emb021

"It's the same chart as on the national website. It's a final chart, not an early one. This is the new setup. I agree it doesn't entirely make sense, but that's the deal." Problem with the chart is that it doesn't show all the national committees that exist. It only shows the top 2 levels. There is probably another 1-2 level of committees below what that chart shows. Part of the problem is that National has never really bothered to make clear to us 'rank and file' types how things are organized at the national level. What I know is what I've been able to glen over the years. And with the re-org, I have a very poor understanding of how it all fits/works.

If your issue was with the BSA using military-style campaign ribbons, you should have said so. Personally, I don't care for them either. I would have preferred they had issued patches and pins for the Bronze and gold awards instead of the ribbons (patches for use on the green shirt, pins for non-uniform wear, as well as for those crew who opt not to use the green shirt and might prefer pins). However, there IS a precedence for using such ribbons for non-military use. Before the use of the square knots, the BSA actually issued campaign style ribbons for some of the training awards. I'm not sure off the top of my head if they dropped them and went with the square knots during or after WWII. But it was done because of confusion with military-issued ribbons (as well as moving the BSA uniform from being seen as too military, which was was in the earlier years). Police use various campaign-style ribbons to stand for the awards they are given. Police Explorers hence have been using campaign-style ribbons since the 80s or so, including a red-white-blue one for Eagle Scout. I think the Venturing people most likely picked up the idea from that. National Supply already had the means to make them, so they went with that.

"the Bronze awards are the same size as standard military ribbons. My complaint is that BSA is 2 faced on the subject of wearing ribbons (specifically my award of the MOVSM). The insignia guide is somewhat contradictory to what is printed in the venturing hand book." There is nothing contradictory or two faced about it. The BSA prohibites the wearing of MILITARY campaign ribbons. In other words, ribbons issued by the US Military. The Bronze ribbons may be the same size, but they are NOT issued by the US military. So none issue. Not sure what you see as contradictory between the Insignia Guide and the Venturer Handbook. But I've found other problems with the Insignia Guide, so I wouldn't be surprised. Certainly when it comes to Sea Scout uniforming you need to go with what's in the Sea Scout Manual and not the Insignia Guide.

Its misinformation/misunderstanding. Sea Scouts are still part of the Venturing program. The new National Commodore (that the top volunteer leader of Sea Scouting) has said that there is no change to the Sea Scout Program. This idea is due to the recent organization change at National. National has gotten rid of the 3 program divisions (Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturing), and re-orged the various volunteer committees. Instead of the Sea Scout committee being a subcommitte of the National Venturing Committee, they are under different committees. Some Sea Scout volunteers have misunderstood this to mean that Sea Scouts are somehow 'free' of the 'oppression' of being part of the Venturing program. Sea Scouts still remain part of the Venturing program. As they've been since the Sea Scout Division became the Senior Scout Division back in 1935. I hope at an upcoming Sea Scout Regatta to have a change to speak with some national-level Sea Scout leaders about this changes so I have a better understand of what all is going on.

A JASM is a youth leader, not an adult, so would not take adult training. There is no specific training for JASMs. If he's gone thru NYLT, encourage him to go to NAYLE.

I think most councils do interviews. But they probably only spend time interviewing the top candidates. When I applied for a position as a contingent leader way back for the 89 Jamboree, I never got interviewed, because I was turned down without them doing that. But am surprised your council is only now doing interviews. The councils I work with picked their leaders a good six months or so ago, and they are rapidly filling up their troops. I think they will probably have them all filled by the end of the year and start having a waiting list.

"On another note, don't you find it interesting that the BSA used the Scout Assocoation's name for the then older youth program, Venturing, and the Scouting Assoc. now calls their older youth program Exploring?" Actually, many scout associations (not just the UK one) use the term "Venture", "Venture Scout" or "Venturing" for their older youth program. Which is certainly where we got "Venture" and "Venturing. And yes, I did find it funny that the UK Scout Association changed their Venture Scout program to Exploring a few years back. "Now to get back on topic, what are some ideas to handle the situation in the original post." Like I said, its important that the crew have a separate identity, program, and activity from the troop. Its one thing to have a crew be split off from a troop. CNYScouters scenario is fine. But the problems occur when you have things like the troop dominating the crew (crew not allowed to have own program, must do everything in conjunction with/for the benefit of the troop) or the crew is nothing more then a glorified venture patrol. The crew (and its members) can't assume they can just come to troop events. Get the crew to start having their own meetings/events apart from the troop. Its one thing to have occasion (and planned out as such) joint events. But the crew can't assume they are invited to all troop events or the like.

"It baffles me how so many people can simply ignore the Insignia Guide. It's very clear, and opinions opposed to it are simply inaccurate." Some ignore it because they aren't aware of it. And I would disagree that its clear. Some people are still confused by it. Worse, you have people who don't understand that the Insignia Guide tells you WHO can wear WHAT in what location. Some seem to be looking for something that says that someone CAN'T wear something or that something ISN'T worn in a location, when that's not how the guide is written.

