Eamonn

This sounds like it's just my cup of tea! Ea.

Camp Conestoga in Bakersville PA (Not far from the PA Turnpike) Near Somerset PA. In the Laural Highlands State Park, operated by Westmoreland Fayette Council. Phone 724-837-1630 Eamonn

While I agree with my pal from down-under (Great to have you back!!) I kinda think that when looking at success we need to what we are looking at. I can look back at the 17th Fulham (Pioneers) and hark back to how great it once was, all the great kids and great adults. I can talk about the long history it had. But it's not there any more. I can look at the Troop OJ was in,at that time one of the best in our area with about 40 Scouts and a wonderful leadership team. But the SM moved on and the Troop went into a decline. Now it has about 8 Scouts who are all Life Scouts. I feel once they make Eagle the Troop will fold. I can look at a Troop that only started about seven or eight years back, seem to do everything by the book, the SM is moving on and the transition seems to be going ahead with little or no change to the youth that are in the Troop. Just about every Troop goes through Peaks and Valleys. I can't help thinking the mark of a successful troop lies not in what it has done in the past but what it will do in the future. Eamonn.

I have a great hike that gets you all around London without ever using a street or a road. Kinda long way from New York! Eamonn

No Brent, to tell the truth I wasn't even thinking about you! I was and am upset that any adult would pick on a youth member and not allow him to fully participate in the program just because he wasn't wearing a uniform, or would hand out treats to only those who are in uniform. A long time back Doug McPhee, was a PL in the Troop which I served. Doug was a great kid, but had a very quick temper and was very competitive. I'm not sure if both his parents being from Scotland played any part in the fact that he loved to fight? He "Ruled" his Patrol, with a leadership style that Attila the Hun would have been proud of. Of course I was aware of this and kept a special eye on him. I think that maybe into days enlightened way of doing things maybe he would be a candidate for anger management classes. As I posted I'm 101% for us having uniform as a method of Scouting. I just can't see how a unit can penalize a Scout for not having or not wearing a uniform as long as the uniform is not a requirement for membership. It just doesn't make any sense! Do we want the Scout we serve to wear the uniform? Yes we do. But the big part of what we do is having Scouts do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. This works along the lines of making ethical choices /decisions. When we tell a Scout that he has to wear a uniform (Which isn't required for membership) or he can't fully participate, we are in fact taking away any choice that he has. He is no longer doing the right or ethical thing to do he is following orders. My kid (OJ) always had full correct uniforms. When he was chauffeured to and from the meetings, he wore full uniform. I think because he knew that I would be on his case if he didn't. (Even though the Troop had a Shirt only requirement.) This changed once he started driving himself. The Scout shirt was thrown in the back of the car and that was how he went. About the same time he became deeply involved in the OA,serving as an officer at the local and sectional level. For OA events he alway wore a full uniform that was pressed and neat, going so far as to having me buy the more expensive wool uniform. No one in the OA made any threats or even made a big deal about uniform. So what changed? Same kid, same family? I think what changed from the Troop to the OA was the environment. He for some reason seen that him being in full uniform for OA events was important to him. He seen it as being the right thing to do. As I see it the uniform method is about us the adults finding and creating such an environment, while not resorting to threats or not allowing full participation. This talk about "Troop Requirements" is all well and good, but is it really doing anything that helps the youth we serve make ethical choices? Or is the choice: Follow the rule or else? Eamonn.

Uniform is a method of Scouting. I'm 101% for it. How we go about getting to where we want to be is the $64,000 question. I find the idea of leaving a Lad out of something or him not participating with the rest of the Troop really repulsive. It is not in keeping with being kind and to my way of thinking is just plain wrong. As adults it is up to us to help create an environment where Scouts want to wear the uniform. Peer pressure can be used, but needs to be watched very carefully. When it reaches a "I'm going to whack you because you let the Patrol down!" Clearly the Lad making the statement needs help with making ethical choices. As we all know uniform is not required for membership and making it a requirement for a BOR or a SM conference would seem to follow this, that is if it's not required how the heck can we make it a requirement? Ea.

Not sure how to go about numbering my selections? But near the top if not number one would be how well the adults get along together and work as a team. (As long as they are delivering the program!) Eamonn.

