Eamonn

I think that I'm with FScouter on this. Yes there are the rules. Most of us or many of us know the rules and are aware of them. Some of us do things by the rules, however we do at times stray. I have a Heinz 57 pickle pin on my red wool jacket. I know it has no right to be there. It was given to me by a Wood Badge staffer many years ago. It is small enough to go unnoticed. I have one Scout shirt with one of the knots upside down. Yes it is glued and sewed on!! Many good Scouters that I know do have their red jackets covered with patches and there is an assortment of belts that people choose to wear. The penalty for not wearing the uniform can be not scoring very high on a uniform inspection or having someone look at you with raised eyebrows and then shake their head. I think that adding military patches to a Scout uniform is not a good thing. It isn't allowed but then nor is my pickle pin. Comes down to people in glass houses... Eamonn

I do have a campfire blanket that my Mother started for me many moons ago. OJ has a red felt vest that did at one time fit him. On my red wool jacket I wear the BSA patch on the pocket and a world jamboree patch on the back. It does have a non -approved pickle pin on the collar. I have amassed a lot of patches over the years these are tossed in Tupperware boxes. A while back we had a district camporee and the theme was Scouting as it was. We used stuff from old Scout Handbooks, Signaling and other good stuff. A pal of mine gave every Scout who attended one of his old Scout patches. Most were from district Camporees from in the day. I like that idea. Eamonn.

In a previous thread someone challenged the idea that Eagle Scout is a Rank. They changed the word rank to Award. I have looked in a number of places and see that it is the: Eagle Scout Rank. As a rule I normally refer to it as the Eagle Scout Rank. What are your feelings ? Eamonn

I have a hard time believing that any Scout Council is going to allow anyone to stay or work in an area where there is a known danger. I think that a group of armed Scouters is defiantly not the answer. If these animals are endangering humans I feel sure that there is a company or a group that could find some way of dealing with the problem.Much as I would hate to read the headline "Scout Attacked By Wild Dog." I would hate to read the headline "Scoutmaster Kills Scout By Mistake." Eamonn.

This might sound like a dumb question but .. The question is: So what about a judge that belongs to a church that doesn't approve of homosexual behavior or activity? Does this mean that he or she would have to step down? If this is the case there would be a lot of unemployed judges. Isn't that discrimination? Eamonn.

I fail to see where the OA or the Region Chief has lied. I would hope that we all remember that in this great country, along with a few others people are presumed innocent until proved guilty. That doesn't happen until there is a trial. I agree that if there was an effort to suppress this by not allowing newspapers to be sold, it was a silly effort and it clearly didn't work. I don't know Tim Wallace and have never met him. I do however feel sorry for him and his parents. I have no idea what really happened or didn't happen. I do think that for a young Lad /man to have gone so far in the OA as he has he must have put a lot of effort into it and I feel sure that his family and friends were very proud.This may no longer be the case. I would suggest that rather then feeling that the your honor has been offended you try and remember the Brotherhood of Friendly Service and take a couple of minutes to say a prayer for Tim, his family and his lodge. I kinda think that would be the kind thing to do. Let the courts decide if he is innocent or guilty. Right now he is a fellow brother that needs some help from the Big Fellow Upstairs. My son was at NOAC. From the calls that he made home and the E-mails that the Lodge Advisor sent me, it sounds as if all our guys had a great time and managed to get a lot of work done. Looking at the money he has gone through I think that OJ must have bought at least two of everything that they were selling. They were at six flags today and stop at Dayton Ohio tomorrow. He no sooner gets back then he is off to staff JLTC. Strange thing is that Her That Must Be Obeyed, thinks that this is great, but when I try and pull something like this I get the "Look". I am really looking forward to hearing all the details from his trip and spending what little time that he will be home with him. The house feels so empty when he isn't here. I suppose that is something that we will have to get used too soon. Eamonn (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

