Eamonn

It might be a good idea to have a chat with your Unit Commissioner he ought to be able to put you in touch with the person who presents the Troop Committee Training in your district. I would also have a few words with the Charter Rep along with the other members of the committee. It sounds to me as if this Lad is in need of a friendly kick in the pants. It also seems as if the PLC needs a lot of help and support. Eamonn.

Here in our great commonwealth of Pennsylvania it is illegal for a Minister to perform a marriage when either the bride or the groom is drunk. (Hic) Eamonn.

I am singing Rod Stewart songs already!! Did you know that Sailing by Rod Stewart is the only song in the BBC Charts to make it to number one twice. The second time was while it was the opening song on a documentary about the HMS Ark Royal, the aircraft carrier. Eamonn PS It was "Our song" when Her That Must Be Obeyed and self were on different sides of the pond. Cute - Don't you think?

Can't help thinking that when I read some of what has been posted just how lucky I am. Many thanks OGE for your posting. Kenk, I wish that I had some wise words or could tell you that the answer is in the big book of Scouting (Yes there are books the deal with Scouts with disabilities.)Sad to say I don't. I am unsure if any of the support groups out there deal with his matter. I agree with wojauwe. My only advise is for you to keep your chin up and Do Your Best. Eamonn.

A scout who becomes an Eagle Scout has had to have had met the requirements. If he hasn't then it is the fault of a great number of adults. Do kids make mistakes? - Yes of course they do. Do kids who have just graduated make mistakes? - Again yes. While we would hope that a boy who has been and maybe still is in a Scouting program and holds the rank of Eagle Scout, would be less prone to make mistakes. They are going to. The boys in this underage drinking party made a mistake. They will be punished in what ever way the state they live in deals with this sort of thing.Still we know from working with people in this age group they are going to try "New" things, they are going to experiment with new things. We know that unlike when they were little Lads we are not going to be there to hold their hand and that some of what they may experiment could kill them. Sticking a kid in a Scout uniform and allowing him the opportunity to work through the Advancement program is hopefully going to provide him with the tools to not get into trouble. But how many of us if we were to be really honest are known as being good, because we were lucky - Lucky that we never got caught. Scouts, even Eagle Scouts are not Angels. Eamonn

Scouts getting a bad rap? I suppose a lot depends on who you ask. There are a lot of people who think that Scouts are great. I was in getting a haircut the other day and the guy cutting my hair asked me how long I had been involved and this started an open discussion. Everyone in the shop was in total agreement that Scouts and Scouting is great. This was a place where a haircut still costs five bucks and where the owner goes to the local hospital every Sunday and does haircuts for free. Talk to the proud parents of a Scout being awarded the rank of Eagle Scout. I very much doubt if they will give Scouts a bad rap. I have been working with some Judges, everyone of them think that Scouting and the Scouting programs are great and feel if we could get more youth involved they wouldn't have as many youth to deal with. Have a chat with the Lads coming off the trek at Philmont. I bet that not one of them will give Scouting a bad rap. You can look in these forums and you will find a couple of people who don't have a kind word to say about the BSA. In many cases the people who give Scouting a bad rap, don't like something that Scouting stands for or is against or they don't know very much about the programs of Scouting. We need to at the unit level, district level and council level do a better job of marketing. It seems a shame that the local soccer team with 15 or 16 boys can be the headline in the local paper and a district camporee with 150 boys isn't even in the paper. Sad to say there is another group that gives Scouting a bad rap. These are the Boys and Girls that were in and quit. We need to make sure that we are keeping the promise that is made to them in the Scout Handbook. Eamonn

I am not so sure about taking away the Eagle Scout rank that this boy earned. Sure what he and the adults have done is both foolish and wrong. Sure the media have played on the fact that he is an Eagle Scout and this has put Scouting in a poor light. But where was the media when he was working on his project? I don't know the workings of the National Board of Review. I do know that I am glad that I don't serve on it. Eamonn. PS Wouldn't "Never ever get in trouble for the rest of your life." Amount to adding to the requirements?