Hi and Welcome, It sounds like you have been plugging away at this youth led thing for a while. Much as many of us would like it, sadly there is no Leadership Fairy Godmother. It is not going to happen just because we want it to happen. Kinda like wanting to get rich. We work hard, save as much as we can and then something comes along and we seem to be back where we started. A few pointers (For what they might be worth.) * Don't give up. It really is worth the effort. Even if you never arrive at where you think you might want to be, the journey is worth the effort. *Don't waste time beating yourself up when you don't see the results. Beating yourself up is never a good idea and could lead to you burning yourself out. * If you have taken the BSA training's? See if you can get hold of some of the material and go over it again. If you haven't taken the trainings? Try and make time to get there. * Hold people accountable. You say that the PLC is coming forward with ideas. This is wonderful. Many of us have sat through PLC meetings where the Scouts have that "Deer caught in the headlights" look. When they say what they want. Have them write down who is going to do what. The Ship wanted to do a fund raiser. They (With some prompting from me) came up with having a hoagie sale. The Boatswain called the borough and came up with a date that worked. He then asked someone to be the "Project Leader". The project leader broke what needed to be done into bite sized chunks. One person was responsible for phoning the hoagie company and ordering the hoagies and accepting the delivery. This also entailed finding out how many Scouts would be selling them and making an order sheet. One person was responsible for making signs and getting the word out. Contacting the local newspaper and that sort of thing. The Boatswain was responsible for selling the idea of why we needed a sale to the rest of the Ship. The Quarterdeck was in charge of what the money raised would be used for. As Skipper I kept in contact with the Boatswain, asking what was being done? Asking if he had checked? Pushing him to make sure what was to be done was being done. After the sale we met and looked at what worked and what didn't. Was having a sale the day before Mothers Day such a great idea? Could we have maybe made the hoagies ourselves? What might this entail? Do we have the people and a place to take this on? Of course after the sale we went out of our way to ensure that the people who did a good job were thanked and recognized. * Be ready for "Just Because"! Just because it hasn't worked in the past is no reason to think that it isn't going to work this time and just because it did work is no reason to think it will work. Youth leaders come and go, even the youth we have get involved in different things. That great hard working Scout who never messed up takes on more than he can manage and even though he says he is going to do something, somehow gets overwhelmed with doing too much. This boils down to you knowing the Scouts. * Use the PLC. The Scouts have an idea of what they want to do, but don't have the skills to get it done. Rather than training the entire Troop (Ship) Train the youth leaders in the skill and have them pass it on. PLC meetings can be a lot more fun if the Scouts are doing something and not just sitting around your kitchen table. * Train the adults. When a Scouts asks an ASM something (Almost anything!!) The correct answer is always "Have you asked your PL?". Establish what might be seen as a chain of command (Even though it's not!) A Scout goes to his PL the PL goes to the SPL and the SPL goes to an adult leader. * Remember "Adults are perfect, Scouts are human" Sure if a group of adults take on a project, chance are that they will do a perfect job. Scouts on the other hand, have a good chance of messing up! But at the end of the day we are in the business of taring youth not having every thing go perfectly. * Make use of reflections. Involving everyone or at times just the youth leaders to examine what happened, without pointing fingers or fixing blame in a very safe way (No put downs.) Can allow everyone the opportunity to see how everyone plays a part in making things work or at times not work. * Have fun. Keep in mind that a Scout is cheerful. Our youth members are not little adults, they don't always see things as we do and are still learning. Enjoy the time you get to spend with them, enjoy watching them grow and develop. Laugh with them (Never at them) when things don't go as well as maybe they could or should have. We all learn from our mistakes. Eamonn.

I'm wondering why the adults felt the need to go? Maybe they all got new hiking stuff from Santa? Someone needs to have a chat with the SM. I'm thinking maybe your son with maybe some support from you. It would be great if before the meeting if the Venture Patrol got together and had a written plan of an activity that was adult free. (Maybe allowing adults to drop them off and pick them up. Hit the SM with the plan, menu and as much preplanned stuff as they can think of. Maybe a nice Mom might give the plan a quick look over if it happened to be left out? If your son explains the frustration that he is feeling, I would hope that the SM would be willing to take on the battle with his ASM's (The Venture Patrol is part of the Troop.) If the SM is unwilling to allow the activity? I think it is something that the Troop Committee needs to look at and be aware of. The down side of course is that the "Needy Parents" are not going to let go and very well might not allow their son's to attend. Worse case scenario being that there just isn't enough participation or the activity to happen. This might be a good time to take a look at the Crews in your area and talking to the youth in these Crews to see what they are doing and how they do it. Eamonn.

