Eamonn

I do think that it is a shame that anyone wants to leave this great organization. Still even though I have a problem with it, I can see that it happens. In some cases and in some units it happens a lot. But the problem is how does a young person get some one to listen and heed what is being said? I do think the letter idea was a good one. How do any of us get what we want? First we have to know what we want. This might mean spending some time thinking about it. At times all of us feel that we are in over our head and want to just "Chuck it all". But after spending some time pondering it over, many of us have second thoughts. The next step would be "What am I willing to do, to get what I want. Ok so you quit Scouts. Are you willing to take up something else? Will you spend more time doing school work? Will you volunteer to do something else? Is there another way? Would Dad be ok with you just being a crew member, would you be happy with this? Once you have all your stuff worked out, and you are really sure that you want what you think you wanted!!! You have to present your issue to your Dad. You do have to pick your time. My son has a couple of seaky ways. For small things he waits until we are in the car, and then hits me with it. This works as there is no one else around and he has me all to himself. For the "Big Things" He lets both his Mother and I know that he wants to talk to us. Kind of like making an appiontment. We then meet after dinner and he lays out what he wants. We all try to keep a cool head. Most of all him - Getting upset or mad and storming off will not get the message across. At times he thinks that we have been unfair or unjust. We of course don't feel that way. But if he can prove his point, most of the time we will see that we were wrong. I don't know if any of this will help. I do feel bad that you are not happy with Scouts and Scouting. You might do well to re-read the wise words of the other posters. You might want to take a long hard look at the Scout Law and Oath - I know when I want to tell everyone where to go and what to do, I take a hard look at this promise that I made and remake all the time, and the answer is hidden in there, if I look for it.

This seems like a great idea. I will do what I can to let the crews in our area in on it. Here in Westmoreland Fayette Council, we have not todate set the world on fire when it comes to the Venturing. Still that is about to change - Or so I have been told. One of our members has been made the Regional Venture Advisor - I have no idea what he is to do, and this is a new one on me. Anyway he is at this time full of pep and wants to get things going. Last time that I spoke with him, he was a bit down in the dumps. He had sent a letter out to the nearby councils asking for info about what they were doing and had not got a single reply. One of the Staffers on our Wood Badge, is the father of the Regional Venturing president, he E-mailed me to ask who this Regional Advisor was? There does seem to be a lot of people trying to do stuff but there does seem to be a need for better lines of communication. At least in our neck of the woods. The web, does seem like a great tool to help in this area. Good Luck. Eamonn

Sparkie, I have yet to look at the link, but I did see that show on PBS. Thanks for the link. I do think that with so many things changing in the schools, we as adults who give up time to work with kids do need to keep up to date with at least some of it. There are a lot of educaters who are now thinking outside the box. Kids are learning and being taught in ways that were unheard of when I was at school. In fact the nuns at Holy Cross, would be lost.

I have been reading the postings on ADD. Please don't think that I'm back tracking on what I posted there. Sometime back on PBS, there was a documentary on education. While my memory is a little hazy. It showed a school where the classes were, very unlike what I attended. Where as I had to sit,listen and hopefully learn. This class had the kids come in and work in small teams on projects. The students were free to move around the classroom, and make use of the available resources. The students had made their own rules of conduct and had a list of consequences, that they had come up with for not following the rules. Some very wise educator, with half alphabet after his name, went on to say that children, particularly boys were not a sitting animal. That they learnt far more when they were free to move about and work in this unconventional envvironment. I do remember thinking as I watched it, that this is nothing new Baden Powell had said the same thing many years before. I don't work in education, but I wonder if some of the children who are ADD,might be more at ease in this less formal classroom setting? Eamonn

DaveF Welcome to the happy band. It sure seems that you are "Up" on this Power Point, stuff. Have to admit that it is all new to me. I only started to use it, when the training changed and then was only presenting the stuff that was in the box. It has only been this past year or so that I have started to make my own presentations. As ever just by "Tinkering" with it. I do keep telling myself to try and find the time to take a few classes - But.... It is great that you found us, Again Welcome Eamonn

