? Will there be different versions he can get? How many does he want to trade? * souvenirs. You will be provided with a Jamboree catalog early next year, full of jamboree-branded items. What of these will your son want? Does he want extras of items, like Jamboree patches (to put on future extra uniforms, etc). Also, be aware that some items may only be offered at the jamboree (advise you get as much stuff that you do want in advance and keep it at home). Also, would he want to purchase any souvenirs during side trips? * dufflebag/knapsack. Will he be provided with these? Will he be required to get the Jamboree dufflebag and knapsack to use? As noted by Eammon, your son will want to use a large duffle bag or foot locker. Your contingent may want to dictate what is acceptable. * t-shirts. Will there be a contingent t-shirt? Will a certain number be provided, or will he be required to get them? Can he get extras if he wants? * contingent trips. These are usually included as part of the contingent fees, but good to know. Think about souvenirs and and snacks (meals during the trip are usually included in the contingent fees). Hope this helps.

"in their [bSA] rush to become a private, discriminatory, religious organization." The BSA has always been a private organization. Nothing has changed there. I have yet had anyone explain what a 'public organization' is, btw. The BSA has (like many organizations) had a membership policy about who can join. Other then dropping their restricitions on positions for women, the rest hasn't changed. Calling their policies 'discriminatory' is obviously an attempt at being inflamitory, especially in light of the fact that there is nothing illegal about their membership policies. As I think I've noted in the past, when people speak of a group being a 'religious organization' it usually means: 1) the group expouses a particular religious belief (whether it be something specific such as Baptist, Catholic, or the like, or more broadly such as Protestant or Christian). 2) and requires that its members accept that particular religous belief. The BSA has NEVER expoused any religious belief, and has only required that members hold some kind of religious belief. What that belief is up to its members to define. Calling the BSA a 'religious organization' is thus incorrect, regardless of whether that was said by people within the organization or outside of it.

Let's see... Long delayed update to the Venturing Leader Specific Training. (a draft was done, and I thought the final version was coming out this Fall). New training for youth such as Venturing Vector/Teaching Others and Mentoring, along with the new National Venturing Leadership Society. (was bothered by the fact that a new training course planned at PTC in 09 that would have introduced these things is now gone from the schedule). Delayed update to the "Here's Venturing: Delivering Venturing to Council/District". (was supposed to come out this Fall)

"CalicoPenn - you are correct that most of what is listed in our troop handbook is listed in one BSA lititure or another, but how many families in your troop have all those in their possession. Having all of those listed in one location for the scouts and their parents/guardians is handy because they don't have to run around and look here and there and this book and that." I can see good and bad points about this. I would prefer that instead of giving the information, that people are instead pointed to the appropriate BSA literature. I think the problem is less that its located in various BSA literature items, but most not know WHERE its listed. And have copies of those items so that the parents can take a look at them, if they desire. If one is just repeated what is in the BSA literature, that's one thing. But what if BSA updates things and you missed updating it. And too often what some troops do is NOT just repeat what's in the literature, but give their own 'spin' or interpretation. For myself, based on my past experience in troops, I would prefer a 'troop handbook' limit itself to: * giving a high level overview of things * point people to the appropriate BSA literature for the details * give information that is unique for the troop and NOT in contradition with BSA policies (ie, no attendence policy nonsense) * details on the troop (roster, etc) And prehaps supplement this with at least a once a year 'parent orientation' (near when you bridge over most of your cub scouts) to help ensure most parents understand what scouting and your troop does things vs how it was done in cub scouts or the like.

Be interesting to see when the National Supply catalog of Jamboree items comes out (supposedly in March/April) and find you can order as many as you want for $4/5.

National sent out some time ago a Council Jamboree Guide. You can access it on-line here: http://www.jamboleader.org/docs-2010/2010_Council_Jamboree_Guidebook.pdf Amoung other things is a timeline on when things should be done. Contingent leadership should have been picked during the summer, with recruitement going on this fall, with troops pretty much filled by the begining of next year, with a waiting list begun. Info is given on how to promo the jamboree. There is a video that went out (mentioned in Scouting magazine) to councils that can be used. Overall, good info on the jamboree for those not familiar with things.

mmhardy- Bob White is correct in what he is stating. The IRS doesn't require scout troops to have bylaws. The chartered org WOULD have bylaws, because they are most likely an incorporated body (even if they are just a "Friend of Unit X" type). Actually, at a minimum they'd need a corporate charter (also known as articles of incorporation or articles of association), which is a legal document. But even in the case of a "Friend of Unit X" type group, the bylaws would just define the charter org, and have NOTHING to do with the troop committee or troop itself. I am a member of several local groups who have bylaws. NONE have bylaws because the IRS requires it. (the IRS doesn't give a dame about our bylaws). We have bylaws because our parent organizations require them.