emb021

Please note, our Lodge STILL did camp setup and take down (these were our Spring Fellowship and Service Day events). Nothing was said of the Lodge not doing this work. What changed (amoung others) was we stopped using this as Ordeal events.

You didn't mention what kind of work was going on. Well, let me give you a little background on how my Lodge handled this over the years. When I went thru my Ordeal, Ordeal was conducted after summer camp was finished. Ordeal consisted of us shutting down summer camp, which meant moving the tents into storage, moving the tent platforms (large, heavy wooden platforms) and cement block to shelters. This was done in July in the the hot Florida sun. It sucked. Most lodge events at the time were all work and little or no fun. (you have to have a balance, and even doing an 'all fellowship' weekend is a welcome break when all your other weekends have a lot of work being done). At the time ALL lodge events were work events, the lodge was treated like a 'forced labor group' and we had poor attendence and all that went with it. It took a lot of work by dedicated adults and certain youth to turn that around. Then we shifted and had the Ordeal be done before camp, as part of setting up for summer camp. So this meant setting out platforms and putting up tents. A lot of work, but actually more work then shutdown. The previous Ordeal period now became a Service Day of the lodge. Then it was decided that the candidates were just doing scut work. Nothing meaningful. So then next change was that the lodge membership would setup camp and the candidates would instead be engaged in various service work at camp. The idea being is they could return to camp and say 'I helped do that as part of my ordeal'. The next change was to move Ordeal to the Spring time (cooler, etc). Now everyone was doing meaningful service at camp. Camp would still get setup at our 'summer fellowship'. You need to have a balance between service and fellowship. There is nothing wrong with one weekend being all fun. But at other weekends, make sure there is time for both work and fun. For candidates, try to make sure they are doing worthwile work, not scut work.

National doesn't track totals for Venturing Silver or Venturing Ranger. Quartermaster they should have. I have old stats for some years for the senior awards on my site (taken from BSA Annual Reports, etc): http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Falls/8826/ You're probably not going to find membership stats on-line. You need to check BSA Annual Reports. A good university library that has a collection of government publications may have them, as the GPO used to print them.

Building off of what "ljnrsu" posted. This period is also referred to as the "improved scouting program", as that was what National call it. It was a disaster. As I understand it, the BSA asked Hillcourt to write the 9th edition. Also, as part of this, Hillcourt created a year-long program of training to revamp and bring back 'outing' called "All out for Scouting". This culimated in a weeklong training program for junior leaders called "Brownsea Double-2". While the program is long gone, elements of B22 lived on in subsequent week-long council junior leader training programs. And this is also way many councils call their JLTC courses (the forerunner to NYLT) "Brownsea". Hillcourt also hated skill awards and wanted them all to be loaded up in boxcars and dumbed on a railroad siding. National didn't finally get rid of skill awards until 1989.

CNY's point is one I was going to make. National policy was always when they changed requirements, if you were currently working on the old ones, you could continue to do so. Not sure of any end date, but certainly the only people who could use the 'old' Eagle requirements would have been the Life Scouts already working on them. New Life Scouts would have had to work on the new Eagle requirements.

"I would consider an ASM to be "trained" (e.g. wear the trained strip) when they have completed Boy Scout Faststart, Youth Protection (YPT), New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and ASM Leader Training, and Outdoor Leader Skills." Actually, that's when National considers them "trained" as well. I agree on when they should take WB. Too often people are rushed into going to it, when they should have a little experience. Within 2 years is a good recommendation.