This makes the time we spend in the Laurel Highlands seem a little "Naff". Even if we follow the mountain bike trail to Ohiopyle and go white water rafting. Then hike on up to Seven Springs and slide down and stop in at Brady's for a fish sandwich. I think that I'd sooner be with you guys. Still I will make myself a pot of Kona coffee and cry in it. Eamonn

I think that I said that making up meaningless titles for positions of responsibility is wrong. Maybe I ought to have added that any meaningless title is wrong. Yes I have seen troops with four or five ASPLS and these are troops that don't use the patrol method. However we as adults are there to help the Scout reach his goal. Before a Scout runs for an office or agrees to take on a POR. He meets with the SM who explains what the job is. The Scout knows what is expected of him. If the troop meeting is on Monday and the Scout knows that for the next six months he is busy doing something on Mondays, he really isn't a candidate for SPL. Maybe he could still do the job of Quartermaster or be a Den Chief. We work with each Scout to help him reach his goals no matter what age he is. Eamonn.

I don't know what numbers are used to come up with this 5%? The skills needed to become a First Class Scout, form the groundwork or the foundation for all the good stuff that there is to come. Sadly in a lot of troops, the Scouts don't really learn this stuff and there isn't any good stuff coming where they can put these skills to work.Without this good stuff the program isn't a good program. To my mind too many leaders are forgetting that Outdoors is a method of Scouting. This entails a lot more then a week spent at the same old Council ran Summer Camp and attending the District Camporees. While the requirements don't say that you have to really put the skills learned on the way to First Class to a lot of use. These skills are the backbone of the outdoor program. The idea of having our Scouts acquire these skills in 12 - 18 months, is so that they can move on to use these skills for bigger and more exciting activities. I don't have a problem with an adult explaining to a Scout what is needed to reach the rank of Eagle Scout. Pointing out what the required merit badges are and explaining that maybe he ought to think about doing these when the opportunity arrives. This person might also act as a resource, finding different projects that are available in the community that could be used for the leadership project. He could also explain the job description for the POR's and help the Scout decide which one of these he is best suited for and maybe work with the Scout to establish goals in this area. I do however think this ought to be left with the SM. Advancement is a method of Scouting and we need in our programs to find the right balance when putting these methods to use. There will be times in a troop when the Patrol method works like a charm. There will be times when it falls flat on it's face. We can at one time have a group of Scouts that are so busy that making the outdoor program work is next to imposable. The same can be said for advancement. There are times when a group of very competitive Scouts will join and go all out for advancement. Some Scouts just don't care about advancing. They just love Scouting for the camping and outdoor stuff. These Eagle guys are OK with me. As long as they remember that it is not their Eagle Scout rank. That belongs to each Scout as does the decision to whether the Scout wants to make becoming an Eagle Scout a goal or not. Eamonn.

Me thinks we have passed this way before. Trying to slow a Scout down by using sly or back-door tactics is just as wrong as doing it out in the open.The Eagle rank belongs to the Scout, not the troop or the Leaders. When all is said and done each Scout will know in his heart if he really met the requirements or not.Surely it is our job as adults in Scouting to help and support each Scout in his efforts? When it comes to Leadership or positions of responsibility. There has to be a meeting of the minds. We understand that in any POR or Leadership position that there is an expectation of getting the job done. It falls on us as adults to train and support each Scout to help him get the job done. We are there to work with each individual Scout and help him set goals and do everything we can to help him meet these goals. Some Scouts will need a lot of help and support while others will not need any. Sure a 13 year old SPL will need a lot more help then a 17 year old. But each and every Scout has different needs and that is why we are there. I agree that making up titles for meaningless POR's is not helping anyone. Again this comes down to people wanting to re-write the Scouting program to suit or fit their own wants and needs. Again this is not being done by the Scout. In fact a miss use of the program like this could if it was brought out at an Eagle Scout BOR be grounds for the Scout not completing the board. If I was on the board and found out that a troop was miss using the program in such a way. You can be sure that the advancement chair in the unit would benefit from my understanding of the program and how they had let the Scout down. Eamonn.

