emb021

First off, most Lodge weekends should be a reasonable cost. About $20-25 or so. Ordeal candidates pay more, because there are additional costs associated with it. Most of the lodges I have been associated include the following ADDITIONAL fees for Ordeal candidates: * sash * flap * OA Handbook * OA dues for the coming year If people understood what they were getting for the higher amount, they shouldn't grumble.

"they are official BSA patches and only the one states Historic Trails on it and the other does not." The Insignia Guide does not list every patch made by every BSA council. The patches you received from the Transatlantic Council are the same type as any other historical trail, or camporee, or scout show or such patches. They go on the right pocket. "I think that any patches sould be ok" That's nice, but its not the way it works. The BSA is a uniformed organization, and from day one has specified what patches goes were. It's not so 'anything goes' as some think (or like). But its also not as rigid as something (or would like) either.

Here is the Fact Sheet on the OA: http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-512.aspx The OA has a website: http://www.oa-bsa.org/ There are no secrets in the OA. What we have is mystery. The mystery is supposed to be aimed at making it more appealing to the boys, not hiding information from the parents and other adults. The OA is Scouting Honor Society. It's intended to bring together those scouts who have best exemplified the principles of scouting, and have them do further service. A big part of the service they do is to their council camp. Several of a lodge's events will be about this. But most lodges now do a lot of community service. Indian Lore has long been a major part of the OA. But Indian Lore is not the purpose of the OA. Leadership is also a big part of the OA. The OA gives the chance to boys to be leaders beyond their troop, such as in their lodge or the chapters within the lodge. Some go further to be leaders in their section, region, and even nationally. The OA has further leadership development programs beyond NYLT and NYALE, such as LLD (Lodge Leadership Development) and NLS (National Leadership Seminar). The OA has sectional events that bring together the lodges within their section (usually about 8 lodges). There are also national events like NOAC (National OA Conference). And the OA has its own service programs at the high adventure bases like OA Trail Crew, Wilderness Voyage (Northern Tier) etc. You're best bet to get local information is from your lodge and its leadership. Get ahold of the Lodge Advisor (adult) or Lodge Chief (youth). The Lodge should send around election teams who are supposed to explain what the OA is, but if your troop doesn't have a OA Troop Representative, prehaps the lodge needs to send someone earlier to explain things.

As another re-enactor I'd have to echo the comments of Eagle92 & Liz about how we look at 'regalia' vs 'costume'. theater/movie/tv costumes are just that: costumes. They seldom work to achieve the accuracy that most in the re-enactor (and to a similiar degree pow-wow) world does. They are more interested in have it look accurate, then that it is made accuractly or with the correct materials, something that IS important to any good re-enactor/pow-wower. In fact, in my neck of the woods, most of the re-enactors are not enamored of efforts by tv/film groups to try to get us involved in their world. They typically want to take advantage of the hard work & effort we put into our outfits, but without any recompense. Too often we have wind up lend out our outfits or items, only to have them be returned, but damaged, or not returned. So we are not impressed with people who deal with 'costumes' in that way.

Typically, the permanent patrol leader works to keep the members of the patrol in contant and encourage everyone to complete their tickets.

"I believe that, per the National reorganization in October, Sea Scouting is no longer part of Venturing but is a separate program." Sea Scouting is STILL part of Venturing. It's not a separate program on its own. Go to the National website. You see only Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturing listed. Sea Scouts you will find within the Venturing area. The idea that Sea Scouts are no longer part of Venturing is a misunderstanding due to the national re-org. National got rid of all the Program Divisions, then re-did the related national committees of volunteers. The Sea Scout committee is now the "Sea Scout Support Committee" under the "outdoor adventures committee". The members of the National Venturing Committee have been pulled into another committee, but don't know which.