I really would hope that we never use the word punishment. As I see it, we are about trying to help young people do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do. Not because they fear being punished. This shirt thing is only a big deal because someone made it into one. I can't help thinking that if I were this young Lad (Don't I wish!!) I'd be doing just what he is doing. That is sending a message. I kinda think that if I were him and people got onto me about not wearing the uniform, my next line of thinking would be "Hey if they don't want me as I am? I'm out of here!" The leaders in some Troops might think that they can do without a kid like this? I'd argue that any good stuff we might ever be able to help him do leaves when he leaves. Eamonn

Back when I was a CM, I managed to get the Pack Committee to agree to pay for all adult leader trainings, that would benefit the pack. This worked great until I was chosen as a Course Director and five adult leaders from the Pack signed up. Needless to say the pack budget couldn't manage all that. I'm not sure what the pack did in the end to accommodate all of these. We did manage to get some money for one of them, as they were a husband and wife team with four boys in the pack. Ea.

I admit to not knowing if this has or has not ever happened. My gut feeling is that it is highly un-lightly. Ea.

While of course it is very important you do nominate someone.(I think it's a shame so many good people don't receive awards because no one sends in the forms.) Having sat on the selection committee for this award a lot of times. I don't feel that the write up is that very important. I say this because it's the District Award of Merit and in all likelihood the people who sit on the selection committee already know the person and what he or she has done for the and in the District. Very often unit Scouter's will nominate someone from their unit. This person may have done wonderful things for the unit, but never have served the District. While it can be argued that by serving the unit he or she is serving the District, more often than not the selection committee will not see it that way. I think a few lines just outlining what the person has done for the District, and what other organizations he or she might belong too (Church, service organizations and the like) I have never received letters of recommendation from other Scouter's in support of the District Award of Merit (I have for the Silver Beaver.)When others feel the need to support this award they normally just send in the nomination form. Eamonn

Brent, No, I think I knew where I was! Having not done any nasty stuff in a few days! The point I was trying to make and a very big hang-up of mine ! Is that just because I choose to wear a BSA uniform, it by no means makes me into some kind of an angel. I feel the same way about the youth we serve. Last time I checked there were no holes in the back of the BSA shirt for the wings. Being a Scouter is just one part of who I am. I'm also a lot more. Sure I like to crow about the good stuff. Man Oh Man! I wish I was that light on the hill. But I'm not perfect. While by no means an anarchist. I do think that there can be exceptions for just about any rule. I'm very willing in fact more than willing to do my very best to be a good example to the youth I know. In a perfect world we all would make plans that would ensure that nothing bad ever happens and we would avoid bad situations. But it's not a perfect world. A couple of years back the Ship went to a Winter Training weekend in Maryland. We ended up staying in a Scout hut a little way from the main event. There was a very old TV in the hut. One of the Sea Scouts had his portable DVD player and asked if he could play it through the TV set. He was our Boatswain. I gave the OK. I went away to attend a Skippers meeting, when I returned the DVD was hooked up to the TV, the Scouts were all in their cots watching a Robin Williams HBO special!! The material was not suitable for Scouting. I looked at my options. In the end I let it play. I really didn't want to make the Boatswain look bad in front of all the rest of the ship and if the truth be known I thought it was very funny. The next day I had a chat with the Lad, explaining why this sort of thing wasn't really a good idea. He apologized and he met with the parents of the Scouts who had attended to let them know what had happened. (Thankfully no one was upset!) At the next Quarterdeck meeting we talked about what sort of movies we would show. Clearly I messed up by not asking what he was going to show. Some would say I should have not allowed the DVD to continue once I became aware what it was. I feel we all learned a lot more by me allowing it to be played and I didn't show the Boatswain up. Had it been a movie with nudity or the like, I would of course have had to stop it. I have been at a wedding when I received a phone call from our local Boy Scout Camp. The Camp-master had been taken to the hospital and the unit in the building was ready to leave. I had drunk a couple of beers (Really only a couple!!) I explained that I really didn't want to leave the wedding, but in the end HWMBO drove me to the site. I explained to the SM in charge where I'd been and how I had not planned on being at the camp. While I'm sure he was aware that I'd been drinking, (The fact I was in a suit might also have been a bit of a give away?) He was fine and more worried about getting out of camp than about me. The next day I sent an e-mail to the then SE explaining what had happened and why I'd gone to a BSA camp smelling of beer. Not that I thought I'd done anything wrong, but just in case anyone wanted to make something of it. Needles to say HWMBO was none to happy and I didn't get to dance with her that night when we returned to the wedding. Ea.