Sad to report that have not made it to camp this year. Could be that no one asked me? Could be that I have two weeks tied up in our up and coming Wood Badge Course. However, following the style of our Man Of Steele. As a little fellow, I was a bad asthmatic,and a sickly kid. My Mum, was never keen on me being too far away from her watchful eye. Scouts and Scouting was the catalyst that helped both her and I become more independent. She needed to learn to "Let go" and I needed to grow up. My Dad was a great chap, but was a very busy man.I think that him being an Irish immigrant, who came to England at a time when there were signs for employment that also had "No Irish Need Apply," Left him wanting to prove something. He was very successful, but there wasn't a lot of time for us kids. As a teenager, I know that I spent more time at the Scout Hall and at camp then I did at home. Some people say that they are in Scouting as an adult to pay something back. I know that Scouting is part of my make up. Every moment at camp is great. But looking at the stuff that has been said already and seeing the little fellows in the district come on board as Tigers, attend day camps and resident camps, follow them from afar as they move on to the high adventure stuff. Spending time talking with them as they move from cute little guys to become young men. We have to know that we are part of something that is just so good. We owe so much to all those who have gone before us. Eamonn

Other then the World Crest,it sounds like the cap that I wore as a Wolf Cub (Not a den, we were Wolf Cubs. At that time mid 60's the highest award in Wolf Cubs was the Leaping Wolf. When you reached your 11th birthday you were part of your final Grand Howl and then leaped into the troop)in England. The patch on the cap was a blind wolf and then as you made your way through the ranks, you earned stars that went on your cap and jersey, The stars on your cap showed that you had one eye open then two eyes open. The pack was divided not by age, as new Wolf Cubs joined they were put in a six. The Six's were lead by a Sixer who had as an assistant a Seconder. It was a lot of fun. It changed in 1969. After the "Advanced Party Report." And has undergone more changes again this year. One thing that I do miss is the "Grand Howl" I did it with a couple of hundred Cub Scouts at day camp a few years back. It used to be mentioned in the Cub Leader Book. I have up to date copies, but have not got around to reading them. Eamonn

Man Of Steele. If the job becomes vacant. Don't take it. We like you here with us. Heck 300k Or all that good cheese??

Ed When the QM, asks the Patrol Leader for help, the style of leadership that the Patrol Leader needs to employ needs to change. He can no longer delegate the job. He may need to Coach or guide, until such a time as the QM is able to undertake the job. We are not really looking at the role of the QM. We are looking at the Leadership of the Patrol Leader. Just as at work, my boss has given me tasks that need to be done and there are methods to get these accomplished. For the most part, he is happy to leave me alone and has faith in me that I will do the job. He has delegated that task/goal to me. However there are times when the job/task/goal will change. Without some sort of leadership I could end up not being able to get the job done.