"By the way, does anyone know the present 5 groupings in Venturing?" The 5 groupings are what they have always been, each with their own Bronze Award: * Outdoors * Arts/Hobbies * Religious Life (aka Youth Ministries) * Sports * Sea Scouts

"1) The Advancement person asked when did it change (not having to be registered in a troop to earn Eagle)? Was this ever a requirement? " Since the 1930s, Scouts could earn Eagle in senior scouting units (Explorer Scout Posts, Air Scout Squadrons, Sea Scout Ships) and even had alternate paths to Eagle that did not require them to have EVER been in a Scout Troop. Get a copy of the "Advancement Guidelines" book. It should make it clear youth can earn Eagle in Crews. This is also covered in the "Venturer Handbook". Since Venturing POR are acceptable for Eagle, it should be clear they don't need to be in a troop.

"Why not just look on your council's web site? " "Most councils have an employee, or contact, list on their site." That's fine if you are looking for the council employees, however, if you are trying to understand who are the volunteers in the different district/council roles, that may be difficult. Further, if you don't understand the overall structure (professional staff, commissioner service, district/council committees), that won't help, either.

"But technically, in the boy scouts of america, once you are 18 you are an adult." Not so. In the OA AND in Venturing, you are still consider a youth until 21. The 18-21 period has long been a gray area in our society. You can vote and join the army at 18, but can't drink until 21. In the BSA, only certain positions are available to the 18-21 year old.

"Wouldn't that also apply to members of the unit committee between ages 18 and 21?" Actually, you can't be between the ages of 18 and 21 and be a member of the unit committee. Minimum age for unit committee membership is 21. In fact, there are very few positions in the BSA open to those between the ages of 18 and 21: * Venturer * Assistant Scoutmaster or Assistant Varsity Team Coach * uncertain of which Pack/Den positions are open to the 18-21 year old, and they would only be for assistant positions. working for council/camp is one thing, but pretty much all volunteer positions in the council/district require you to be 21.

I would agree with Eagle92 that if the main reason is membership boosting, that's a poor reason. As noted, the right reason to open up the OA to Venturers (male and female) would be to recognize those who hold to the values of scouting & the OA. Yes, there will be those opposed to the OA going co-ed. Don't be surprised if it more then just certain 'old guard' types. A recent thread on this topic on facebook gave some 'interesting' responses from younger types. One felt that having girls in the OA somehow 'undermines the principles of the OA' (not sure how) as well as it being a 'step toward decay'. A request for an explanation of this didn't get too far. go figure.

There are many options for travel. It all depends on what works for you, size of group, cost, etc. I would say shake down hikes are a must. One is to ensure you are just taking what you need. Even if you do the hikes as a day hike (with full packs), do so. 2-3 seem a reason number. Try to aim for hikes as long as the ones you'll do at Philmont. If there are hilly trails in your area, try to do those vs flat land. Hmmm. Sounds like your adults understand backpacking, but the kids don't. Use those hikes to make sure the kids understand what's going to happen. Everything you need will be in the pack, and you're not coming back to base camp until the trip is done. Give them some experience with stoves and cooking. Also the use of bear bags. Philmont usually send info in advance to help. THere is also a crew they sells a good ($10) guidebook to help prepare.

