Eamonn

Thanks for the kind words. I was going to use the word Love in place of fond. In fact love is the right word. These Lads were and still are very close to my heart. Mark is right on the money. These young men allow us to be part of their lives. They are happy to spend time with us. While we start out with the idea that we are servant leaders. What we get back is priceless. There is a poem about a little fellow watching me. It is true they are watching us. We have to try and live up to their expectations. Scouting offers us all the chance of making a difference. While very few of us can put our hand on hearts and say that we really are living the Oath and Law. Many of us can say that we are giving it our best shot and at the same time trying to set an example. Along with trying to see that the mission of the BSA is just not words on a page. It is real. It can and does work. If we remain young at heart it works for us. Eamonn

We are having a hard time with these events. Attendance at Pow Wow has been going down and down. Also looking at those who do attend, it seems to be the same old "Pow wowers?" I don't think that we have ever tried a University. Not sure why. It just never came up. Due to the poor turn out for Pow Wow, we are giving it a break, and this coming spring will try a Show and do. We have never tried that either. So it ought to be fun. It seems as if you guys have really got your act together and I take my hat off to you. Well I would if I wore one. Eamonn

We are having a hard time with these events. Attendance at Pow Wow has been going down and down. Also looking at those who do attend, it seems to be the same old "Pow wowers?" I don't think that we have ever tried a University. Not sure why. It just never came up. Due to the poor turn out for Pow Wow, we are giving it a break, and this coming spring will try a Show and do. We have never tried that either. So it ought to be fun. It seems as if you guys have really got your act together and I take my hat off to you. Well I would if I wore one. Eamonn

Please don't think that I'm taking a cheap shot. Eisely, Have you ever listened to a group trying to sing the middle bit of the American National Anthem? At times it can be a little hard on the ears. Eamonn

I'm not sure if this ought to be here or in "The Patrol Method" We seem to have spent a lot of time talking about "The Boy Led Troop". Most of the Scoutmasters that I have met will state that the troop that they serve is a Boy Led Troop. I have been away from Troop leadership for a while. Looking at the length of time that others have spent working as Scoutmasters, my term of about a dozen years seems puny. As a Scout our troop was very active. In no small part due to the effort of our Scoutmaster.We were busy doing something all the time. We camped a lot, hiked a lot and were always on the go. Two meetings a week, most weekends and swimming once a week. Not everyone attended everything. But most made it to the weekly troop meeting. We were in patrols and the SPL, was in charge of the troop meetings. The PLC met at least once a month. As a Scout I thought that this was great. Sad thing is that when I got into leadership I found out that what we were doing was not 100%. I served as a PL and SPL. I attended the PLC. As both a PL and SPL, I found out that while we did have responsibility and were given free range in some areas. What was really happening was that the Scoutmaster was very much like a Chairman. He had his agenda / program and we were to do everything that we could to deliver it to our patrols and the troop. When I became Scoutmaster, I thought that this was not right. So I handed over the leadership of the troop to the SPL and the PL's. Other then ensure safety I stood back and did little or nothing. It didn't work. Nothing was getting done. No plans were being made. The troop became a gang. Next try was for me as Scoutmaster to become a coach. This was worse then when my Scoutmaster was the Scoutmaster. I was calling the plays. All the Patrol Leaders and the SPL, were doing was setting the example. They had little or no say in what the troop was doing or where it was going. Some things looked really good on paper we had a lot of advancement and were still very active. After attending Wood Badge I thought that maybe I would try doing it by the book. I gave the youth leaders real authority and responsibility. I backed it up with training in planning and in how to conduct the program. I was there to give help and guidance. But the PLC had a free hand to make decisions and implement the program. Once we had this in place all sorts of strange thing happened. First I found that Scouting was a lot more fun for me. I really got to know and grow very fond of these Scouts. These guys were thinking "Out Of The Box" before I ever knew that there was a box. They stretched themselves and me. Membership went through the roof. Needless to say some lads were better Patrol Leaders then others, and there were one or two really outstanding SPL's. Sometimes things didn't work well. Sometimes things didn't work at all. But there was something to be taken out of everything. There were times when I found myself falling back into being the Coach or the Chairman. Very often it was the Scouts who informed me that I was doing so. Or we found it out during a reflection. Eamonn

