Eamonn

I really don't know the correct answer. But if the LDS church is just down the road, I'd walk down the road and ask them! I bet they know. Eamonn

The answer to most of the problems we have with Membership (Not just recruiting) Do have a way of coming back to Program, Program, Program! Looking at the units (Troops and Packs)in our area that seem to provide the best programs, I can't help but notice that these are the units where the adults get along well together and seem to be having fun. Someone send me a PM asking about "Paper Units". Back when I was District Chairman,I was very fortunate to work with a really outstanding DE. We both not only believed that having pretend units was wrong, but we also seen that they would get in the way of us reaching the goals that we wanted to reach. Pretend Kids don't go to camp, they don't sell pop-corn and pretend kids parents don't donate to FOS!! For part of the time I was Chair, we did have a Field Director who was trying to make a name for himself. He did try to bend the rules?? We did clash! I at that time was also serving on the Area Committee. He was looking for a promotion. Needless to say I won!! The District has had some problems over the past 2 or 3 years. We had the worlds worst DE who along with a District Chair who had an ego the size of the great outdoors, managed to mess things up really well and lose many of the hard core volunteers. The Council faced (and still faces) some really tough times financially, some due to sheer stupidity. We are on our third SE in four years! While of course none of this should play into how units deliver the program. Some volunteers have questioned if this really is the organization that they thought it was? Thankfully we seem to have a really good team in place right now. But undoing what has been done and rebuilding is a very big task. Somehow, someway it seems that the commitment from the adults just isn't there, or at least it doesn't seem to be what it once was. Attendance at Round-table meetings is way down. Where as they used to be a time of fun and good fellowship it now seems a time when people only attend when they have a complaint or a moan! This has led to the people who organize the meetings to say "What the heck!" and quit! The District Committee which we had to move because the rooms were big enough is now down to a handful of old codgers like myself! This isn't burn out! Heck from what I see the volunteers we have are not doing enough to light up! Let alone burn out! The Key 3 we now have in place are all great people. They are all working hard, trying to tun things around. The Chair is my best friend, a lifetime Scouter, but even he has voiced that things are bad and he isn't sure what should be done. I can live with what has been done in the past. I know that I can't change the past. I'm willing and I think able to do what I can to help change things around. Maybe I'm hoping that everyone will change! Which is just dumb on my part. I think I need to work on one person, one unit, one committee at a time and look for ways to make what we are doing fun for the adults. Eamonn.

I thought that maybe I'd come off in some way as being unfair to our female leaders. Of course that was never my intention. While we don't have any female SM'S in our Council. I did push for the person who came after me as Wood Badge Course Director to be a female. I was really happy when she was selected and overjoyed when she did a far better job than I had done! (OK, She had benefited from working with me!!) She now serves as our Council Vice-President for Program. Looking back at her selection, I don't think anyone even made mention of the fact that she was a woman. Eamonn.

For about the last year I have served as the Membership Chairman for our District. I really wish I could say that I think that I have done a wonderful job. Sadly I can't. I have been thinking about this. I used to be able to inspire and maybe at times was guilty of bullying unit leaders into going that extra mile in order to go out and recruit more youth members. I just don't seem able to do this anymore. Maybe I have lost my touch? It seems to me that many of the old timers seem to have just given up and the new younger leaders are able to resist the call or the pressure I try to apply (In a nice way of course!) I'm really fed up hearing the 1,001 reasons and 1,002 excuses as to why kids are just not joining. I'm not saying that many of these reasons are not valid. But it does seem that, at least in the area I serve we are so very willing to accept that this is the way things are and that there seems to be no point in trying to change or improve things. At times it almost seems as if people are saying "Sure Scouting is a great idea, only it just doesn't work any more!". They seem willing to accept that membership will never be what it once was and almost willing to accept that the writing is on the wall, that in time we will go the way of the Dodo bird. I'm very much aware that I'm no longer the "Company Man" I once was. Locally we have seen some mismanagement which has at times left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe I'm not as willing as I once was to accept that the BSA "Walks on water". But I still do strongly believe that kids are better in Scouting than they are when they are no in Scouting. I accept that kids are busy, I'm OK with the video games, computers, sports, after school activities and the stuff that kids are into. But I can look back to when Scouting was real big in the UK, when kids left school at 14 years old and worked five and a half days a week! Our youth do still have time on their hands, we can still find ways to offer them fun, adventure and new challenges. Over-coming the idea that we are flogging a dead horse, seems to be my biggest challenge! I still believe that the horse is alive and kicking, I'm happy that the horse is learning new ways of doing things. I just need a way of overcoming the apathy and what seems to be a cloud of doom and gloom that seems to be in the area I serve. Eamonn.