OJ,my 15 year old does not have ADD/ADHD. We do have very close friends that have 3 kids and the middle one a boy, does have ADD. They have opted to use the meds. At times this Lad has caused a lot of turmoil in their home. Looking at it from the outside, I'm never sure how much can be put down to him just being a boy who seems to get caught doing dumb things or to the illness. His parents have taken him to Children's Hospital in Pittsburgh, and along with the meds, the people at the hospital strongly recomended that as a family they try and do everything in a very structured, almost regimented way. Having meals at the same time each day, bedtime at the same time and so on. Sad to say the family has not followed this advise. In part because the Mom works shift work at the local hospital. As a non-medical person, I see my role in dealing with youth who have ADD/ADHD, no different then dealing with any other youth who might have an illness. We would have all worked with youth that have asthma or some other illness. At times this may have got in the way of what we, the troop or even the Scout wanted to do. - But we found a way of making it work. We make it work by treating each Scout as an individual and knowing the Scout as we do. Just before the last Jamboree, I had a mother inform me that her son was ADD, and took his meds during school, he didn't take them during the school vacation. I have to admit to thinking "Thanks A Lot!!" However,she was right. The Lad is a great kid, he does tend to worry about things more then the other Lads. He may be a little more talkative then most other Lads his age, and maybe a little more emotional. This might just be the way he is or it might be the ADD, kicking in. Then again, if we are going to accept him as a person, we have to accept him with the illness that he has. Just as we would accept a Lad with any other illness or infirmity. From some of the other postings that I have seen in other threads, it seems that some are not willing to accept that this is an illness or that a swift kick in the pants will be the cure. From where I stand, these lads are doing their best and while at times we all have a hard time with their behavior, we must try and be as understanding as possible. Had this posted and seen that I had not answered the question. Me from my non-medical standpoint think that the parents and at some point in time the youth, will opt if and when to take the meds. Just as my wife does with her allergy pills. She makes the choice, depending on what she sees as the need.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Ed. You are right. The Quartermaster is doing his job. In fact he is doing it with little or no supervision. Who asked or delegated the job to him? If we look back to his "First time out" we might note that he forgot the tarps. What do you think the Patrol Leader did the second time out? I would think that he might well have fallen back and used a different style of leadership. He may have thought that the Quatermaster needed a little Coaching, in order to get the job done. I suppose if we had the Utopian Scout Troop, we might not have the need for different styles of leadership. Everyone who just get on and get the job, that they were asked to do done. However, while the goal is that we can just delegate the tasks that need to be done, we do at times need to use the other styles of leadership. If we were to change the Camping trip to a canoeing trip and the Quartermaster had never been on a canoeing trip. He would still be the Quartermaster, he would still be willing to do a good job, but he would need a lot more help. Then a different style would be needed. Of course at any time the Patrol Leader could decide that he is in charge and stop asking and start ordering.He might be able to get the job done. But he would then not be the team leader, he would be ruler/tyrant. How do you think that the other patrol members would feel about being ordered to do things? We might also note that the Quatermaster noticed that the Dutch Ovens were needed but not on the patrol equipment list. As an empowered team member he took the iniitive and added them. Yes sir, he was doing the doing the job that the patrol leader delegated him to do. Eamonn Of course it would be super if anyone else would join in and give us their take on how these Leadership Skills, work or don't work??? For them.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Have to admit yo not being over keen on the addition of toy guns. Not sure if we would look like a millitary unit or a bunch of cheer leaders.

Well, we did manage to meet our over all goal. We only did so due to the fact that we/I begged and pleaded with the community guys to go back and do a phone- athon. We met the district goal. But did not meet the family goal. We are to date the only district in the council to meet the goal and are in fact at 104%. I did take all the FOS community captains to dinner at camp. After dinner, I thanked them and warned them that the goal would go up again next year. At our last Key3 meeting we were to sign off on next years budgets and start work on next years goals. When I get all my ducks in order, I will go and spend some time with the SE. Some time back,I let him know that we would have to be carefull not to raise the goal too much, as the community people are worried. Asking people to "up" their donation didn't work.So the only way to go is to bring more workers on board. The district committee feels that I ought to go in to the meeting with the SE, and fight with him. This is not going to happen. This is not my style and I'm far too lazy!! I do have people working on updating the community lists, removing names of people who have not given in the past three years, some are unhappy with the BSA, some have moved and some are dead (Really dead - See Monty Phython parrot sketch.)Also I am having all the names of people that are on our list and the council has "Taken" and put on someother list removed. We are looking at ways to improve the Family Presentation. - Any ideas are more then welcome. Then there is the Goal!! I think that once all the lists have been corrected and we have a real number- That being the amount of money that came in. I will see if we can try for a 3% increase. He won't be happy, but I will remind him that we are the only district that brings in extra money from our district golf outing and from the outstanding citizen dinner. He will want 5%, so we will settle on 4%.

I visited the site. Things are looking great. Fine job. I will get information from some of the units in my district, and send it to you.