There is some concern about tags with names on. Seems as if we can never get ahead of the game. We have also stopped having items around the necks of the little lads. I wonder if my Wood Badge is OSHA friendly? (Joke!!) You might be able to get a patch made and then punch the holes and add strings and beads. Eamonn.

My Oath. My God. My Promise. Can we demand anyone to pray ? How we communicate with our God is a choice that is up to the individual. Yes we need to invite everyone to Vespers / Scouts Own. We need to be mindful that not everyone is of the same creed. I fail to see how a leader can demand that the Scouts attend while he doesn't. Some of the best "Services" are those which the Good Lord gives us without any notice. On a hike when we see the beauty of creation and we stop and chat to the Scouts about how lucky we are and how someone is looking after us. Eamonn

While maybe the BSA needs to look at the wording of some of the policies. I think and this is just my opinion that unless we had a strict "You Can" or "You Can Not" do whatever. There will always be those of us (And yes I have done it!!) Who will look for and find a loop hole. Maybe I am out of line but I am at times a real busy body. If I see someone riding in the back of a pickup truck at a Scout Camp. I will go out of my way to tell them not to do it. If I see anyone smoking in front of Scouts I wiil ask them not to do it. So far everyone has been real nice about this sort of thing. Why? I think that they are aware that some things are just wrong. On the other hand there are other things that I have learned to take plenty of "No Notice." Much as I would love to see all the leaders in our district in full uniform. It isn't happening. So other then at Training's, I just let it go. Yes there are times when as a smoker I feel that everyone is picking on me. But I only have to look at the side of the pack to see some of the harm that smoking can do. I sure as heck do not want to be the role model to any boy who might think that smoking is cool just because I do smoke. There has been the odd rare occasion when being a smoker has had its' advantages. The other year at Philmont Conference Center, while everyone was rushing to do whatever. I got to know some really neat people. We met about three times a day in the smoking area. I still keep in contact with a few and exchange cards at Christmas with two of them. So it isn't all bad. Eamonn

Victory seems an odd word to use in Scouting. But that might just be me? I think a "Victory" would consist of someone or some group reaching a goal. If that is the case there would be big victories and some that might be viewed as not so big. The Scoutmaster might have a goal to see a percentage of the Scouts attend summer camp. He might put a lot of time and effort into promoting summer camp and in the end reach this goal. I was talking with a friend of mine who has been in Scouting for many many years, he had been working with a special needs lad and the lad had finally got it!! He was so happy and I would bet that the lad was even more so. You might call this a double victory. When I was a young leader I allowed my ego to "Lead my troop to victory" We had to win everything or to be honest I and I alone pushed the boys in the troop to win. One example of this was our district camp craft competition. I made up our "patrol" of all patrol leaders and our better campers. Yes we won. However the real victory was when we entered "Real" patrols and still won. We had a Scoutmaster in our district that was in his 80's. Pete. Pete was a small fellow. Never married and was the Scoutmaster of troop 133 Mt Pleasant Pa. for Lord knows how long. Over the years Pete had received most of the awards that a district and council can bestow on a leader. I thought it would be nice if we could get a James E.West in his name. I sent out a letter to all of his Eagle Scouts. We only needed $1,000.00. We got almost $6,000.00. However more then the money you ought to have seen the letters that these guys wrote. I presented him with the award and read the letters. There wasn't a dry eye in the house. About a year later Scouting Magazine was doing an acticle about innercity Scouting, they interviewed a Scoutmaster from Ohio, who was doing a really fine job. This Scoutmaster said it was all due to what he had learned from his Scoutmaster Pete Rice in Troop 133 Mount Pleasant. Sad to say Pete is no longer with us. Maybe our Victoty is the legacy that we leave. Eamonn