I hope that we would all say a few words to the Big Fellow upstairs for these two boys. I feel sure that things at home must be very strained. I know that they would be in our house. Of course I have no idea what goes on in other peoples homes. I am still coming to grips with the fact that "A Scout is to be trusted" While there are some Scout laws that you can just do. Some of them you have to earn. Sure you can be kind and you can be obedient and reverent. But things like Trust and loyal you have to work and earn. Sad to say as of this minute I don't think that I could trust these guys. Kids have a strange way of wording things. Most will rarely admit that they have lost something. How often have I heard the yell "Someone stole my socks!!" or even "Someone stole my underwear!!" This of course is funny. It isn't so funny when the lost item is of value. I don't know what I would feel if these Lads were at the Jamboree and someone couldn't find something of value. I have some hard thinking to do. Eamonn

Raffles and games of chance are a definite No No. While I have attended functions - Mainly Blue and Gold Banquets that have ran 50/50's and have even seen the Scout Exec. Buy a ticket!! This guy gives a whole new meaning to"A Scout is thrifty." These games of chance don't upset me. But I feel that they do send the wrong message to our youth members. At one pack Blue and Gold they do the cake auction. One of the Dads in the pack is a very good Chef. He used to work for me. He makes a cheese cake which is to die for. Her That Must Be Obeyed, seen the cheese cake that he had made and wanted it. We won the bid $36.00 for the cheese cake. Was it worth $36.00? It was to Her That Must Be Obeyed. I have to admit to taking very small bites. Still when we sold his cheese cake in the restaurant, we got $3.75 a slice, so it wasn't really that much over the top. Eamonn

I have talked with the Scout Exec. He is not going to take any action, at this time he is happy to leave it with the unit. The Scoutmaster is a good guy, in fact he is an ASM for the Jamboree. I am not prepared to take these Lads to the Jamboree. While I am upset and mad about what they have done. I am able to put all my emotions to one side and I am left with the fact that these Lads have at this time shown that they can't be trusted. I of course live in hope that they will change. However we start regular Jamboree Troop meetings in the next few weeks and I think that I would have a hard time dealing with these Lads in a fair and unbiased way. I know that the problem is mine, maybe in time they will regain my trust. As it is right now they don't have it. Eamonn.

The rule is wrong. It will never stand up to a appeal if one was made to National. You might want to have a word with the Council Advancement Chair. He needs to put this guy back on the right track. I have no idea where people come up with this stuff? I wonder, do they wake up one day and say to themselves "Hey I have nothing to do today. What shall I do today? I know - I think that I will rewrite the programs of the Boy Scouts Of America!! OK -I'll start with the uniforms - No need for them pants, heck I'm not keen on the socks. Next I'll take on the advancement. When I was a Scout, we did REAL SCOUTING. For my project we built ten city parks, we carried all the material by hand uphill through the snow and we were so poor that..." There are some Scouts who whiz through the requirements, some start off with a sprint and slow down and some never make it to the rank of Eagle Scout. This doesn't make them any less of a Scout. Many of the best Leaders that I know only made it to Life Scout. I would be very tempted to grab a big pair of scissors and threaten to cut this guys Wood Badge off unless he gets with the program and sticks to the program. Eamonn.