"It is funny, but the only thing that stuck in my crawl about Lem in the movie was that he was called Lem by the kids. It just didn't sit right for me and the Mrs..." And again, why? We address aunts and uncles by their first name. (certainly in my family and in most families I am aware of). As I noted, maybe not so in cub Scouting, but in boy scouts and certainly into Venturing, the adults leaders are more like older brothers/uncles. I'd rather be addressed as "scouter michael" (which I've seen done in other troops) then as "mr xxx". If the scout/venturer isn't comfortable with addressing me by my first name, so be it. And, did it seem the scouts didn't respect Lem? Think about that. "How do the 12 laws get uniformly applied? Are their guidelines as to what are the common courtesies?" We go over the scout laws, but again, not in the way you seem to think. We are more 'gentle' about it. Usually we point out at the end of the meeting a little point about one of the scout laws. Keep in mind that the scout to 'do their best to obey them'. That's what we expect, that they do their best. "Should a scout's fingernails be untrimmed and filthy? What about body odor?" Most of that should be taken care of by their parents. Who taught you about these things? If the scout's parents are failing to do so, then, yes, a scout leader may take a scout aside and talk to them about this. "What about hair length, or body art and piercings?" You're in the 21st century. Society has changed. Hair length is no long the issue it was back in the 60s/70s. Body art has become less an issue, but kids can't get it done without a parents' permission. Same with piercings. Hate to break it to you but long hair, tatoos and piercings don't indicate a person is bad. "What about foul language?" Most scouters will say something to a scout who does so. "What about the standardized method of speaking to adults? You would think that that would be the first thing- wouldnt you? This is what we mean by courteous- and give an example of how an adult should be addressed." Note: there IS no standardized method of speaking to adults. It's all going to depend on the adult and the area. Don't think that because people don't says 'yes, sir' and 'no, sir' that they aren't being courteous. I prefer being addressed by my first name. That's how we address everyone at work, in my fraternity, and most other groups. I'm working with high school & college age youth, so have no issue with being addresses as such. If they aren't comfortable with that, its a non-issue with me. "But it seems here that the scouters are not in agreement as to what is the courtesy of speech." Because it depends on the area and the person, as we've pointed out. Again, THERE IS NO STANDARD!!! "it seems that you guys really got a problem with obedience." No we don't. We just don't think our scouts should be treated like inferior people or robots. It's you who has some misguiding concepts of 'obedience'. "I guess I really do have a problem with the idea of youth lead if the youth are in charge as to the theme, the standards of appropriate conduct, the interpretation of the scout law, etc.." They aren't. But we've found that when they have ideas of appropriate conduct, etc, they are usually HARDER then the adults. Go figure. As others have pointed out, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SCOUTING IS!!! You've created in your mind a fictional concept of what scouting is, and since the real thing doesn't match, you critise. That's a mistake. Since it seems you have NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE of Boy Scouting, or Venturing or anything else about scouting, you have little to stand on.

"So what are the numbers like know? Are there any trends? Have there been real comparative studies of the habits of boys joining organizations across the board- and why? Should BSA hire a Zogby to poll Americans to get some intelligence?" Actually, the BSA does do surveys, done by Harris Research. The most recent of these are actually on the National website. http://www.scouting.org/media/research.aspx Some of the recent ones have been: Values of Scouting (2007) Values of Americans: A study in Character & Ethics (2005) Volunteer Outcomes Study (2003) Summer Camp Outcomes Study (2001) A Year in the life of a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturer (1998) "My question is, after 4 or 5 years of cub scouting and a few years of Boy Scouting, how come so many scouts still have piss poor manners, don't want to wear the uniform, and bully kids?" And how many of the have poor manners? How many of them bully kids? I bet its a lot less then you think. Sadly, there will always be kids who just won't learn. Doesn't matter if is school, church or scouting, they aren't reachable. "Why dont scouts enforce manners and courtesies- especially since it is embedded in Scout law? Are yes mam and no sir odd old fashion conventions? Should scouts say excuse me to scoutmasters when they want their attention? How are the scout laws actually enforced- or are they not really laws- but more or less suggestions- ask Captain Jack Sparrow would say. Why are there no protocols for customs and courtesies for how scouts should speak and behave in relation to superiors and inferiors? And if the scoutmaster is not seen as a superior- what does that say about the pedagogy of this program?" There are a lot of problems in your thinking here. We don't have 'superiors and inferiors' in scouting. A scoutleader should be more like an older brother or an uncle, not a 'superior officer' or the like. As a scout leader I really don't care for 'yes sir' or 'no sir' nonsense. I am a brother scout, and so actually would prefer to be addressed by my first name (just as an aunt or uncle is). The Scout Law and Oath are NOT to be enforced in the way you think. We hold them out as a standard we want the kids to work toward, as B-P intended, but its not to be 'enforced' like a civil law. "If BSA could actually provide Americans with hard cold statistics and show results from scout training and experience- maybe they would be a persuasive voice in youth issues." Actually, we have. And every year we produce a report on Scouting for Congress. How about taking a look at what the OA just did last summer called "Arrowcorps5"? "I still think that the model of scouting is flawed because no one takes seriously the structure of rank and chain of command." There IS NO structure of rank or chain of command!! If you think that, you have NO IDEA what the model of scouting is. Have you bothered to even picked up B-P's own "Scouting of Boys" or "Principles of Scoutmastership"? "Boys need to have a structure of authority they can count on. They need to demonstrate obedience and a willingness to follow before they are capable of being leaders." You are looking for military training/leadership, which isn't what scouting is all about. You have a serious flawed concept of leadership. Most modern concepts of leadership reject the ideas of needing 'obedience' and 'authority structures' as necessary for becoming leadership. These ideas are NOT what are emphasis or even talked about in leadership concepts such as Situational Leadership, Servant Leadership and the like. And many organizations that emphasis leadership don't speak of that. I can say that Toastmasters, which also teaches leadership doesn't talk about such ideas, nor will you find that in church and civic groups.