It seems that we come back to the Smoking topic a lot. Sad to report. Yes I'm still puffing away. Yes I could be the $200.00 a month to a better use. No that darn patch didn't work. And that relaxation music just got on my wick. And yes one day..... I will quit. Next stop is to try a hypnotist. Much as I hate to admit it. I am a "Hardcore" Smoker. You will find me outside in the dead of winter smoking. You will find me paying over the top for a drink that I didn't want in the Airport bar, because that is the only place to smoke. I don't smoke in your house unless you say it is ok. In fact if you don't smoke and you are in my house and you don't like it I won't smoke. I don't smoke in your car and won't smoke in mine if you are a non-smoker. In fact I don't smoke in Her That Must Be Obeyed car. I don't smoke near or around children and never where Scouts can see me. Not just because it is the rule. But I think it is not a good idea. If I see you smoking in front of Scouts, I will ask you not to. Because it is the rule. While I am an adult who is active in Scouting. I am by no means ready for sainthood. I try very hard not to let young people see me doing things that I regard as "Adult" I have never let a Scout see me drink an adult beverage or been around a Scout after drinking. Many of the older scouts know that I own a restaurant that sells alcohol. Just about everyone in the entire council knows of my addiction to cookies and donuts. (No I am not overweight -165 pounds.) At this time I can't think of any other "Evil Doings" that I am guilty of. I do agree that I am not the perfect role model for anyone. But who is? At this time I like to think that maybe I'm just trying to do my best. Eamonn

Maybe I was a bit testy on Friday. If I came off sounding rude. Please accept my apologies. I know that Bob White will tell me that we no longer use the term "Save Haven". Still I like it a lot and will continue to use it. Scouting is and should be a save haven. A place where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit. Maybe we can start here in these forums? Everyone who has posted is in agreement that "Re-testing" at the BOR is not a good idea. There is at times a need to make sure that the Scout does know the skill that someone has passed him on. We really do not a scout tying a Granny knot in place of a bowline. This is where program comes in. At the base of the rappelling tower or better still the troop meeting before everyone practices tying a bowline, if Timmy can't tie the knot his Patrol Leader goes over it with him. The Patrol Leader knows how to tie the knot because he practiced it at the PLC, with the SPL and the Scoutmaster. At the BOR,the Scoutmaster asks "How are you coming along with your knot tying? Timmy informs him that he used to have a problem with the bowline, but thats now history." I think if we adults were very honest and thought back to some of the skills that we "Passed" as young Scouts and no longer use. We would have a hard time. What we need to do is create an environment, where the program leads to advancement. Not where Advancement is the program. Where and when the program is balanced and active there will never be a need for "Retesting". Not at the BOR or any other place. Eamonn

Maybe I was a bit testy on Friday. If I came off sounding rude. Please accept my apologies. I know that Bob White will tell me that we no longer use the term "Save Haven". Still I like it a lot and will continue to use it. Scouting is and should be a save haven. A place where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit. Maybe we can start here in these forums? Everyone who has posted is in agreement that "Re-testing" at the BOR is not a good idea. There is at times a need to make sure that the Scout does know the skill that someone has passed him on. We really do not a scout tying a Granny knot in place of a bowline. This is where program comes in. At the base of the rappelling tower or better still the troop meeting before everyone practices tying a bowline, if Timmy can't tie the knot his Patrol Leader goes over it with him. The Patrol Leader knows how to tie the knot because he practiced it at the PLC, with the SPL and the Scoutmaster. At the BOR,the Scoutmaster asks "How are you coming along with your knot tying? Timmy informs him that he used to have a problem with the bowline, but thats now history." I think if we adults were very honest and thought back to some of the skills that we "Passed" as young Scouts and no longer use. We would have a hard time. What we need to do is create an environment, where the program leads to advancement. Not where Advancement is the program. Where and when the program is balanced and active there will never be a need for "Retesting". Not at the BOR or any other place. Eamonn