You must be a lot nicer then I am. Sure we need to train the new people. But as to being sensitive to the old Scouters. That isn't in my job description. I have a job to do and goals to meet, I am going to surround myself with the best possible people available and get the job done and meet the goals. I don't work alone, I have the nominating committee and other members of the key3. The older Scouters work for their Chartering Organizations, I work for the Council and the district. Sure we are there to support the units. But I don't have time to pander to what older Scouters think. In fact I couldn't care less. Eamonn.

When selecting people to sit on the district committee. The nominating committee goes out of their way not to select active unit people. Not because we don't like them, but because we work for them. Sure we need people who know the program to do some of the stuff that needs to be done.But the best units have leaders that deliver the program, show up at Roundtable and don't need our help. The paths that people take to end up on a district or council committee are varied. Many of the people who are active in units see the non-Scouting people as the "Suits."There seems to be some sort of discrimination against these people.Sure they may not have the outdoor skills and have worked with youth in the program. I don't need people with them sort of skills on the district committee. I need them skills in the unit. Some of these non Scout types are brought on to the committee not so much for what they know, but for who they know. The Bank President who serves on the Finance Committee may not be able to tie a square knot. He does know enough people in the community and what people in the community to ask to help with the FOS Campaign. Our Membership Committee Chair. Has never been a Scout or Scouting volunteer before but as a school superintendent, he does wonders working with the schools. When he phones the school he rarely gets put on hold. I have been active at both the district and council level for a number of years. Still there is some stuff that may be going on in different areas that I don't know about and have never asked. Our council endowment fund has a lot of money in it. It is invested in various stocks and bonds. Sure I get the report of how it is performing and what the return was. I have no idea where the money is invested. It might be in Coors Beer!! I don't know and for the most part don't care. I trust those that are managing it. Strange as it may seem the guy in charge is a Holder of the Distinguished Eagle, yet by many he is seen as one of the "Suits." There is a lot of things happening in a council and a district. There are no secrets if someone wants to know all they have to do is ask the right person in the right way. Some decisions are easy. Some that may have far reaching effects are hard. Very few of these are made by someone shooting from the hip. They are discussed and debated within committee and then taken to the Executive Board where they are discussed and debated again. It would be a lie to say that some things which seemed like a good thing or The Answer at the time, don't at a later date turn around and bite us in the tail. There is a term for that which I'm not going to use in these forums. Packsaddle, in my book if the pack in which you serve is delivering the program. That is all that I want you to do. Keep on keeping on, it helps both the council and the District if you would support them by selling popcorn and allowing the FOS presenter to do his thing. Eamonn.

1/Most: The time and effort that so many put into the programs offered. Least: Where does the Patrol Method go??? 2/ We as an organization need to take a look at what summer camp is all about? Is it a place to earn Merit Badges and maybe have some fun? Or is a place to have fun and maybe pick up a couple of merit badges? (I think the answer is in the Vision statement of the BSA.) 3/ Going to cheat and give two answers. Give those that attend the chance to try new and different activities just for the sake of trying them. Also more emphasis on the Patrol Method. 4/ Why ask a question and then answer it yourself? However the people working at camp do need more training. Or we need to pay better wages in order to attract people that are more qualified. As long as we are dealing in quantity the quality is going to suffer. 5/ While at our council camp troops do have the option of cooking for themselves. Most don't because of the time spent rushing from class to class. Looking at the troops that do cook it seems that the adults are doing all the cooking.Feeding 200 or more people at a time is never easy. Finding menus that are kid friendly is really hard. 6/ No 7/ Most troops run fund raising events. Parents pick up the balance. Scoutmaster is free and there is a scale of how many free leaders to how many Scouts. 8/ The Staff seems to be getting younger. They seem very keen to do their best. Could be that our expectations of a 15 or 16 year old are too high. 9 & 10/ Will do later. Eamonn

