Eamonn

The Troop Guide can not be assigned to the patrol he or she was in." ? Think this is a long standing old wives tale. That has been around so long that a lot of people take it to be true. Troop Guides are assigned to the patrol where the Course Director feels they will do the most good. I never gave what Patrol they were in as a participant a second thought. There are a lot more important matters to worry about. While the critters are a lot of fun, they must never get in the way of what the course is all about. I feel sure that if the powers that be, became aware that the critters were taking away from passing on the skill of leadership. They would be gone. In fact if you went and took Wood Badge at Gilwell Park or any where in the UK other than a Transatlantic Council course they have already gone to the happy land. Eamonn. American Bear.(NE-CS-58) UK Cuckoo (Early 70's)

If someone has a problem.It needs to be a specific problem. They need to know what they want. There are channels that need to be followed. Normally if there is a something that is making a volunteer unhappy, he can inform both his Unit Commissioner, who will inform the District Commissioner, who will bring it to the Key3. Or it can go to the COR, who is invited to attend the District Committee. If the problem is a district problem it can be taken care of at that meeting. If it has to do with something the Council has: done, hasn't done or is not doing the right way. There are representatives on the District Committee that sit on all the Council Committees and the District Chair. sits on the Executive Board. The person with the problem does deserve a answer, and should be given one in a timely manner. Sad to say what often happens is that the person with the problem has already come up with what he wants to hear. Most unit volunteers have very little dealings with the Scout Executive. Most of the time a Scout Executive is carrying out what the board has directed him to do or he is following through what has come down from the Region or from the National Office. The Council Service Center,which in some Councils doubles up as the Scout Shop is staffed by people that are under his leadership. The Field Director reports to him. Most unit volunteers have little no dealings with the Field Director. He is the one that supervises the DE's. He is the one that trains and guides them. The Scout Executive, does prepare a budget for the Council, which is scrutinized and passed by the Executive Board. The Council Finance Committee, working with the Districts and the District Finance set about making goals and raising the money. Some of the larger Councils have a Finance Director. Someone saying "I don't like the Scout Executive" is not a problem - It is an opinion. Sometimes we as volunteers do not know the full story or have the full picture. A few years back we hired a person as a camp director, soon he was doing all sorts of things and even though he wasn't a Scout Professional, he became a full time employee taking care of program. I was at a meeting where we discussed a job description for this guy. As time went by I became very upset that this chap wasn't doing his job. When he was finally let go,I mentioned to another board member that he had never done his job. I was informed that his job description had been changed. Needless to say I felt bad for thinking the way that I had. There are of course Scout Executives that are really nice people that everyone wants to go out of their way to help and there are others that just don't have that skill. If you are lucky and get the warm and fuzzy one, don't let him fool you, the guy that you never see could be working his tail off trying to bring in grants, negotiating lower insurance premiums. How many of us really know what the Scout Executive really does? Does he make a difference in the life of a little Cub Scout? Or is that in the hands of the people in the unit? Eamonn

Fotoscout, With regard to some sort of cap, I don't see it happening. Each Council is a corporation /business. While our Council is not one of the big Councils, we do have a fair amount of out of Council troops come and camp with us. The money that they bring in is looked on as some sort of a bonus. It is strange that while we welcome out of Council campers, we frown upon units that want to camp out of Council. Here in Southwestern Pennsylvania, we still have a lot of small Councils and the programs offered are very similar. A friend of mine served on a Wood Badge Course this year hosted by one of these small Councils. He came back very excited saying that the camp has less then 750 campers a year. The pool is only open part time and he was really impressed that the Scout Exec. Was mowing the grass. When I said that with only 750 campers a summer, that they couldn't be making any money. He said that they have it worked out that they do. I know for a fact that the fee that they charge is the lowest in the area. I also know that when it comes to membership this Council is really hurting. I didn't say anything but I couldn't help thinking that if the Scout Exec. Spent more time working on membership and less on mowing the grass that membership would go up and along with that attendance at the camp would increase. When I look at these "Huge mega camps" I can't help thinking of how much it must cost to maintain these camps and how much it costs during the "Down Time." Sure the Metro Council next door has motor power boats and we have canoes and row boats, the cost of maintaining the canoes and row boats is far less then the power boats. The insurance issues with the canoes and row boats are less then the power boats. They have a super nice Cub World, with forts and pirate ships. That sit unused all winter. They even have a row of houses that Ryan Homes donated. I have used them while at Camp School. I don't know what they are used for the rest of the year - Summer camp staff accommodation's? They have two dinning halls. I bet that one of them sits idle for 40 weeks a year. They need the out of council campers to help offset the cost of all this. Scout camps do generate a lot of emotion. I have very deep feelings for our camp and the camp grounds. The camp was what brought me to the USA,in the first place. The camp was where I met Her Who Must Be Obeyed. The camp offers me a lot of really important and grand memories. Sure I love it and would hate to see it come to harm. In a different thread I asked how much should we pay camp staff? A lot of the replies pointed out that the money shouldn't be a consideration. Emotion, love, history are very important and are a reason why we still have as many small camps as we do have. I visited a camp that is owned and operated by a Council smaller then ours, which has a lot less summer campers then we have. They have over the past few years built a lot of really nice buildings. That are very user friendly and can be used year round. The plan is to move the Council Service Center on to the camp grounds.I was amazed when I seen all that they have done. It turns out that they have a very wealthy family that are also architects, who love Scouting and love that camp. Sad to say they also have a problem with membership which is declining. They are aware of this and are steps to change this around.It would be a shame if all that has been done would be lost. Much as some people don't want to hear it, money is a very strong driving force. Love and loyalty are fine qualities, but they don't attract the best staff, or buy a new camp truck. Long term planning, with realistic goals and careful use of resources will ensure that the local Scout camp will be around for a long time. While the grass always seems greener in the other Council's camp ground. How many Scouts we can get to attend our Summer camp is closely tied to everything that we do in the other eleven months of the year and how the Scouts that did attend camp last year feel they were treated. Eamonn