Could it be that we serve ourselves? Some of us have been Scouts and Scouting since we were youth members and for some reason have remained in. While I could maybe cite some great high and mighty reasons why I'm still around, I think the main reason is that I enjoy myself and the people (Youth and adult) who are also in. Others joined when their son joined. Many joined a unit where their son had friends. At the time of joining little or no thought was given to the CO. In fact a lot of people joined Scouts not knowing about the ties to the CO. A large number (No I don't know how many!) of volunteers, at least the volunteers I talk with have very low expectations or maybe just don't understand the relationship that is supposed to be there between the CO and the scouting unit. Of course many CO's also fail to understand the same thing. The end result being that we are left with a feeling of "Us and Them". Some volunteers see the CO as some kind of necessity that at times needs to be worked around or through and any real idea of us (Scouting volunteers) serving them in a partnership that serves the youth that they want to serve is just not there. (I know of course that the next ten postings will tell about the great CO's that some do have!!) Most of the adults I know are happy to serve the ideals of Scouting. We like and believe in the values of what we are trying to do. We want to do a good job of providing a program that will hold the interest of the youth that do join. To this end we toddle off to the trainings, read all the literature, wait by our mail-boxes for the next Scouting magazine. A good number will, once they have amassed all this information, make a decision what parts they will keep and use and what parts they are going to discard or ignore. Often this decision will be made by the adults in a unit. I'm thinking about the "We don't do it that way!" or the "It just is never going to work!" Right now I'm looking at the changes being made to Commissioner Service and I have without even seeing how it might work? Made up my mind that it is doomed for failure. I know units that seem happy to pick and choose which of the methods of Scouting they are going to use and which they are going to ignore. With this kind of mindset can be really say that we are serving the organization? With some of the wrong doings and the shenanigans that some Councils were caught doing a few years back along with what seems to me to be the break down in unit service. I know I'm now a lot more skeptical and don't trust the people at the top who are supposed to serve us. I'm very aware that things are tough. I know that Districts and Councils seem to be having a hard time filling the spots that would result in more, better or even some unit service! This has placed a very big burden on the professional and the District volunteers. Still, I think it's sad when over half the pages in our bi-monthly Council paper are given over to pop-corn and FOS. More and more of the volunteers I talk with now think that the units are there to support the Council and not seeing very much happening to support them. With so much confusion and no one being really sure who they really do serve many of the units I see in the area where I live have groups of adults who as a group decide what they are going to do (And not do). They end up serving each other with the goal of providing the youth with the program that they feel is best. I'm not saying that they do a bad job. In fact many do a wonderful job. The sad thing is all to often this group is so very close that when one or two members for whatever reason leaves the group the entire team breaks down and the unit folds. Which results in no one being served. Eamonn

Not wanting to take anything away from what was being said in the original thread. Which I seen as something along the lines of "What to do with CO's who behave badly" (My take.) For a little while now, I no longer use the "My" Word. Tending to use the "Serve" Word. Kinda made sense to me when I first started using it. After all I didn't own the Unit, the youth weren't mine and I really had no ownership in it. Now I'm asking "Who do we serve?" I have heard people say that we serve the youth. (The Boys). I do like the sound of that. I'm just not so sure about it. Youth members will come and go, some will be around for a fair amount of time, while others will just pass through. Chances are one day if there are not enough youth the unit is going to not be there anymore. In the "Real World" I serve my boss; in my case the State. I knew what my job would be and what was expected from me, how much I was going to earn and all that good stuff before I went for the interview and was selected. If as Unit Leaders we are selected by the CO? Don't we really serve them? The youth in the program are in fact their youth and the CO has opted to use the programs of the BSA to serve the youth that it serves. While of course Council and District Scouts might be looked upon as serving the Council do unit leaders owe the CO their loyalty, their obediences? They after all were selected to serve by the CO. So who do you serve? Eamonn