Bob is correct. The National Jamboree is a Boy Scout Jamboree. Boys who attend are in Troops. Of course there are opportunities for adults and Venturers to serve on staff. The Order of the Arrow had a super display at the last Jambo as did Ventuering. As for the Third Assistant Scoutmaster, I have the unenviable task of appointing one for our troop. All the Lads who have applied are really good, nice, super really keen and I like them all. All of them were in the Jamboree Troop that I served as Scoutmaster too last time. So far we have seven Lads and only one opening. I am trying to steer them to serving as a Staff member. OJ my little fellow (Size 12 Shoe) is going as a staffer. He has already applied and received a post card from the National Office. He wants to do something with bikes in one of the Action Areas. As for 2007, I will have to look up what the age group will be and get back to you. One strange fact. At the last World Jamboree there were more girls then boys. The age group for the World Jamboree is 14 - 17. It is a Scout Jamboree. At this time there are plans for only 40,000. I am not sure what happens in other Regions, but the North East Region does not allow Units to attend as a unit. It might be possible to Sign up a Crew to attend as part of the Service Team. Of course right now everyone in the UK is very busy with Eurojam. Which is very much like a "Dry Run" For the World Jamboree. You can sign up as a unit with permission from the BSA. Eurojam is in 2005. Both events are online. Eamonn(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I like what Mark has said. Sounds like some good old Uniontown horse sense!! Eamonn

Advancement = Program. Good Program = Good Advancement. Show me the need for "Re-testing? Have to admit to being a little taken back. I have been in Scouting for 40 years and only today did I learn that we are not in the education (teaching) business. There I was all this time thinking that everything we did was to help fulfill the aim of Scouting. This leads me to ask. If we have stopped trying to educate and are now in the "Put the kid on the spot" business. Something which I abhor. What happened to Scouting? Eamonn

Have to admit to having never heard of this Adult Patrol Coach. I looked at this thread last night. It is kind of strange as I have been thinking about the methods of Scouting and the boy led troop. (I am aware that I need to find a hobby.) The more I think about this Patrol Coach, the more I don't like it. I keep getting this mental picture of a gagged den leader. Then I have to ask why is this person with the troop? Sure it is hard training your Patrol Leaders. Maybe we need to look at what we are training them? Much as I don't want to I keep turning back to the Leadership Skills in the "Old" Wood Badge course. They are covered in the new course but I'm an old dog. If we think back we will see that the skills that we covered are the same as what we need to be passing on to our SPL, PLC, and Patrol Leaders. When Baden Powell wrote Scouting For Boys and Aids To Scoutmastership. I feel sure that he didn't mention Patrol coaches because they are not supposed to be there. Some of the stuff BP said: Scouting is a game for boys,under the leadership of boys. The Patrol system is the one essential feature in which Scouting differs from that of all other organizations, and where the system is properly applied, it ia absolutely bound to bring success. It cannot help itself. The Patrol is the unit for Scouting always, whether for work or for play, for discipline or for duty. An invaluable step in character building is to put the responsibility on to the individual. This is immediately gained in appionting a Patrol Leader. I think when there are "Watchdogs" looking over the patrols we are diminishing the role of the Patrol Leader. Also while there might be enough adults to go around in a small troop, when you get to large troops there is a problem. At one time we had 14 Patrols and only six active ASM's. Eamonn

Add google to the list Eamonn

jjjwis I have sent you a pm. www.meritbadge.com does have the information that you need Eamonn