"Does anyone know if National Supply sells the green "Venturing BSA" strip seperate form the uniform," National Supply made these strips available after the program was rolled out in 1998, so that those of us with the prior uniform could changed the strips. AFAIK, they didn't sell them, but would mail them to you if requested. This was only done during the first year, and they are probably long gone. But you could also call them and ask.

"Buy all the current SS recipients an annuity for the difference between their prebate and their SS and make all the people close to retirement years whole on their "contributions" and flush the whole deal. check out the private retirement plans that could be had at the same cost. I think the city of Galveston is the one most cited." SS and all that is a ticking time bomb that will ruin our country even further. These programs need to be eliminated. Those on it, need to be moved to a private program. (we can't just cut them off). "Require service after high school either military or running around the world digging ditches or drilling water wells in third world countries." 'required service' is called something else. Slavery. NO. "Require every citizen be armed ala Switzerland unless their rights revoked by a court. "An armed society is a polite society" " Citizens in Switzerland aren't armed. They have weapons in their homes because of the fact pretty much everyone is part of the militia. I like the scenario in the sf comic 'Roswell, Texas'. Every Texas citizen is armed, which is required by law. Unless you have a 'license to not carry'. Texas doesn't have a standing army, and doesn't need it. And no one is willing to invade them as every citizen is armed, able, and willing to use force to defend themselves and their country. "Repeal all drug and vice laws if people want that stuff they should be able to get it in an open market with fair tax paid same as smokes and alcohol. Prohibition did not work before what makes us think it will work now." No arguement there. "All government incentives and disincentives should be removed from the marketplace why should the government make your choices. examples agriculture subsidies for not growing a certain crop, special tobacco taxes, tax credits for anything, and all bailouts or guarantees." What we need is separation of economy and state. "Return to the Senators being appointed by the state legislatures rather than being elected this is part of the checks and balances that has unwisely been eliminated with our current system. The senators are there to protect the rights of the state." This is something I really only learned recently. I had no idea why the senators were appointed by the states. Certainly wasn't something I was taught in my government-run schools. Hmmmm. But this is something I now agree with.

"I know it's Venturing, but when all the professional staff you knew from your FD all the way to the national Venturing Director have refered to the crews as "Venture Crews" it does kind of stick with you." I've never heard Charles Holmes refer to Venturing Crews as "Venture Crews". He, in fact, wrote a note on the correct terminology. The only pros I hear saying that term are local people who just don't know the program.

"When they started the Venture Crew, then everyone wore their Eagle Patches after they turned 18 per uniform policy on the Venturing shirt. " In Venturing, you may wear the patch until your are 21 on the Venturing uniform, because you are still a youth. However, most Venturers wear the knot, and not the patch. In fact, the Venturing Youth Cabinet encourage the wearing of the knot after 18. (PS its Venturing Crew, not Venture Crew)

Thing to keep in mind is that Venturing Crews (note, its NOT "Venture Crew") and Boy Scout Troops are separate units. I've found that Venturing Crews that are nothing more then an extension of a troop (ie usually nothing more then a glorified Venture Patrol) rarely succeed. The Crew and Troop need to have separate identities and do their own things. I also have to question WHY are these Venturers at the troop event? Was this event planned out as a joint Crew/Troop event? Or did someone amoung the Venturers get the idea that if its a troop event, the members of the crew are free to attend, do to some preceived ties between the two. Certainly, yes, one should have concerns regard YPT and all that. And some may worry about the appropriate behavior of the girls with the boys who aren't in the crew. And if they are camping, they really need to be separate from the troop, little different, as you note, as patrols are separate from patrols. But there are also the co-ed camping issues the crew needs to be mindful of. But it also sounds to me like the crew needs to develop its own program and identity, and be doing its own events, not tagging along with the troop.

"And then decide not to wear the "world crest" unless you've been out of the country on scouting business." That's an old concept of the BSA only. WOSM wants all scouts around the world to wear the World Crest. In pretty much all the other countries, the World Crest is a standard part of the uniform.

"You must be a libertarian." yes, I am. "My biggest concern regarding an Obama presidency is his belief in positive rights. Once you do that then everything becomes a right. Education, food, housing, health care, Internet access, cable television, electric cars and pool cleaning." 'positive rights'. Never heard that term. But what you list are not rights, but priveleges/entitlements. If someone has to pay for it, its not a right. To claim such things as a 'right' seems like socialism to me.