Kinda think that at any minute I'm going to be tossed out on my ear!! My list of intolerable behaviors: I enjoy adult beverages. I don't drink and drive (Now days not even one drink!!) I don't drink at Scout functions or on property owned by the BSA. Some Scouts have come to my home at meal times,during dinner when wine was on the table and I have been drinking it. I have made a living from selling alcohol. I owned and operated a couple of Bar/ Restaurants for almost 20 years and never knowingly sold booze to anyone underage. Never sold alcohol to anyone who was visible impaired. I have been known to use very bad words. (Bad Language) Sometimes when I'm mad or upset (Yes I remember getting lost in Washington D.C with a car load of Sea Scouts and repeating three times "Oh S!@&") The Scouts thought it was very funny as they never had heard me use language like that or lose my cool.) Sometimes at work I do use bad words or swear words as a means of communication with the inmates. I never swear at them but this is a language that they understand and can relate too. There are some bad words that I would never in a thousand years use. I do smoke. I try not to smoke around young people and anyone that might get upset by my smoking. My biggest challenge is when I'm driving Scouts a long distance. I don't smoke in my car, but will smoke at rest stops. I do not smoke near or close to the youth members, but they seem to have a way of finding me. I have during my time on the planet looked at and read adult magazines. (I seem to have out-grown them about twenty years ago.) I have never shown or wanted to show a Scout any material like this. Years back, in the Troop we did have a few Scouts who did sneak what today might be seen as adult magazines into camp. We asked the Scouts to leave them in the Scout van and if they wanted the magazines returned to their parents. (Only one Scout ever did!!) I suppose I could list a lot more of the things I do that might result in my getting tossed out. I have a bad back. Which at times can make being Physically Strong very difficult. As I get older I don't think I'm anywhere near as mentally awake as I used to be. I have missed Mass a few times, so maybe I'm not doing my duty to God. I left England about twenty-five years back. So maybe me doing my duty to my country is in question? I'm not always the easiest of people to get along with and can at times be very stubborn and selfish. Looking at this list of my failings, I'm glad that I haven't invested anything into buying a new uniform! I'm very aware that I'm not perfect. But as to the question: "What is / is not tolerable behavior in a leader?" Someone once said about pornography that they couldn't define it but knew it when they seen it. I have messed up a lot over the years. I hope I have learned from my mistakes. I hope I would never knowingly do anything that would place anyone in harms way. While maybe the idea that Scouts and Scouting being a safe haven where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit is not in use anymore? I still like the idea. I would think that anyone who intentionally does anything that would harm others especially a youth member, would need to take a long hard look at themselves and question if this is the right organization for them? I would also hope that when people do mess up we, where possible (I know some thing's are just so wrong that second chances are just not right.) We find the right time and place to tell them and let them know that this sort of behavior is just not acceptable. Eamonn.

OGE, I have heard many forms of the "What Harm?" argument. First it is the job of the person in charge to fill all positions. As a rule this means passing the buck. The Council President will pass it on down to a Vice President. People who wear many hats do prevent others the opportunity to serve. In the case of the SM. He should make a choice about what he wants to do. - Where he wants to serve? Does he want to allow someone else the chance to be SM? Or the opportunity to be Training Chair? Finding quality people to fill positions is up to the Key 3 or maybe a committee. A big draw back when someone fills more than one position is when they quit. All too often they have failed to train anyone to fill one spot let alone more than one. I really do not believe that in a area the size of a Council that one person can't be found who is able to fill the spots that need filled. All too often it's just a case of someone just asking someone who is there to fill the spot without really looking into who else is available? Or who could be trained to fill the spot. Ea.