I am not sure what is going on in other lodges. But while we have some adults that are active in the lodge many if not most are like myself. A step or two above "Flap Wearer." Most adults in our Lodge are busy doing what they can serving the youth in the units that they are in or the district. Making time to get to the weekend meetings can at times be really hard. To be honest in all my time serving at the district level. I have never considered using the OA as a resource.Sure many of the Commissioners are Lodge Members, but when they help a unit I tend to think that they are wearing their commissioner hat. Apart from a Nature Walk that the Lodge has every year nearly everything else they do has to do with the Council owned camp sites. As we don't employ a full time Ranger a good deal of the time that is put in is in the maintenance department. Sure there are activities within the Lodge that need to be promoted as well as the work weekends there is the annual banquet,conclaves and NOAC. Some of the officers attend training's. Still the Lodge is seen as a force at the camp and for camping not as a force in the unit or the district. Please don't think what I'm posting is right. It is just as it is. I don't think that there is the man power to change this and I'm unsure if the structure is in place. Could be that old fogies like myself need to change their mindset. Eamonn.

Hi Beth, Welcome to the forums. Sounds like a super time was had by all and the Camp Site is outstanding. With OJ being away at camp this week, Her That Must Be Obeyed and self had more time to chat with each other. Heck we even done the washing up by hand and talked like we used to when we were first married. I'm still try to work out if Kids or dishwashers have killed the art of conversation? Anyhow,next year he is off to the Jamboree. He will be 17. While he will still be a Boy Scout,thinking about it he hasn't had a bad run and Scouts and Scouting has held his attention. He still has plans for other stuff that he wants to do and intends to do.In fact I can't wait to see where this ride takes him /us. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

While I am full of the highest of praises for what your Lodge is doing. I think that I must be missing something. How is the OA Rep at the troop level involved? Eamonn

I don't see the problem if this is a council fund raiser. While I agree that it does seem outrageous at first glance. However I think that everybody and anybody who buys a glass would understand that it is a donation. Just like the $175.00 a plate dinner or the $600.00 golf outing. I hear that the BSA is re-recording the Rolling Stones "You Don't Always Get What You Want." with new lyrics. The new lyrics will go something like: You don't always get what you pay for You do always get, what we sell. And if you try sometimes you might just find you help those in need. (I love that song.) Eamonn.

"Isn't it nice to know...." No it isn't nice to know. Wouldn't it be better if the Council was spending time supporting the units not worrying about legal and finances? Eamonn.

Tamegonit Arrowman, Many thanks for the description. However you failed to say if you call out or tap out? The ceremony you describe is very similar to the way some old time Scouts used to describe Wood Badge. Do you think that there is a reason for this? Eamonn.

I fear that you are right about your expectations. We have over 100 Troops and while the election thing is working. It is a sad fact that even some of the adults see the OA and the Council as two different bodies. (Yea I know it's not right!!) Many of the Scouts see their membership in the OA as something that is only real or needed at the OA weekends or meetings. As for the OA helping troops I have never seen it happen and am not sure how it would go about it without stepping on the toes of the Commissioners and the District types!! I would be interested to hear how you think the OA could or does help troops. Eamonn.