I did indeed read your posting. It just wasn't very clear who was posting what!! Still thanks for clearing things up for me. I fail to see how asking the COR's to attend a meeting that they are supposed to attend anyway is any sort of deliberate procedural obstacle. The COR's and the Council Members at Large are the voting members at this meeting. While they can accept or refuse to accept the slate of Council Officers that the Council Nominating Committee presents at the meeting.The Scout Executive can not be voted out at this meeting. I feel sure that both the Council President and the Council Nominating Chairman, will not allow this meeting to become one where dissatisfied people voice their opinions. This is not the time or the place. If there really is a grass roots movement to remove the Scout Executive, the voting members can refuse to elect the people put forward by the nominating committee and try to get the nominating committee to come up with a list of people who feel the way they do. I have to say that I find it strange that a Scout Executive could hand pick an entire Executive Board. We have had our Scout Exec. For a little over three years. Sure there are new faces on the board. People from different areas of the community, some are local business leaders, some are involved in education and some work in the community as church leaders or youth workers. We still have a lot of "Old timers". Among these there are four past presidents. One Council Vice-president is also the Area President, a few of the "Old timers" serve on different committees of the National Council. A couple more board members sit on the Area Committee. Please believe me these people do talk to each other as well as talking to Regional and National people. When a new Scout Executive is selected along with his references and reports of past performance there is a lot of people talking and finding out what the guys who are interviewing are really like. You failed to mention what you really want? Or if there is some sort of a compromise that could be reached. If you continue to pursue what might be looked upon as a vendetta against the Scout Executive and the Executive Board, you will damage and cause harm to the council. I am sure that is not something that you want to do. Of course if you were to harm the Council and damage the good name of the Council this might be grounds for the Scout Executive to revoke your membership. You will catch a lot more flies with honey then you will with vinegar. We are all in this for the good of the youth members. If you really are unable to work with the Scout Executive, stop being involved with Council and District activities and put all of your energy into a unit. Eamonn.

I couldn't have said it better. Well Done Bob. Eamonn.

You might want to check out the Scout Camps located in the Laurel Highlands. Greater Pittsburgh has Heritage Scout Reservation and Camp Twin Echos, I don't know if Twin Echos is open in the summer. There is also Camp Conestoga. Operated by Westmoreland Fayette Council.Both these camps offer a traditional scouting program. For the older Scouts, if you wanted to take them off site there is white water rafting, mountain biking. Not that far away is 7 Springs Ski Resort, which has an Alpine Slide. There is the Johnstown Flood museum, and Shanksville,where flight 93 crashed. Pittsburgh is about 90 Min's away. Where there is the Pittsburgh zoo, the National Avery and the Children's Museum. Eamonn.