"but can someone tell me where I can find out more about the "urban Scouting of the 70's"?" Get a hold of the literature from that time. All the Boy Scout manuals from the time were done in a puck green/yellow color style. In particular, look for the 8th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, the 6th edition of the Scoutmaster handbook, and some of the other, smaller, pamphlets of the time, in particular look for a small pamphlet entitled "Improved Scout Program" (#6525). Others are the "Cornerstone Guide" (#6533), which was the adult training guide, and "Patrol and Troop Leadership Handbook", which was the only thing for PL and other junior leaders to use.

"in fact there were no real training for a scoutmaster to attend then except reading the scoutmaster handbook and half the time learning right along with the boys which the film depicts rather well. "Yes today we have a total package of books and trainings for every scoutmaster that tells him everything he must do and exactly how to do it without him having to add anything of his own" Actually, I would disagree with this. There most certainly was training for the scoutmasters during this time period. Certainly by the 1930s, National was putting in place a multi-level series of training courses for scoutmasters, and putting in place the Scoutmaster's Key and Scouter's Training Award to encourage adults to get training. These courses were revamped and updated about every 10 years or so. Furthermore, National at the time was putting out a LOT of materials in print for the scout leader. There was a whole series of short, merit badge pamplet booklets in the Service Library on a wide range of topics. I sometimes think we are actually poor in literature compared to the 30s & 40s.

If you see items with numbers of the form xx-xxx, its a bin literature item, and must be ordered by your council. You will not see these items on scoutstuff, nor be able to order them them. The item must be ordered by your council. It may be its restricted and your council can't order it (maybe its something that can only be obtained when you go thru training). Ask why they can't order it.

"So, the military does it one way and the BSA does it another both are correct. What is the fuss?" The 'fuss' is that some don't understand that both are correct. They think that the military way is the only correct way, so obviously the BSA is doing it wrong and either make a big deal about it or change their flag patches. The BSA is not the military, and what the military decides to do has ZERO affect on us. I don't have a problem with how the military does their flag patches. I do have a problem with people thinking what the BSA is doing isn't correct (because of how the military does it) and makes a fuss about it. The whole 'discussion' is tiresome.

"heck I even said that the tan and green numbers were a mistake unless you make Blue and Gold Numbers for CS and Green and Gold numbers for Venturing." In the old days, cub scouts wore blue and gold numbers and Explorers wore brown and green numbers. (Explorer uniforms were green with brown trim, hence those colors).

He only deals with Navy & Marines.

"Parents are allowed at OA events but the experience will be richer for you if you are a member." That's not *quite* a correct statement. By and large, OA events are for OA members only. Parents (and other concerned adults) who feel they need to see the OA ceremonies due to some concern which was not satisfied by allowed them to review the written ceremonies books, are allowed to do so. But that's not the same as saying they are allowed to attend OA events. And they shouldn't treat this like being in attendence at a graduation or the like. That's not the reason for being there. (this topic has been discussed on other threads, so I encourage people to check those other threads and not start up a discussion on it here)

COR don't wear unit numbers, but if their units are all the same number, I won't make an issue of it. I would be more annoyed by a COR that wore red/green/blue loops, or some candy*ss combo of that.