At the risk of sounding like a know it all!! I think that you know what you need to do. Still if you wanted a smug answer like that you would never have asked. Please forgive me. The Board Of Review is not the place for "Re-Testing" We teach skills that need to be used or practiced. This is best done in a environment of fun and challenge. Learning a lashing in the church hall is ok. Building a Lookout Tower, puts the skill to use. Maybe the PLC needs to discuss ways of ensuring that every Scout is given the chance to put the "Tests?" Skills that he has been taught into practice. Maybe the Patrol Leaders need to brush up on their skills? I am not sure wha skills are being "Retested". I do feel that some adult equipped with a rope or a map and compass is not going to pass on any real education at a board of review. It is like trying to teach a pig to sing - You get no singing and it upsets the pig. Every now and then all of us "Old People" need to try and see the world through the eyes of the people that we serve. How does a young lad feel waiting for his board of review? Isn't one of the reasons for having a board of review to spur the lad on? While this is in most cases something that the Scoutmaster does, it might be worth while talking about it at a Troop Committee meeting. It might be worth remembering that A Scout Is Kind. Eamonn

I wish I could help. But like our Man Of Steele, I don't know the area. You might try looking up State Lands in your area on the net and see what they have to offer. Maybe some of the Scouters in your district would have an idea. Ask at your roundtable or give the district activities chair a call. I bet it looks great out your way at this time of the year maybe a "Off the cuff stroll" with a couple of adults and a few lads would be a place to start? Anyway Welcome to the forums. I wish that I could have been of more help. Eamonn

We have a District Camporee this weekend. I have some work to catch up on. I was off last week thanks to Wood Badge. I will try to go up for the campfire and Scouts Own. OJ is there so I may go up to Somerset and pick him up stopping for brunch at Seven Springs. Eamonn

I'm not sure how we got to here. Still. We have a small Scout Store in our Scout Service Center. The Lady who runs it is one of the most helpful and for some reason one of the most popular people in that building. As well as the store she looks after a lot of other stuff. Maybe I'm a little odd, but I have never really cared too much about the look of the uniform. I like to know that it is clean and in good shape. However it isn't something that I wear for its' looks. Not being an odd size, I can as a rule wear anything off the peg. However this past year or so here in my part of the world we have had a increase in the power of gravity. That or our donuts have smaller holes? In any case I have become a lover of the elastic band in the back. It is true that I have been heard to moan and groan about the cost of some of the uniform parts. Mostly when I have to fork out money for OJ's uniforms. One day he will stop growing!! Still I moan and groan when I fork out for soccer boots and other trendy gear. When I hear myself doing this. I try to remember how important the trendy gear was when I 15. I think how proud I am of him being the school captain of the soccer team. I try to think how much cheaper a Scout uniform is then all the bad stuff that he could be spending money on. When I look at it this way I soon settle my hash. Eamonn

It is the mission of the Boy Scouts of America to serve others by helping to install values in young people and in other ways prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime in achieving their full potential. It seems to me that we will never get near doing this if we are happy to not allow a lad to attend. To my way of thinking I want this lad in Scouting. I think that rather then spending time appointing blame at the lad. I would spend some time questioning where I went wrong or where the troop is not working right? Is the troop placing to much attention on the rank of Eagle? Stop Think Act Reflect. Eamonn

I think that the new outdoor skill training's are really good. They cover most of what you need to know to run a age appropriate program for the program that you are involved in. I have yet to see the new Weblos Scout Den Leader Training. As we are all aware Training never ends. One great thing about Scouts and Scouting is that each and everyone of us can bring something to the table. While we have the "Formal" training's one thing that I'm proud of is our new Scoutmaster summer camp meetings. At the start of the week we ask those who may have a skill if they would be willing to make a 30 minute presentation of a Scouting skill to the other leaders and invite all the adults in camp to attend. So far very few of the sessions have been done in the half hour and more often then not the presenters have a lot of follow up meetings. It could of course be due to the coffee, along with the chance to shoot the breeze with others. But so far it is working out well. Eamonn

It has been a while. I held to the idea that I (As a Scoutmaster)didn't have a lot to do at the Troop Meeting. So this was my minute. It was a very important part of the meeting. Also a part of every meeting. I'm not sure about "Easing them in." Try the Nike method! - Just do it. Eamonn