Double Posting. Ea(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

OldGreyEagle This would never be allowed in the Council I serve. No unit leader is allowed to hold a Council Chair. Position. When our DAC was unable to meet with Eagle Scouts who needed project approval, I stood in for him. To be very honest I really see no difference with a Scout meeting with a person who has been trained in this position. That is to say has a real understanding of what the requirements are and is "Scout-Friendly" and has half a brain!! Or a Lad meeting with a Merit Badge Counselor. We are talking about a Leadership Project. Leadership involves communication and being able to communicate with others. While most Scouts I know might be a little too polite when talking with an adult to tell him /her that he or she is wrong. Most do know what the requirements state (They have read them!!) Scouts of "Eagle Age" (Whatever that might be?? - I'm going with 16 give or take a year.) Have a very strong sense of justice -What is right and what is wrong. They might remain silent, when dealing with an adult who is wrong, but will be very vocal when they get the opportunity to discuss what happened at the meeting with their SM. I see the conversation going something like this. SM:"Hey John how did you get on with your meeting about your Eagle Project?" Scout: "Not bad; but the guys says my project has to involve at least 250 hours of work!. The Eagle Project Book doesn't say that. My project isn't that long." SM: "John, let me make a call and I'll get back to you." The SM calls the DAC informs him of what went on. The DAC sees that he has a problem with his staff and fixes it. If the problem isn't fixed, he calls his COR and explains the situation. The COR attends the District Committee meeting, voices his displeasure that the District is not following the BSA guidelines. The District Key 3 hate to hear from unhappy COR's. They don't like having complaints recorded in the minutes of their meeting!! (I know!!) They will take steps to ensure that things go the way they are supposed to go. But if they don't? The COR calls the Council Training Chair and explains the situation. He informs him that he is very unhappy and has plans to bring this matter up at the Council Annual Meeting. If the threat of that doesn't have everyone shaking in their boots? The best thing to do is move to China!! Having adults pussyfoot around things that are not being done right and preventing Scouts from receiving the life lessons that we can provide really serves no one in any good way. We have systems in place to fix things. But they only work if we allow them to work. I for one would love to see more COR's given real work to do and be given the opportunity to get involved and see what is really happening. I still fail to see the need for any adult to do something that just about any normal Scout can do for himself. If the District is not doing something right? Sure adults need to fix what isn't working. Don't take away leadership from the Scout. Eamonn. PS Thanks for explaining what "SM has so many balls to juggle, keeping up with ever changing district expectations" Meant!! Clearly I took it to mean something else.

I really think you need to ask the people in your Council. If the new course isn't ready? What are your options? Present the old course? Don't present anything? Postpone the Training? Where would I go for the "What to do answer"? I'd call the Council Training Chairman. (Some of them are really nice guys!!) Ea.

"SM has so many balls to juggle, keeping up with ever changing district expectations"???? Having been one of "Them, There, District Types" I'm having a hard time thinking of what expectations a District can place on a Scoutmaster? Yes, I'll own up to doing a little arm twisting to ensure that the unit invited the FOS guy to come in and do his bit. Yes, I pushed for each and every unit to get rechartered on time. I pushed Training and Wood Badge. (I however still believe that those who will always will and those who refuse will never attend.) Camporees and the like should be good fun. Maybe they help provide some sort of program for the Troops who need it, but if a Troop said it was busy doing something else. I was happy that they were not allowing the District to interfere with their unit program. Other than this I'm left wondering what these "Ever changing district expectations" Might be? Ea.

Two of my best pals are both Life Scouts. One can't swim very well. He served as my mentor for Wood Badge. He has a wonderful understanding and grasp for how Scouts and Scouting should work along with a real understanding for how the BSA is organized. The other is our Council Program Director. Back in 1977 he was new to professional scouting and as a DE got stuck with looking after me when I first arrived in the USA. My second night in the USA was spent on his couch. This fellow has a great way of really putting the outing into Scouting. Other than a few years working in New Jersey, he has served the Council I serve for all this time. While both of these guys are overjoyed when a Scout does make Eagle, I don't think they really regret having not made it. I have to admit that at times I get a little fed up when people ask me if I'm an Eagle Scout and I try to explain that I'm not, but am a Queen's Scout. More often than not they still don't get it. Maybe I need to do a better job of explaining? Ea.

While something like this might be a lot of fun. I very much doubt if it falls within the BSA Guidelines for fund-raising. If the Council you serve does allow it? You might want to make sure that everyone who participates (Especially non-BSA members)are covered by some sort of insurance. The last thing you need is Grand-Ma falling off the climbing wall and getting hurt. Ea.

I failed to notice that this thread had stared and I gave my 2 cents in the other thread. EA.