gwd-scouter Thanks for being so nice and polite! I do feel that I'm on the receiving end of a much needed and well deserved smack across the back of the head! Again looking at the people I work with, I see that they are a very diverse group. Diverse in age, ethnic background, color, race -you name it! We have some really outstanding white and black instructors along with some not so great white and black instructors. With this in mind; it was wrong of me to suppose that female SM's would be any different. Good leaders are good leaders because they are good leaders. Please accept my apology if I in any way inferred that being a female leader played a role in this. I'm very happy being me!! I'm a long way from ever coming off as some kind of "Super Scout" Or Hero!! I'm OK telling everyone what I enjoy and don't enjoy. I'm slowly beginning to accept that I'm at an age where trying to keep up with a group of teenagers is at times difficult and at other times down right silly! I know that I can't leap large mountains and accept that at times even hiking up small hills takes its toll. The Scouts are aware of this, they accept this. So while I'm no longer "One of the boys", no longer able to muster the Troop (Ship) and do a 50 mile hike before breakfast! I'm still there for them. At times they do come to me for what might be called the wisdom of the ages?? Or maybe it's just the point of view from someone who is older? Then again maybe it's just because I'm able to find and make the time to listen to them? Lord knows I have never felt that I was endowed with any great wisdom. While maybe some female leaders do feel (Rightly or wrongly.) That some male Leaders and some Scouts do harbor some kind of prejudice. I do feel that the BSA has in a fairly short time done a good job of welcoming and accepting female leadership. Kathy, Other than you recruiting a few more female leaders, I can't come up with a answer that would be acceptable to the BSA and most parents for your cold tent situation. If it's any consolation Her Who Must Be Obeyed is forever complaining how cold I am and that I have the coldest feet! But again we are not going to go there. Eamonn

As most of you fellow forum members know I'm a man. Back when I was a little Lad in the UK all the Scout Leaders were men, most all of the Cub Scout Leaders were also men. Even today in the Council I serve we don't have a female Scoutmaster. There are a few female ASM's. I work in a mostly male environment. All the inmates in the State Correctional facility are male! We do have a handful of female Corrections Officers, a few female nurses and I have two female Instructors in my department. Both are very different. One is a young Lady with small children the other is a Grandmother. From what I observe the inmates do seem to go out of their way to be a little bit nicer and a little bit better behaved when working with /for these ladies. Sure we do have the odd inmate twit who will make the odd nasty comment. (Both of these Ladies are very able to manage that sort of situation!! I for one would never mess with them!!) I'm just wondering do Scouts behave better for a female leader? What challenges do female leaders feel that they face that male leaders don't? I do not have a problem with us having female leaders. This thread is not about if we should or shouldn't have female leaders. Please let's not go there! EAMONN.