When I seen this on Friday. I saw the question and the answer that Bob gave. Which was and is right. I have a copy of the document in fact it is two documents that were in question. I know that they are some where and I know that they are a 1998 printing. So they are just taking up space where ever they are. Sad to say jkhny (Do you mind if I call you JK?)the document that you are asking about is not going to be of much help. I am hoping that Neil will join in this thread at some time. Being as he serves as a Vice- President in a council. I am not really sure what you are looking for? If you are looking for a way to dismiss or fire the Scout Executive. He serves at the pleasure of the Executive Board. They are elected at the Annual meeting. All Charter Reps are invited to this meeting and can vote. Sad as you may find it once these guys are in suits or no suits they are in for a year. Firing a Scout Exec. Is not something to be taken lightly and can be very costly. Especially if he decides to file an unfair dismissal suit.I feel sure that the Gentleman from the great state of New Jersey will agree legal fees can be very high. In our Council there was a parting of the ways with a Scout Exec. It wasn't very nice. We ended paying him a big lump sum and the Council was put on probation by the Region for a year. Of course I have no idea why the property is being sold. But if things were done correctly it isn't the Scout Exec. Who is selling it or who has sold it. It is or was the Executive Board. There are times when unpopular decisions are made. In fact I have just gone through something similar but on a much smaller scale. For the first time ever we as a council hired an outside company to take care of the food service at camp. There were many reasons for this. Being as we had them we no longer needed the guy who was in charge of the kitchen. In fact he was one big reason why we hired the food service company. This guy is active in the OA serves as a volunteer. He wasn't very happy and soon he and his friends circled their wagons. There were all sorts of threats and talk of boycotts. None of which came to light. Of course this guy still isn't a happy camper and is still "Bad mouthing" The Council, the camping committee and those of us who met with the food service company. I have been accused of taking a bribe!! I feel sure in time that this will pass. However in the light of how he has acted I feel sure that he will never be asked to serve the council again. For my part I sure as heck would never ask him to do anything for me not now and not in the future. Maybe just maybe this is what is happening with some of the long time volunteers in your council?? JK, while I sure that you are a very nice chap and you are doing what you see is in the best interest of the youth in your council. It is very hard to change the decision of an Executive Board. I would hope and kind of think that they didn't make their decision in the dark. While the courts might be able to offer some satisfaction. Boycotting efforts that support the council will only hurt the people that you want to help most - The Youth Members. While it would be more then a little presumptuous for me to tell you what to do. I (Wait for it) would think long and hard before you take any action that is going to hurt our kids. At present in our Council we have a little over 10,000 youth and a budget of $1.2 Million. A bad popcorn sale and some of the services we offer will have to be cut. Eamonn.

As many in these forums know we have a female DE. In fact Pam is a senior DE. Sad to say she is leaving Scouting sometime before the end of this year. There are many reasons why she is leaving. The big one is that she no longer needs the money. The other big reason is that she can't stand the Field Director. Pam has been with us going on eight years. There was some apprehensions about how well a female would "Go over with the old time Scouter's." But there has never been a problem. I was a Assistant District Commissioner, for the first few months of her employment and then became District Commissioner. Together we have made up two thirds of the key3. We have made Quality District six times and seen the District grow in both membership and in the finances that we raise. She is a very likable sort and everyone seems to get on with her. She has been very fortunate. Her Son is an Eagle Scout, who was a Scout in what was at that time one of the best Troops in the District. When she first came on board the then District Chairman, really knew what Scouting and what part the District played in Scouting was and is all about. She made very good friends with her instructors at PDL training and has kept in contact with them as well as introducing them to me. Which has led to us all not only sharing fun and good times, but it is handy when I get confused to know that they are only a call away. We have become the very best of friends, we share everything. We know stuff about each other that has nothing to do with Scouting and have seen each other through the good times and the bad. We have been the best team ever. Even though she is no longer going to be an employee of the BSA, she has said that she will come back as a volunteer for the District. I don't think that there has been any discrimination from the volunteers. Although I did get very upset when I heard people saying that she wouldn't make it through the week at the old Boy Scout Wood Badge course. Needless to say she did. I like to think that in some ways I have played a part in informing our leaders what the DE is there for and making them understand that there are people that they need to talk too before they call her. Of course over the years she has gained a better understanding of and about the programs. Still I very much doubt if she knows what the requirements for First Class Scout are. But I told her that she didn't need to know. We have people who are there to deliver the program. They are the ones that need to know that stuff. Pam has never wanted to leave this area, so has gone about as far as she would have gone career-wise. Sad to say I think and I know that I might be wrong and I'm allowing my dislike for the guy to cloud mu judgment. But I think the eagerness of the Field Director, to make a name for himself and make himself promotable is one reason why she is leaving. While I am aware that a lot of the stuff that he does is done under orders from above. To my mind the guy is a twit and is hurting Scouting and the people that we are here to serve. Eamonn.