"There has been a rumor going around in my council that the OA is considering opening membership to all Venturers as well. What emb21 posted is the current policy for the OA. The story I hear is that National is concerned about the growing decline in membership in many OA lodges and that making the OA a "scouting camping and service group" instead of a "boy scout" group might revitalize it, again this is just an unsubstantiated rumor but it would have some interesting conotations. Imagine inducting female Venturers as well as Venturing adult leaders into the fold, it might bring some new life into those chapters struggling to stay afloat. Personally I think the idea has some merit. especially when I see our councils lodge about to go under for the third time in three years. I would be interested to hear what others here think." Interesting. I know there are many in the OA and Venturing worlds that have wanted the OA to open its doors to female Venturers. Any attempt to consider this, even at the national level was blocked because the OA was part of the Boy Scout Program Division. With the demise of the BSPD, I've wondered if there might be a chance in this with the OA. As to the OA being a "scouting camping and service group" vs. a "boy scout" group, some comments. The OA was NEVER specifically a 'boy scout' group. During the 30s and 40s, it more or less fell under the Senior Scouting division, along with Explorer Scouting, Sea Scouting, etc. For many years, Explorers could be elected into the OA without having earned First Class. During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, the National OA Committee was under the National Camping Committee (this is why the OA Lodge and Chapter Advisors are part of the council & district camping committeess...). It wasn't until 1975 that the OA was moved under the Boy Scout Committee. When I joined it in the 80s, the OA was said to be a "honor camper society", not a 'boy scout society'. In recent years it has shifted to being more of a honor/service organization. It's now touted as "Scouting's Honor Society". NOT a "Boy Scout Honor Society", but "Scouting's Honor Society". There are some who don't like the fact that the OA turns away female venturers. Are not venturers (male and female) part of Scouting??? But, we'll see if this is true. Personally, with the recent re-org at National, I can't see them making such a radical change so soon after.

"What was requiered for "National Recognition" I would believe it may be similar to today's Cenntennial Quality Unit award." Nope. Sea Scout Ships had local, regional, national flagship recognitions going back to the 1930s. This concept was later expanded to other senior programs later one. Later, this concept was brought over to scout troops, first with the president's honor troops, which ran for 4-5 years, then Honor Unit, which later became Quality units. Recognition was mainly in the form of patches on the sleeve, as well as ribbons and plaques later on.

"Is it also true that venturers can be part of the OA?" Yes and no. The Venturer would have to have joined the OA while a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout (youth elections are ONLY done in those 2 units). Once you're in the OA, you mearly have to maintain your BSA registration in SOME BSA program, whether its in a Cub Scout Pack (adults only here), Troop, Team, Crew or Ship. "I might of heard some rumors about men and women from a venture crew in the OA as youth?" The term is "Venturing Crew", NOT "venture crew". Only male Venturers who had joined the OA while a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout would be in the OA. Female Venturer can't be in the OA because they can't met the youth joining requirements (First Class and 20 days/nights of camping) and elections are not done in Venturing Crews.

There were a few national program emphasis things done back then. Most likely this tied in with it. No idea if there were certain requirements to achieve to get the ribbon (most likely there were).

Mostly when we speak of 'boy scout camping', it means camping under the auspises of the BSA: ie, its with the troop or some BSA group. Camping with your family, friends, other groups, doesn't count. What you define as 'camping' is another matter. Under canvas or out in the open I would view as camping. Using a cabin isn't that much different then going to a hotel room (or using an RV), and I really don't think of it as camping. But its up to the Scoutmaster (not the lodge) to determine if the candiate has met the requirements. If the SM views cabin camping as ok, then its ok. End of story.

Eagle92 is correct. The booklet you need to have in your pack to answer these questions is the "Insignia Guide". You can buy a copy in your scout shop, and its now on-line: http://www.scouting.org/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx This page shows the placement of the QU patch on the cub scout uniform sleeve: http://www.scouting.org/media/insigniaguide/05.aspx Quality unit patches have ALWAYS been worn on the sleeve for several decades. Has your Pack never received one?

Hmmm. In the councils I've worked with, overbooking of the calender has never been a problem. Most events occur every year at about the same time. Heck, for some of the major events, once one is done, they are usually already getting out info (including the date) for the next year's event. In one council I am in, they have a rule about no council/district event occuring closer then 2 weeks away. We also ramped down the number of events as well.

"I think the Cub Scout program very much ties to Boy Scouts, to get the highest Cub Award you study Boy Scouting, to get the Boy Scout highest award, you do not study Venturing. Now, if that were to change..." The Cub Scout program doesn't have such ties. Its not the aim of Tiger Cubs, Wolf Cubs, or Bear Cubs to necessarily become Boy Scouts. Webelos is a more recently addition to Cub Scouts that WAS created to bridge the gap and prepare Cub Scouts for Boy Scouts. In fact, in the time I was involved in Webelos, its become more of a bridge program then it used to be, what with Webelos allowed to wear the Boy Scout tan uniform, use patrol medallions, etc.