I know, I'm going to sound like the Grinch that stole Christmas!! While there is of course "Troop Equipment". Equipment that belongs to the Troop (Or the CO??) This stuff (Whatever it might be) is the responsibility of the Troop Quartermaster or some other willing adult. He or She is charged with looking after it and ensuring that it is where it is supposed to be and in good working order. Or maybe informing the SM and the Troop Committee that it need replaced. The Troop Committee needs to ensure that all Troop equipment is stored in a safe place. Allowing Scouts to take this stuff home with them and not return it in a timely manner? Just shouldn't happen!! I have never liked the idea of giving a Scout something for nothing. It seems to me to not be in keeping with "A Scout is thrifty". Scouts need to feel that they do have an investment in the stuff that they use. They need to feel that the Troop equipment belongs to them. They do this by raising the money for the equipment. They need to have ownership of their own personal equipment. A Scout who has saved the money to buy his own uniform is going to take better care of it than a uniform that was just handed to him. Adults in Scouting can not and should not be buying equipment for Scouts. They are not in any way expected to do so and when they do? They are not teaching the Scout anything. At least nothing worth while!! Cub Scouts should not in my opinion be going camping until it is warm enough that a couple of blankets is enough to keep them warm. I'm not keen on the idea of loaning sleeping bags.In my opinion it is like sharing dirty socks. The bag would need cleaned after each and every use. Bags are not that expensive. A summer bag can be bought for about $25.00 ( Less than a carton of smokes and about the same cost as a case of adult beverages) If a family really is unable to afford to buy the stuff that is needed for the unit to provide the program that is needed. It is far better that the unit provide the Scout opportunities to earn the cash and then buy the stuff from his Scout Account. I know this sounds a little rough and tough. Maybe I should add a few "Bar Humbug's"? Eamonn.

Thanks Bob. Even an old clock like me that doesn't run all the time can be right twice a day! Now if I could only get HWMBO to believe that! Eamonn.

I really dislike the term Troop Leader Recruiting!! If I'm going to allow someone to take care of and look after the most important person in the world to me!! I want someone who has been selected not just recruited. I want the people doing the selection to know what they want and what is expected, not be willing to accept any warm body that can be recruited. The task of looking after and leading our youth members demands more than a yell for help. A great resource is: http://old.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf Some people say that it is a little cumbersome? But I have used it several times and it has always worked for me. You do need to follow each of the steps. Good Luck!! Eamonn.

As far as I know we don't have such a rule in the District I serve. But..... While I agree wholeheartedly with your SE. I'm not sure that I like the way it sounds that he is going about it. The nomination and selection of many District Committee Members lies with the District Nominating Committee. In the District I serve the Nominating Committee takes care of the District Members At Large. The Membership, Finance Chairs. The District Key 3 take care of the other positions. The Council Commissioner selects the District Commissioner and the District Commissioner selects and recruits his/her Commissioner Staff (Who are not supposed to be Unit Leaders.) When I was District Chairman, I would never ever select a Scoutmaster, Cubmaster or Venturing Crew Adviser to serve as a member of the District Committee. My feelings were that these people have a big enough task on their hands without taking on added responsibilities. I also feel that as one of the roles that the District has is to support the units, taking a leader away from his /her unit responsibilities (The Unit) just seemed daffy. How can a District Committee serve and support the unit if the people on the committee are unit leaders? It just doesn't work. The most important adults in a District are the adults who serve the youth. (Unit Leaders) This is where the rubber meets the road and where the youth receive the program. Just about everything, if not everything the District does is to support the Units and the Unit Leaders. Eamonn.

Our District isn't that big. As a rule the Lad calls the District Advancement Chair. They set up a meeting and go over the project. If it is OK? The paperwork is done and the Lad goes away happy. Most often the Advancement guy will offer a few little tweaks and suggestions and the Lad goes away happy. I can only remember one time when the Lad was told that the project wasn't up to snuff. The Advancement Guy (Me!!) Called the Lads SM on the phone and asked if he could come over and we all went over what was wrong. We tend to use R/T to go over program ideas not to do the business of the different District Committees. Ea.

I'm not sure I see the link between the BSA wanting to ensure that all Scouts who meet requirements are recognized ASAP and not allowing the methods that the BSA have in place to work as they are supposed too work? Boys in the Wolf and Bear Dens have an entire year to meet the requirements. The little fellows who do get done early are able to work on the electives. If parents don't understand how things are supposed to work? I have to ask "Who is at fault?" I kinda think we know the answer. I for one do not have a problem informing to a parent why their son didn't receive whatever at a Pack meeting and placing the ball firmly back with them. I have lost count of the number of times I have in this forum, when talking about Youth Leaders (PL's and SPL's) Posted "Train Them, Trust Them, Let Them Lead". I would hope that if we are willing to allow a young Lad to lead other young Lads, that we might be able to trust his parents to lead their own son! Advancement in Scouting is always up to the individual. Dens, Patrols and even Crew Members do not have to advance at the same time. Each person works at their speed and at their own pace. If we allow Advancement to prevent Family Involvement, we are guilty of doing a great disservice to the Cub Scouts. Eamonn