Much as I hate to disagree. I fail to see how anyone can make the decision to make up their own rules. I have never thought of myself as being in chagre, when it comes to advancement.(Of course when it comes to matters of safety, we are in a new ballpark.)However if one must use the term "In Charge." What are you in charge of? I would hope that you are in charge of delivering the program of the Boy Scouts Of America. As an adult leader, I serve the youth. Ok, at this time I'm not lucky enough to be in a program area. However I still do what I can, never losing sight of the end user, - Our Youth. When it comes to advancement, we all do well to follow the BSA's "Four Steps to Advancement." 1. A youth learns. 2. A youth is tested. 3. A youth is reviewed. 4. A youth is recognized. If as adult leaders we can provide hands on situations for the youth in which they are actively involved in doing what ever the skill is, that is being passed on. If the youth can see the end goal that they are learning to achieve. If we the adults or some other experianced person (Patrol Leader, SPL,or Crew member.) Can provide all the information that is needed. Maybe using a range of different presentation techniques.( Remembering that each youth is an individual and may learn in different ways. Some Scouts may be able to learn out of the book, while others may want or need to hear and see what is being passed on. The youth today are used to being taught with a multimedia approach.) If we provide a demonstration, and have the youth follow along. We can then allow the youth to work through the steps. Allowing them to make mistakes and to figure out corrections. With a leader on hand to gently bring them back in to the correct method if they go far afield. All the time we the adults or presenters need to be generous with support and praise. The end result will be that the youth will have met the goal. If the goal was a skill that we can use in the program, we can reinforce this skill, by allowing the youth opportunites to use the skill. This is not a new idea, so please don't try and hide behind the fact that you are old or old fashioned. Baden Powell laid this out in "Aids to Scoutmastership" (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Sad to say,I have not seen the delta ad. National used to display their ads on their web site. I will have take a look. OGE, National does have a set of TV ads, that you can get. Our local cable company donates the air time. I have to admit that the only time I have ever seen one is very late at night. We only can get them to air them around the time we are doing the school recruitment. This is a great project sale for our district. Eamonn

Man of Steele,don't keep us hanging we know your part in this, and you were never the shy guy. I have heard that you climb 25' towers at JLTC to look at the lashings. But me thinks that Rockets are more your style then catapults. What did you do? And what style of Leadership, did you use?

Those of us who have been in Scouting for any length of time know that makes this organization so good, is that we have such diversity and that everyone does bring something to the table or the campfire. Over the years, I have made many friends, in fact nearly all my best friends are in or I have met through Scouting. They are a mixed bunch, made up of men and women, boys who have become men and boys who are in the process of becoming men. A good many of the older guys have at some time served on a committee, that I have also been on. At times there has been disagreements, and at times these have become heated. I remember one night at a membership meeting our Assistant Scout Exec. got so mad that he walked out of the meeting. He only returned when he remembered that he was the one with the keys, and he had to lock up the building. We all had a good laugh about it when we went th Eat and Park later. Many of us are very passionate about Scouting, and can at times get so wrapped up in what we see or deem to be right that we can forget that Scouting is a safe place, where no one gets harmed in body or spirit. Sad to say there is a posting on the forum that is not living up to this very simple rule. I don't know if the person who posted it, thought that maybe it was funny at the time? However, to my mind it can cause nothing but harm. I will not have anything to do with the posting, and would hope that the person who posted it would be man enough to offer his apology. Then we can deal with important matters like the cost of Scout Socks. Eamonn

While I'm aware that I'm not in the best of moods, the end of the month does this to me. I do ask that you forgive me if I come off , as sounding a little out of sorts. I go along with SM406. If we start with the premise, that Advancement belongs to the Scout or better still each individual Scout, and add to this that each Scout is an individual. How can we even dare to use terms like "We need to hold them back." Who do WE think WE are? A Scout who belongs to an active troop that presents a well rounded program, will be "Seasoned" enough as he grows and spends time in and with the troop. We ask each Scout to have his own copy of the Scout Handbook, this book clearly lays out what the requirements are for each rank. This book is can be looked upon as a fact list. When people choose to ignore it, by adding or taking away from it. - What message are they passing on? Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? There are also Handbooks and Training's for adults. I have yet to see anything or hear it said that if you don't like something that you can go ahead and change or alter it. What would happen if we all followed the program. Treated each and every Scout as the individual that he is? And maybe gave some thought to the idea of Servant Leadership, - Where we serve the needs of the Scout. Not put obstacles in his way.

You don't say what part of England. While we are a small island, we have a lot of history and we are very proud of our Scouting history. As a very proud Londoner (Born of Irish parents!! So also a very proud Irishman.) I think that you could keep them busy in London for a month, let alone the whole of England. The link that Wallace has given will provide a lot of good ideas and depending on where you are there are so many great places to visit. One really neat one is the Windmill on Wimbeldon Common. Common Land,was where you could take your animals to graze if you were a commoner,many of these tracts of land are still as they were hundreds of years ago. While some have undergone a little updating, and are a little like very mini state parks. The Windnill is where Baden Powell wrote a lot of Scouting for Boys. Follow the river up to Kingston and on to Richmond Park, which is a royal park, full of deer ans sheep and you can visit the lodge where Baden Powell had dinner with King Edward and discussed Scouting. You might want to go to the East End of London and visit Rowland House, donated by Lord Rowland to house young men who would work with the under privileged working class boys of the that area. England and London are great places to go and discover the history of Scouting. But bring a umbrella.