that grill takes a long time!! Welcome to the forum. Eamonn

FOG is right a volunteer can be removed. Your troop is right in thinking that the COR is the "Top Dog" in a unit. While there isn't very much that can be done to change the personality of a person. You can do a lot in how you get along with them. It would be a super world if we all got along with each other all the time. Sad to say I don't see it happening anytime soon. We are however Scouts and as such we have made an oath to do our best to "Help other people at all times and keep the Scout Law." As to why do people wear so many hats? If we think about it, it's because we let them. When someone doesn't step up to the plate, very often we don't go out of our way to find the best person for the job.We allow a warm body to fill the position. One of the hardest parts of being a Leader is having to say the No word. While we must never try to be unkind, there are times when due to various reasons: Lack of training, lack of skill, or having the wrong attitude, the team leader has to reign the person in. Sometimes a gentle nudge is all that is needed, sometimes some sort of training or re-training is needed and sad as it may be sometimes the person is just the wrong person for that particular job and even if he or she is a volunteer we have to let them down as kindly and as gently as is possible. This can be really hard if the person "Above" you has the idea that the person is doing a wonderful job. We had a man in the District that would volunteer to do just about anything and everything. He would attend the committee meetings at the council and spout out all the great things that he was going to do. The guys in the office were very impressed. They questioned when they noticed that the nominating committee didn't put his name forward. The truth was that the guy wasn't doing anything. One way that I have found to get things "Done" is to work with the person or the committee and set goals. Normally in our case they are 30 day goals, as we meet about once a month. I then hold that person accountable for meeting the goal. Before the time is up I talk or meet with them to see how they are getting along. At times I have found myself getting upset and saying things like "This isn't good enough." Or asking "What's the matter, why wasn't his done - You said that..." After a while the message gets home. If it doesn't then I have to explain to the person that this isn't working out and that I need people that can be trusted to keep their word. Eamonn.

Sad to say those that need it the most never return. These guys knew everything before they went the first time and were so busy telling everyone that was the case that they didn't hear or listen to anyone. Some Leaders return every third year others wait for five. A lot of times these guys and Girls will get talked into helping out at a course and become members of the training team. Doing all this in one hour a week can be tough at times!! Eamonn

We only offer this training once a year. Mainly because we don't get that many people taking it and we have a priest as the person in charge. As you know at present priests are stretched to the limit. It sounds as if you are just too late for one and way too early for the next. Still all good things come to those who wait. I wanted a baby brother and I'm still waiting. Eamonn.

The Troop back home was very diverse, with lots of names that came from the "Old Country". Yes I got one, that people have a hard time with. No one can spell it and it's easy to know who the telemarketers are by the way they try to pronounce it. Where I'm at now we have a lot of Polish names some seem to contain every letter in the alphabet at least once. The last Jamboree Troop was strange we had six Nathan's and two Nathanial's. I wanted to call them all Nate but they weren't going for it. This next Jambo we have a little Lad, who when his Scoutmaster told me that the Lad was going he informed me that he had the same name as me. When I checked he is a Amin. Eamonn.

I agree with those who are for giving these Scouts another chance. As one who has served in a troop that didn't serve the social elite. I have had to take a group of Scouts back to town after a shoplifting spree. I have been a character witness in juvenile court more times then I want to count. What I forgot to mention in my posting that both of these Lads were on Camp Staff. While I know that I shouldn't try and guess what the Scout Exec, Will do. He is a nice enough chap but does seem to always go for the easy way out. It seems that these Lads stole: Cash, knives and Cd's. When they were caught they were fired from the Camp Staff and their parents were called to come and fetch them. I might try talking to the Scout Exec. He is for ever telling me that it is "My District." (Nice Chap, but he has a lot to learn - I will have to talk to his Wood Badge ticket counselor!!) He might let me "Have a go at them" If so I will try and meet with them and their parents. Of course after being fired from camp they might feel to ashamed to want to come back. Both these Lads are from good families and a really good troop. I have no idea what I would do if my son had done something like this. The good Lord knows that I love the heck out of him, as I'm sure the parents of these Lads love them. There does have to be some consequence for doing this sort of thing. I feel that they must be feeling bad about everything and that ride home with their parents couldn't have been easy for the boys or the parents. I am just so upset. I am having such a hard time coming to grips that they could do something this out and out stupid. I feel sad for them and sad for their parents. I really do hope that there is some way or that something can be done to keep them in Scouting. Eamonn.