"too many of today's youth expect fun to be delivered to them in a pre-packaged form: video games, amusement parks, laser tag arenas." If this is the case? If we want (I'm not saying that we do!) to affix blame or point the finger? We can't blame the youth, after all we the adults made it this way. Someone in another thread said that Boy's Life was not as good as it used to be. Today it has more flash and less substance. I haven't really taken a lot of notice, I do know that back in the day when I was at school, the teachers seemed happy to tell us to read X number of chapters and inform us that there would be a test. Now it seems that kids are entertained by the teaching staff and tests are more about being able to find the information than knowing the right answers. Again this isn't the fault of the kids. Eamonn.

I'm very happy being an adult. Every now and then I do maybe wish I was 20 years younger. After kayaking 60 miles I was ready for a total back replacement! At times I have a problem seeing things the way the youth I serve see them. I forget that they are not educated the same way that I was. That some things I seen as being a high priority are not as important as they once were? I forget that they are exposed to so much more than I was. Some good and some really bad stuff. Of course this might all just me getting old and not remembering? Eamonn.

" It is a unique opportunity to use the structure we provide to interact with their son in fashion their family life may not have previously provided. We give them the tools -- they have to do the job" Wow -What truly wise and wonderful words!! I agree wholeheartedly. Eamonn

'The problem is too few parents want to make their scout's advancement a priority in their son's development" Who ever said that Advancement should be a priority? It is just a method of helping us get to where we need to be. When we make it a priority, we have made a real mess of things. Eamonn.

Hi and Welcome. It is great that you are willing to do what you can to serve the youth in your community. In a recent interview a reporter asked the new Chief Scout Executive if Scouts and Scouting was in danger of becoming like the buggy whip? He said that Scouting needed to remain relevant for todays youth. What relevant might mean? Might depend on where you are and who you ask! Back in the 1950's we had a lot of adults who had served in the military, many having served in WWII. Tom Brokaw titled his book about these people "The Greatest Generation". These people (Who did such wonderful work during and after the war) gave birth to the Baby Boomer's. Many of these Baby Boomer's seen the world and how things should be in a different light than their parents did. Where as their parents seemed more willing to obey orders and do what was expected, this next generation asked why? Many rebelled against what they seen as "The Man". The youth we serve today in Scouting are the children and grand children of these rebels. The world has changed a lot since the 1950's! "military crisp" Might sound like a good idea, it might well work? We do however need to be careful that we don't allow our own expectations to get in the way of serving the youth who come our way. One of the best Sea Scouts we have in the Ship, is a real Heavy Metal fan. His hair is almost at his waist! When he isn't Sea Scouting he is planning his next visit to Oz Fest! I think he is about your age, maybe a little younger. You might want to give some thought about maybe joining a Sea Scout Ship? If you remain as an adult do take the training's with an open mind. In our Council we do have a few units that might be seen as "military crisp". These units do seem to appeal to some Scouts and their parents, sadly one or two of them dwell a little too much on the military and forget that Scouting is not a military organization. Eamonn.

I find it sad that it seems some people (Scouter's) are not happy or are some how ill at ease allowing things to work the way that they are supposed too. If we allow this "All Mighty Goal Of Advancement" to become the goal in Cub Scouting? Is it any wonder that parents who have sons in Boy Scouting see Eagle Scout rank as the reason for their son being in Boy Scouts. If we don't allow parents to do what they are supposed to do? Is it any wonder that when their son's get involved in Boy Scouting they are happy to just leave everything in the hands of the few overworked adults in the Troop or the Webelos Scout Den? The standard for meeting requirements in Cub Scouting is that a Lad does his best. Parents do know when their son has done his best. Systems that work toward checking that parents are doing their job , only undermine the way things are supposed to be and are supposed to work. Packs and Dens working around a common theme, not working on individual advancement or Den advancement is how I have always seen Cub Scouting work at its best. This talk of Cub Scout Advancement What-Ever?? Is very upsetting. Do some things need to be looked at and worked on as a Den? Maybe. But we are working with little Lads who are still in elementary school. Most parents that I have met are up to the task. Sure they might need some help. Most times that help can be given in a couple of minutes conversation after a Den meeting. If we are not going to trust parents to do their job? What hope have we ever of trusting Boy Scouts to do theirs? Eamonn (Staff Member NECS58)

I seen Cub Scout advancement as something that was more about having families work together, than being about the little Lads "Earning" or passing requirements. I have to admit that I'd never heard of a Cub Scout Advance-aree. With so many people not understanding the Boy Scout Advancement Method. I kinda think that this just is setting the wrong tone. Eamonn.