I never gave any thought to the idea that not everyone in the USA, didn't have the same vacation time as our kids do. Back in the Dark Ages when I was a Scout, we only had six weeks in the summer. When I first joined the troop as a Scout this caused a problem. Most Troop Summer Camps were two weeks and from about the age of 7 or 8, my parents used to put me on the train to spend the summer in Ireland. Looking back I must have seemed a bit like Paddington Bear. I think that we spend about the same amount of days in School as American kids do. But we had all sorts of time off during the year. Three weeks at Easter, two or three days off for half term. A week off for Full Term,a long time off for Christmas. I am not sure why Summer Camp was two weeks. I think it had a lot to do with families not taking family vacations. (They couldn't afford it?)Or if they went away they went at the same time as the troop did leaving their son with the troop. There was no such thing as organized council camps. We normally took the PLC away at Easter and checked out where we would spent the summer. This might be in the field of a friendly farmer or at a camp site. Still the feeding and program were down to the troop. I remember (Please don't tell anyone) smuggling a side of Danish bacon and two frozen New Zealand lambs into Holland. I hid them in with the tents. Talk about setting the example!! Another year we gave each Scout a suit case full of the worst tasting dehydrated meals, which I'm sure were mostly textured vegetable protein. Along with his kit he had this case strapped with bungee cords to a set of wheels. Worked fine till the case started to slip off. The best part of all that was that we were camping in Switzerland and there was a BSA troop from a military unit stationed in Germany. They took pity on us and fed us in this big army kitchen. They also had Leaders that were specialists in doing stuff in the snow. They took our older scouts out to climb glaciers and up into the high Alps. This was my first taste of American Scouting. It was then that I decided that I wanted to find out more about American Scouting. One year later I came over here for a summer. I think it is fair to say that these American Scouter's really showed us what this World Brotherhood is all about and that it does work. I am still in contact with a good number of the Lads who spent that summer in Switzerland. They still pull my leg about the suitcases and the dehydrated food. But nearly everyone of them say it was and still is the best summer that they have ever spent - Anywhere. Eamonn.

Looking at what KS posted. The two stoves do just about reach with the T. However when you butt them back to back the hose on one of them is a long streach. If you could turn that stove around , so both stoves were facing the same way the hose is fine but the stove controls are on the "Inside" If you get what I mean. ( Both stoves facing forward) I will have a look around the Coleman Site today. Eamonn.

On the Troop Equipment list. It asks for an Lantern Electric with battery. I think this is just another better safe then sorry item. As you can imagine a fire in a city of tents would be a catastrophe. It wasn't a big deal not having gas lights at the last jambo. In fact some of the Scouts said that I was better looking when it was dark. Eamonn.

Worse still not even a power outlet where the Scouts can recharge their cell phones!! (That was a joke!!) Eamonn

Thanks for the kind words Bob. I do think that it is worth mentioning that we don't go out of our way to agree with each other. I remember when I first came along to the forum that I said that it would be a joy to have someone with your knowledge on the District Committee. I still stand by that. I feel sure that anyone who spends any amount of time in the forum does over time form their own opinion about the value of what is posted and rightly or wrongly a opinion of the person who is posting. Unc. Made the point this week that the backspace key is a good tool. Sure there are times when I wished I had used it more. However somethings are just so far out it is untrue. Remember the Lady who wanted to track Scouts bowel movements at Summer Camp? Yes I know hat my reply could have and should have been a lot kinder and I was and am guilty of not living up to out Scout Law and Oath. Sure there are times when I sit here and shake my head when someone asks a question and you give them the answer and to my way of thinking their answer ought to be "Thank You" But instead the answer is a heated and sometimes nasty debate. There is lots of room for debate. As most people know I'm not a great lover of Troop Rule Books. Needless to say I think that I'm right. I am not so dogmatic as to think that everyone who has such a thing is a complete blithering idiot. I try to stay out of the politics forums, mainly because I think this is a Scouting forum. However I do read them and at times am drawn into the debate. Eamonn.

I have been trying to get all the kinks worked out of my plans for the Jamboree. We will start holding regular Troop meetings in September. So there is a lot of planning needed. As I was going through the web site and the news letters I came across this Emergency Preparedness Award. If this isn't new I missed it completely last time. You can find it at: http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/resources/10-290/ The Merit Badges ought not be a problem. I am going to have to work on finding out who in our area does a emergency preparedness program. Also need to have the Scouts work on a jamboree travel emergency kit. I will work on the plan for the troop. Think we will need an extra meeting or even two meetings to cover all this stuff. Eamonn.