Two Scouts from troops in the District that I serve have been caught stealing at Summer Camp. While I don't know them that well I do know them.Both were / are signed up to attend the Jamboree. The Scout Exec. has been on vacation and I don't know what action he might want to take. I also don't know what action the chartered organizations might want to take. One Lad I only know to see. The other is a real nice kid. A cheerful, cocky Lad. In fact I was kinda hoping hat he would get elected to be the SPL for the Jamboree. He took JLTC last year, he seemed to a natural leader. I will have little or no say in what happens to these Lads. I will of course abide by whatever the Scout Exec. And the Chartering Organizations decide. Still I can't help feeling mad and upset that these guys have let themselves down. It really does pee me off. How the heck could they be so dumb? I feel sure that they will be asked to leave Scouting, by the Scout Exec. I am in two minds if this is the right thing to do. Man oh man does it upset me when a good kid turns around and does something this ..... GRR!! Eamonn.

Three of our four Districts do these with a member from the District Advancement Committee present. In the other district it is done by members of the Advancement Committee with a member of the home troops committee present. Eamonn. PS. Our district is the odd one? We hold BOR's the second Tuesday of each month.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

It would seem to me that there is a break down of communication at the adult leadership level that needs to be looked at. The last thing we want to do is embarrass a Scout. Even if this was an error the SM ought to have caught it when he met with the Scout at the Scoutmaster conference. I can see where the committee will need to take action to ensure that the Scoutmaster is doing his job. Eamonn.

Not trying to hijack the thread but... I agree that Districts do need all the help that they can get. Most of the Districts I know would welcome all the help that is offered. I would hasten to add that this is fine as long as it isn't putting a hurting on the unit. I really do not want to bring up the "My Unit" Or the "Unit that I serve." dialog again. I do think that if we all viewed what we do for Scouting as severing the needs of the youth. We might be able to get past thinking that one position ranks higher then another. I like to think that we all do what we can to meet the needs of the youth. Sure I would love to be back in a unit with the youth, but I can't guarantee that I will be able to make a weekly meeting. This doesn't make me any worse then the Den Leader that is working with the Den week in and week out. Just because I serve on the District level doesn't make me any better. If someone is serving in a position that they really dislike, I would strongly suggest that they find something else that they would enjoy doing. Eamonn.

No good trainer worth his salt is going to stand up and just read from his notes. He has I hope gone over the syllabus many times and seen what the high points are and will cover these. Also if the trainer is any good he will get a feel for the group and do what he can to meet the needs of the group. I agree with FOG, someone just reading from a script is not the way to go about it. I think that if the trainer really feels that the participants need to know something word for word that is the time for a handout. Again nothing is worse then a having a handout and then having the guy read it word for word. One of the reasons why the training becomes so rushed is because presenters run over. Running over is OK if learning is taking place. However, I have seen a guy get up to make a presentation wearing a campaign hat and talk for twenty minutes about his darn hat. The main thing about any training is that all the objectives are met. These are very clearly laid out in the syllabus. My thinking is that these have to be met. It is sad that we can't teach the participants everything that there is to know about Scouting in a training course. My answer to that is that I have been playing this game for a very long time and I'm still learning. In Cub Scouting there is in the perfect pack a Pack Trainer, who like the Den Leader Coach could and should be on hand to offer help and guidance on the stuff that the packs do. Things like Den Doodles and Cub Bucks. Just as no two units are the same no two Trainers are the same. Each has some part of the training that they really like to bring home. A friend of mine who is about the best Cub Scout Trainer that I ever met has two sons that are very big for their age. One also has ADD. She really goes to town on "Ages and Stages." This is her thing. Our present Council Training Chair. Seems to race through the " Paperwork." Session in Boy Scout Fundamentals and use the time for the "Methods Of Scouting." presentation. I think that the New Leader Essentials Course is a good idea and most of the course is good. I don't like the group splitting into the three groups to look at the Cub Scout, Boy Scout and Venturing outing. I don't like it because we have far more Cub Scout people there then anyone else and so few people from Venturing. Still that might change in time or be different in other areas. I'm not that keen on the bridge either. But that's just me. I still use the bridge, because it is in the syllabus. Eamonn.