I leave my extra copies in the offices of local doctors and leave a copy in the hospital where HWMBO works. Not to change the subject,but... A few months back I went for an x-ray in a local medical center. The magazines were all old, but I picked up a copy of the National Geographic Magazine from 1978!! It was fun reading th ads!! Eamonn.

Kinda sounds to me as if your itching to return! Please don't tell anyone, but we will make room for you! Ea.

Not so very long back there was a thread about the Win All You Can Game, which is part of the Wood Badge course. I have been a Staff Member on courses where the adult participants get so annoyed and upset that it would seem that the Oath and Law have gone out with the dish water. At one time in the District I serve someone thought it would be fun to hold an adult Pinewood Derby race, a couple of guys nearly came to blows!! I'm happy being an adult. I do not see any need to join in the games and the activities that are intended for the Scouts. I really don't see this as doing anything for adult association. Me acting like a kid? is not going to do anything to help a Scout learn work with other adults and develop the skills needed to navigate the adult world. Sure I'm willing to let my hair down and be a "Wild and Crazy Guy" at a camp fire. But I see my role as providing the living example to Scouts of the ideals of Scouting. More importantly, adults provide the impetus for a Scout's personal growth and self confidence. Eamonn

"The ideal troop is whatever satisfies the boys who are in it and follows the Scout Oath and Law and BSA policies." I think I might know what you mean? But we could have a group of Scouts who are very satisfied attending every Troop meeting and playing basket ball or dare I say it video games!! They might be the greatest example of living the oath and law. They would not be going against any of the BSA policies. They might even be within the parameters of many of the methods of Scouting. So I'm not sure this works. Eamonn.

I know a few adult leaders who get very defensive when anyone has the nerve to mention that they maybe are not doing things as they should be done. While I try not to allow myself to go for generalizations, it seems to me that in most cases the further these units have strayed from the BSA way of doing things and the more they have rewritten the program the more defensive they get. Over the past few years I think I have mellowed a little. A few years back I seen anyone who was not doing things by the book as not only being wrong, but as also not living up to our Oath and Law. Where as today I'm more willing to be open to units doing what works for them, in some areas. I do believe that given a chance and some open minded hard work that the methods of Scouting can and do work. (Yes all of them.) I also have come around to the idea that these methods are goals. Even when it seems that we have mastered them or got them down pat, things change and we have the need to start over. The Patrol Method can and does work well. But when a Troop doesn't have enough Scouts, it is tough to follow. A new arrival of not so well off Scouts might mean that the great looking uniformed Troop is no longer looking that way.I could go on and give reasons why anyone of the methods might need to be put on hold. I don't buy into the idea that this has anything to do with CO's. It has to do with the people who deliver the program. This does not mean that the adult leaders are always at any sort of fault. It just means that they deal the hand that they are dealt, but we strive to make it better. Sadly sometimes making it better does involve making some hard choices. That kid who most of the time is a nice Lad, but who seems unable to stop bullying, might have to be removed. That ASM who undermines the SM might be better off in another unit. The Committee member who is only there to defend her little darling who is a little brat, is not serving anyone, not even her little darling. I'm not in any way saying that the BSA program and all that good stuff is wrong, I'm just saying that in the real world we at times have to do what we think is best to provide the program to the Scouts that we have, with th help that we have. Eamonn