I recommend you read the Constitution. Its set forth how our federal government should work. In particular, ONLY those things explicitly allowed by the constitution may be done by the federal government. Everything remains with the states and us citizens. That is the true concept of 'federalism'. As to your points. * the governemnt needs to stay out of the economy. The economic crisis was cause by government interference, and it will be made worse by further. The Great Depression was cause by the interference of Hoover & FDR. The bailout should be recended, bad debt needs to be liquidated, and the Federal Reserve eliminated. * no real issue here. * yes, redundany in many things needs to be eliminated. Along with a lot of other unnecessary federal departments (Education, etc etc) * We need to bring our troops home. We have no business building nations. Our founders warned us of this. * Not the job of the government to do this. The market, if you allow it, will do this just fine. * Federalism means the federal government should restrict itself to what it should, leave the states to their job. Education is NOT the job of the federal government. Hell, government should get out of schools, its just a way of indoctrination. Leave it to the people to decide. * Not the job of the government to provide health care. Health care is NOT a right. The problems in the health care industry are largely the results, again, of government interference in the form of Medicare/Medicaid and such. Again, the market will do a better job. * Don't confuse service with slavery. Volunteer service is when you want to do it. Forced service is nothing more then slavery. * Better idea would be to check the Constitution. If a governement function is not mentioned, get rid of it! That would really shrink the government and bureaucracy. * Better yet, is the get the Congress to understand they only have 17 things they can do. Anything else is unconstitution, ie ILLEGAL. They took an oath to obey the Constitution. Lets make sure these people OBEY their oath. That goes for the President as well.

"As much as everyone loves the two Party system" Do not assume everyone loves the 2 party system. There is nothing that enshrines 2 parties. Its just our system has become rigged against any but the 2 major parties, which is wrong.

""although we only get the knot if he is continuing as an adult leader" "That's just wrong. The kid earned Eagle. Why in the world would you NOT present him with the medal? (Adults can wear the medal too, on formal occasions)." I think you misread his post. the presentation kit does not include the knot. He's saying they only add the knot if they know he is going to continue as an adult leader.

that's also in conflict with other statements that there will be no changed to Sea Scouts and Sea Scouts are still part of Venturing. Just because the volunteer committees have changed doesn't mean the programs change. I have a hard time accepting this as so until I see something more concrete.

This org chart is the organization of the national level committees, composed of volunteers. AFAIK, the programs remain the same (Cub Scout Program, including Tiger cubs, cub scouts, and Webelos; Boy Scout Program, including Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts, and Venturing, including Venturing and Sea Scouts). The 3 Program Divisions were eliminated, but these programs wil still operate the way they are. The various national committees were also reorged. It appears that Sea Scouting is not a direct subcommittee of the National Venturing Committee. The National Venturing Committee still exists, but I understand its a sub-committee (or maybe even a sub-sub committee) of one of the committees on this chart. As far as we at the local level, NOTHING CHANGES. Hopefully this re-org will improve the support our programs get from National. We'll see.

"I am going to have to disagree with you on Eagle to a degree. The new requirements may be designed for an11-13 year old, But for us older Eagles the requirements were definitely NOT. "Now grant you I have not seen this policy that you mention in writing" Its not policy, and not me you're disagreeing with, but National. During the 1970s, the BSA's own booklet on Cornerstone Training clearly states that the entire Boy Scout Advancement program was written for the 11-13 year old boy in terms of ability. Whether this is true of the advancement requirements of earlier decades I won't debate. The advancement programs of the older boy/youth programs (old Explorer Scout, later Explorer, Exploring, and now Venturing) were always targetted at an older audience.

"emb021 says that "Eagle was designed for ages 11-13". I would be hard pressed to name an 11 year old Eagle. But I guess the new rules might make it possible. Would make the old Eagles proud of the work they did for thiers." Guess that should shame the boys that are near 18 and still finishing thier Eagles eh? National has stated in print that the boy scout advancement program was designed for the 11-13 age boy in mind, in terms of ability/skill set. It has nothing to do with an 'rules' of when you earn it. Which is funny when you consider the many people who seemed to want to hold back boys from getting Eagle until they are in high school. Whereas, the Venturing & Sea Scout advancement programs were designed for the high school aged. "Guess that should shame the boys that are near 18 and still finishing thier Eagles eh?" To a degree, yes. Why did it take them 7 years to earn Eagle (if they started out at 11). If they started much later, that would be one thing.

I've been to several jamborees. I've always kept atleast one shirt with one of the old patches on it. Also, I see scouters in my area who went to older jamborees as a youth, and still wear that patch.

"can the individual in question be a Full ASM or only a JASM within a Troop structure?" The position of JASM is a youth position within the troop, for boys 16 to 18. (National policy is that JASMs must be atleast 16). Once you are 18, you are no longer a youth in a troop, and so can't be a JASM. For someone 18-21, the only positions within a troop available is ASM. AFAIK, you must be 21 to be on a troop committee or SM (or for that matter, a district/council scouter). And as noted, Venturing is an option, as you are a youth in Venturing till 21. Frankly, the positions for 18-21 'adults' is very limited within the BSA. Believe there are only about 4-5 positions along with Venturing/Sea Scout membership available to that age range.

If you look at all the pictures and fliers with the new uniform, they clearly show the NEW trained strip (its a little smaller, and green and tan) ON the flap of the 'tech pocket', with the office patch on the tech pocket. What is unknown is where the commissioner arrowhead award goes on the new shirt. Everything else stays were it usually is.