FWIW. Eagle Scout has been around since 1911. Quartermaster has been around since 1925 or so. Venturing Silver has been around since 1998. High awards of the past include: Explorer Scout Ranger from 1944 to 1949 Explorer Silver from 1949 to 1959 Air Scout/Air Explorer Ace from 1942 to 1954 Air Explorer Silver from 1955 to 1964 Explorer Achievement Award from 1981 to 1995 Explorer G.O.L.D. Award from 1995 to 1998

"One of the reasons there is no clear cut path from Boy Scouts to Venturing is because inherently they are two separate programs." Well, yes, they are separate programs. But then, so is Cub Scouts. Boy Scouts do NOT build off Cub Scouts. They are separate and unique programs. But if we work to move Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts (mainly thru the Webelos programs, and building ceremonies), why not from Boy Scouts to Venturing. After all, the posters for Venturing says its "Scoutings Next Step"...

"By effectively cutting off Boy Scouts at 14 (or 15, or 16) we are saying "Mission Accomplished" before the real tests of character (and the opportunities for learning) that one faces in high school. How well is that likely to pan out in the long run?" Not sure where you got that idea. It's certainly not my idea that is 'mission accomplished' when the boy reaches 14 and boy scouting is 'over', and more then I think it should be viewed as 'mission accomplished' when a boy earns Eagle, or ages out of Boy Scouts at 18. The idea of ending boy scouts at 14 is to get the boy to move on to the next program section. No different then when we end Cub Scouts at 10 or 11 and move them into Boy Scouts. And that's part of the problem. We have a clear cut transition, bridging, from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. But NOTHING for Boy Scouts bridge to Venturing. Or from Boy Scouts/Venturing to adult leadership. Something I've seen in other programs is that they have a clear cut ceremony and award to encourage the youth to move from one section to another. "In the process of making Eagle a middle school accomlishment we are diluting the Eagle Scout brand. If the damage to our flagship brand becomes irreversible, we will lose our relevance as an organization." No. Its the typical mis inflation of Eagle Scout as being the 'top' and sole accomplishement of scouting, when its really not. That overlooks the fact that the Boy Scout program, including Eagle Scout, was written to the reading/ability level of middle schoolers. It overlooks the fact that Venturing & Sea Scouting (and its awards) were written to the high school level youth. Should Venturing Silver and Sea Scout Quatermaster be 'diluted' and overlooked in favor of the all mighty Eagle Scout? (or for that matter, the high awards of the past such as Explorer Scout Ranger and Air Scout Ace?) Eagle Scout is important. But its importance should not be at the expense of the rest of the scouting programs.

"Many of the countries involved have very few or no professional staff other than a national director. They are almost all volunteer. So we are not taklking about the BSA stats, we are talking about the stats from the other countries." You have to take a look at the whole picture to get a good idea of what's going on in that countries program. For instance, when at the World Jamboree visiting the Philippines scout booth, I was talking a look at a poster they had listing their membership numbers over the years. They should very high numbers until one year (sometime in the 90s I think), they suddenly droped by a HUGH percentage. (loosing 2/3rds or so). I asked 'what happened'? Well, what happened is that up to that point, membership in Scoutings almost manditory in most schools. In that year, that changed, with scouting being optional. So the hugh number dropped. As pointed out, the BSA has a larger professional staff. In other countries, they look a bit askance at that, but we do have a larger membership. Is that the result of it? But there are other differences, such as the demographics of our adult volunteers, etc. You can't just pick one thing and say that's the cause of higher/lower numbers. I think there are a lot of factors (promotion, program, etc)