Being a kid with parents who are deeply involved in Scouting is not easy. Much as we try to not push or force our little darling into doing something that he might not want to do, we somehow end up doing it anyway. As you know, I was never a part of the Troop that OJ was a member of. I wasn't always happy with the way things were done or how they went about doing them. Still come Tuesday night (Troop Night.) I was the one saying things like: " Are you getting ready?" "Your not going to Scouts looking like that!" "Hurry up, your going to be late" While there were a few times when OJ said that he wasn't going and gave good reasons for not going, I know in my heart of hearts that I was guilty of applying pressure to make him attend. Scouts and Scouting is big in our house. Somehow everything has a way of coming back to Scouting. Most of my friends are involved or have been involved. Over 75% of the phone calls we get seem to end up with Scouting conversations. One of our dearest friends who has been a friend for over 30 years is the guy who was Camp Director when OJ was a staff member on camp staff. Him and OJ for some reason just don't get on. OJ hasn't a good word to say about the fellow. All of this makes life kinda hard when we invite the Camp Director over for dinner. What I think, I'm trying to say it that at times our kids are on Scouting overload. I don't know about other Lads! But looking back at OJ's Scouting career! He was the one that wanted to join Cub Scouts, it was his idea. Once he was in and I got involved as a Cub Scouter, a lot of what he did was to please me or because I stood over him. I'm not saying that he didn't have fun. But when a group of kids were maybe doing something that they ought not to have been doing, he was at times singled out because I didn't have to work at remembering his name. When he first joined the Troop. I think he was still trying to make me happy and go out of his way to prove to me that he was as good as I was?? He was still in elementary school when he crossed over. So other than Scouts there wasn't much else on his agenda. We have Junior High Schools, which are in separate buildings from the High School, so again there wasn't much else going on. He did join the choir and did play soccer, but other than that Scouting was his main activity. Things changed a lot when he went to the High School. He got very involved in a lot of activities. I do get a little peeved when I read about lazy, good for nothing kids who do nothing but play video games! His day started at 6:30, the School bus picked him up at 6:45. What with track, soccer, choir, school plays,volley ball, basket ball, the school video there were nights when he didn't get home till almost 7:00 and night when he rushed home only to rush back. Finding time for Scouts and the OA was really hard. His big change came when he passed his driving test and was able to drive himself where he wanted to go. This independence forced me to loosen my grip on what, where and when he was going to do. At high school he also learned how to deal with bullies (He was a fairly popular kid, so it was never a real problem.) While I'm not in any way trying to condone bullying. I do think that learning how to get along with other people, which at times might mean avoiding them! Learning what group of people you want to hang out with is a big part of the educational process. Your son will in time let you know what he wants to do or not do. How you deal with this? I of course don't know!! I feel sure that you will allow him to voice his opinion. I feel sure you will offer him your thoughts and your ideas. But at the end of the day he will do or not do what he wants to do and like it or not you will support him. I'd be very careful of thinking that a Venturing Crew is the answer that will fix everything. While I'm sure that many Crews have mastered the Youth Led problem. It has been my experiences that because the youth are so very busy, they are afraid to commit to doing things and even more afraid of committing to organizing them. Finding the right adult who is good at this can be very hard. As for what you are going to do? I kinda think if you were to sit down and write what you think is going to happen over the: Next Year, Three Years and Five Years. You might get a much clearer picture of what you might want to do now. Looking at myself. Before OJ got involved, I was happy sitting on a properties committee, that met a couple of times a year, not ever doing very much and I'd donate a few dollars. When OJ first joined I was busy as his Cubmaster, from there I went on the work at the District, Council and Area level. I was out most nights of the week and doing stuff almost every weekend. Then I wanted to do more stuff with the youth members so the Ship came along. Then I found I just didn't have the time that this required so I stepped down as Skipper. Now I'm happy just being the Membership Chairman, which is not demanding a lot of my free time. OJ is hardly involved, he has become active in the local volunteer fireman and what with work and school doesn't have time. He is still registered somewhere -I'm not sure where!! He is now doing what he wants to do. I'm not sure if he will ever want to get heavily involved. I'm perfectly happy saying no to a lot of the things that people seem to think I might want to do or should do. I do kinda think that my days are numbered. When I look in my crystal ball, I don't see me being around much after five years from now. My heart will always be in Scouting, I'm willing to give what support I can. I just don't think this support will involve my time. Sorry If I have gone on a bit. Eamonn.