Adding to skeptic's comments, I think its valuable to watch Lem and how he conducts himself as a scoutmaster. He's not a martinet or a dictator, he's never bellowing orders or the like. He works with the boys more like a favorite uncle and the like. He's not perfect (who is), but works to rectify things when he realizes his mistakes.

A good chunk of the movie is set before WWII. A little bit (the war games section) is set during WWII. The later part (court room stuff, Whitey as adult, 'Lem Simmons Day') is post-WWII. As others noted, the 'issues' you put forth just didn't exist back then. And frankly, if you are watching the movie just to nit-pick on stuff like that, you are MISSING OUT on the major message (or messages) of the movie. There is a more recent movies (Whitewater Summer for example you can use for that sort of thing. The BSA actually shows FMB at PTC for their movie night. Something to think about.

"Maybe if we as leaders and volunteers, could possibly submit articles and things." While that may seem like a great idea (I certainly like it), I know I've read somewhere that both Boys' Life and Scouting do NOT accept unsolicited articles. In other words, unless you've been asked to write an article, they won't look at anything just sent to them. As someone who collects old Boys's Life, Scouting, Exploring and Explorer Program Quarterly (they also had a Boy Scout and Cub Scout Program Quarterly as well) magazines, I feel that many of the issues from the 'old days' (30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s) where much richer in the amount of information in them. It seems todays issues are just too much flash and such, and not enough depth.

Its too bad they don't use Photoshop (or similiar) to fix the uniforming errors for BL, Scouting & the catalog. Its not like they don't do it already. I noticed some strange alterations to the Venturing uniforms in the catalog that is obviously a PS fix/addition to bring some things up to date. They could fix all the patches out of place, remove the sashes hanging off the belts, goofy shoulder loop nonsense. You would wonder how the people photographed would feel when they see their picture in BL or Scouting, but all their uniform errors corrected. Wonder if they would get the message? (but I guess I would be assuming the person doing the fixing does it right...)

I've seen them in Books A Million stores in my area.

"You might also consider Vector Training, if you can find a course in your council or one nearby." Vector Training is a training for Venturers and has not yet been released (hopefully after the first of the year). Its a 'train the trainer' type of course.

"I mean (I know that the divisions have been "reorganized," but...) that there is no CS, BS, Venturing or Varsity committees on this level, why should we in Sea Scouts be represented when the other programs are not? (that was a rhetorical question, BTW)." The thing is that AFAIK, there do still exist the national CB, BS and Venturing committees (AFAIK, Varsity never had their own national committee). But they are not at the level we see on the chart. They are at the next level (or maybe two down). And that's part of the problem with the chart. Its not deep enough to show all the committees. Which means that some people assume that because they do not see a national committee on the chart, it doesn't exist. And you are also correct that this chart is ONLY for the national volunteer committees. The national structure of the professionals is another chart. And the problem with that one is its only 2 levels deep and there is no explanation of what the various groups really do. So you look at that chart and have to scratch your head...

"I use ASM for Assistant Scoutmaster in normal conversation. Some purists around here go nuts so I used the SA code. Likely the same ones who will make sure you know that while you may have a Venture Patrol in your troop that there is no such thing as a Venture Crew only Venturing Crews. [diving for cover]" Why dive for cover? I'm a sticker for correct terms, but I prefer "ASM" for assistant scoutmaster. I don't use SA or NA for that matter (NA is Assistant Advisor in a Venturing Crew. Go figure) If you don't know the correct terms in scouting, check out the "Language of Scouting" here: http://www.scouting.org/Media/LOS.aspx Btw, they give ASM as the abbreviation for Assistant Scoutmaster: http://www.scouting.org/media/los/Abbreviations.aspx (National used to sell this as a little booklet).

It would be a good idea for you to invest in a copy of the Insignia Guide, if you don't already have one. It would really help you out in terms of placement. As to the Whitlin' Chip patch. This is not an National patch, and doesn't have a particular location. So the catch-all location would be the right pocket. Realize that only 1 patch can go on the right pocket (one of the reasons many patches intended for this location will have a button loop, to make it easier to swap out patches for this location), so if you put it there, can't put another patch on the pocket unless you remove it.