Eagle? Aaaargh? At times this is how I feel. In fact, it has got to the stage, where I try not to have anything to do with it. Most of the time, I don't have to. Yes I do try to attend every Eagle Scout Court of Honor, that I'm invited to. But there are far to many people pushing for this Award, that I end up becoming less then happy. To make matters worse, most of those doing the pushing are not the Scouts. (Strange thing, is that as I was going to post this I had the Stones playing and the track that came on was "You can't always get what you want.") It's the adults. Be they the Scoutmaster of the Troops that average over 75% of the membership reaching this award, or the parent. I try very hard not to sit on any BOR. The fact is that I really do like the Scouts and will if asked bend over backwards to help any boy.However, I'm a very tough nut. I go by the book. I got a call from a member of the District Advancement Committee, there had been a hold up on the paper work at the troop level and old age was nearing. He faxed the paper work to my office and sure enough there was one required merit badge not completed. It was if I remember right, personal fittness. There was no way it could be done in time. I called the committee person and informed him that it just couldn't be done. He without a pause said that he would work with the boy. Thinking that he had not understood me, I again said that there was no way. He again offered to work with the boy. After I explained that there was no way. He went on to tell me that I was being unreasonable and unfair. By now cheerful was in very short supply!! So I said that no matter what I would sit on this BOR, and this Lad would only make Eagle Scout, over my dead body. I then phoned the Advancement Chair. and asked him to go over "How the system works" with his committee. I also phoned the Scout and explained why I was acting the way I was. He was/is a great Lad, when I said that it was not possible, he said that he knew that, but his Scoutmaster told him to try it and see what happened. The last I heard of the Lad he was over in Iraq. While he is in my thoughts and my prayers, there are times when I wish it was the Scoutmaster who was over there on camel duty.

Leave no trace is now part of the Wood Badge course. What is great is that the Wood Badge participants, are invited to visit a Leave No Trace campsite, which is presented by a Venture Crew, the crew also facilitate a disscussion with the members of each patrol to hightlight the principles of Leave No Trace. This happens on day four of the course. While I admit to being a big fan of the new course, to my mind having youth involved is about the best thing that was added. At this the "Halfway Mark," it kind of acts as a reminder of why we are there. Eamonn

We just had a troop from Scotland sleep over at our council camp, this summer. All the troop had kilts, which were owned by the troop. Very smart. As someone who was at one time "Forced" to wear an Irish kilt (County Louth.- We use counties not clans.) I can say that they take a little getting used to. At the time I was only ten years old. Let me warn you of the dangers of Tree climbing in a kilt. Had a really strange going on the other weekend. I live next door to the West Overton Museum, and next to them there is the Fort Allen Farm and Tractor Museum. Two weekends ago the West Overton had a civil war camp out, while the Fort Allen had Scottish games. My dogs are not sure which was worse the cannon fire or the bag pipes. It didn't do much for my lazy English Setter. He had a hard time taking his naps.

Baden Powell once said "Never do anything for a boy that he can do for himself." He also said "Slowly, Slowly catchee monkey" All Scoutmasters go to bed and dream that they will wake up to this wonder of wonder, the Boy Led Troop. Unless you are starting a new troop, or have done this from day one it does take a little getting used to. While I firmly believe that running a Boy Led Troop is a lot more fun. More fun then me doing all the work. I also believe it takes a lot more leadership. It does make me sad to see that the Scoutmaster is appionting blame, and worse still that he is unapproachable. It does seem that this poor chap is in need of an attitude adjustment. He has read the cover he now needs to read the book. He needs to toddle off to Training ASAP. It would seem like a good idea if the Troop did the JLTC, training not just for the sake of getting the Scouts up to speed - But also to get the leaders on the same right page. Then of course there is your ever friendly Unit Commissioner. He/she could be a big help here. At times all of us need a friendly kick in the pants. Sad to say this poor chap may be one of those, who just don't get it. In that case the best thing for everyone is to do as Bob White says, far more politely then I would: "An administrative Change."

No I didn't know that. Thank you. Did you know that he was born in England?