I don't know how it works in other Councils. In our Council the fees for Summer Camp and the use of camp facilities is set by the Camping Committee and approved by the Board. All these guys are Volunteers. I do know that not charging reasonable and realistic fees is not generate any income which might help offset the cost of improvements. At this time we do allow troops to camp on camp grounds that we own at no cost. However if they require hot water in the shower block turned on there is a fee. If they wish to use the buildings there is a fee. One camp is very primitive. I have for years been pushing to have it upgraded. It has outhouses. All the water is from wells. The cost of bringing in city water is over $240,000. At present the camp is used mainly by Districts for Camporees. A few years back we did build a house on the camp grounds for the Camp-masters. We had used trailers but the local Vandals were forever getting in and doing damage, till one day they burned it down. A lot of my friends were involved in the construction. I went with them a lot of the time to hold the ladder and do other "important" tasks. My main role was cooking lunch and keeping them watered. I know that the building came in under budget but still the cost was almost $100,000. I do think that spending all that money to build a building that will house two Camp-masters, two nights a week is a lot. Some weeks there are no campers. In fact a lot of weeks there are no campers, during the summer it is hardly used. Over the holidays it isn't used. When there are campers it is normally just one or two troops. There is another building that I seem to use more then anyone else. I use it for Jamboree Troop meetings, Training's, Big District meetings and when I can I try and get the District Activities Committee to use it. My hope is that if we use it enough maybe we will one day get the water put in. I know that once that happens, I will want a shower house built. My long term goal is that we will move the resident Cub Scout Camp there. While I have not got hard numbers the cost of all this will be something like five or six million dollars. That doesn't include the pool. There is no way that we will ever be able to recover that amount of money.If we have a camping season of seven weeks with a hundred and fifty Cub Scouts and spread the cost over twenty-five years, we would have to charge each Cub Scout over $190.00 to recover the cost. This of course is never going to happen. Without doing some type of study it is impossible to know what the operating costs are for any camp or camp ground. We had another very primitive camp that no one used. Looking at the reports there had been one troop camp there in the last three years. It was a fair distance from the Council and I wonder how many of the new Scoutmasters even knew it existed. It could be argued that it wasn't costing us anything. Last year we sold it. Needless to say the hard-core moaners and complainers were up in arms. The money from the sale was split so that half of it went into the endowment fund and half went into another endowment fund that was started to pay for camp maintenance. But still some people were unhappy and the cry went out that the council was selling off the assets of the Council. While I am all for everyone doing everything that they can to support the Council. I can't fault the Scouts for opting to camp where they want to camp. To do so would go against the PLC. I would hope that starting at the District level, the District Camping Chair. Would ask why Troop 123 wasn't using the Council camp? He would then take this to the Council Camping Committee. Sad to say what often happens is that we cast aside what we don't want to hear. Very often the blame is put somewhere and no action is taken to fix what isn't working. Most Councils are very proud of their Summer Camp and the programs that are offered. Change can take a long time. I really do think that we do need to be far more business like at every level when it comes to Summer Camps. The goal has got to be that we will offer our customers the best summer camp experience. To do this we need to treat each and every Scout a quality product. The product needs to be looked at from every angle. Marketing, value for money,exceeding the expectations of the end user and future improvement. I do not believe that anyone or any group deserves any sort of a break. The cost is the cost. If what is offered is value for money and that doesn't mean cheap!! People will see that and ought to want to buy it. Preferential treatment that is not available to all Packs, Troops and Crews within the Council is unfair and wrong. Eamonn

Not sure why? But I ended up presenting the New Leader Essentials course. I haven't done this one in a very long time. In fact not since I was at Wood Badge. While preparing for Wood Badge,I spent a lot of time thinking about the dreaded Tickets. How could I ensure that the Troop Guides understood Vision,Mission, Values and Goals? They had to have a real grasp of this in order to help the participants with their Tickets. I really struggled with this and to make matters worse I wasn't really happy with the presentation in the syllabus. It is very entertaining, thought provoking,but covers too much at one time. Today, I was very surprised that the Vision Statement of the BSA is not mentioned? But thanks to Wood Badge I think that I really did an outstanding job of covering the Mission Statement. (I know what they say about self praise!) It would be wonderful if when the people who spent the morning with me today get to Wood Badge and remember at least some of what we covered today. They were a super group. They really got into the course and participated right from the get go. I had almost forgot how much I enjoy training. When I grow up I think I'll be a Trainer. The more I think about the "One Course and your out" rule for Course Directors of Wood Badge. The more I think it is wrong. While I agree that we never want to go back to the "Old Boy's" club that seemed to happen in some areas.I still think that I have a lot to offer and not allowing me to be invited again is not such a good thing. (End Of Vent!!) Eamonn.

OK,please help me out. You are having an ongoing disagreement with the SE who serves the Council in which you live. So you have posted old postings from other people who at some time have had disagreements with other SE's who are not the person that you have your disagreement with, and other people are from where? These postings that are seven years old prove what? Am I missing something? If so what? What is or was your position in the Council? Do you know what you want? How will you getting what you want improve Scouting and the Scouting programs in the area where you live / Scout? What do you think the chances are of you ever getting what you want? Is there a compromise that would suit you if you can't get what you want? Is there a question that I should have asked? Eamonn.

Unc. While I do agree with passing on or teaching the values that we as members of the BSA hold dear, is never a bad thing. I don't think that we are the only organization that has these values. What makes us a little different is the methods that we use. When I read the Vision and Mission Statements of the BSA I fail to see why anyone would want to use the programs of the BSA to work in this area. Sure this might come across as good ink. But,this is not where we should be doing what we do. We could go into the local Nursing Home, have the old folks make the Cub Scout sign, repeat the Cub Scout Promise, do a few crafts. Sing a couple of songs. Would this be Cub Scouting? Of course not. I like to think that we are good at what we do.We work with young people. We work with young people who may have gone astray. We teach the values of Scouting by allowing them to live the Scout Oath and Law. We put them is situations where they see what it means to live by these values. Using tools like reflection we allow them to discover what it all means. Eamonn.

I hate hats, caps and head gear. Back when the earth was a little younger, our school uniform had a cap, lined with some sort of shinny material and a badge with a yellow cross to remind us and warn everyone else that we went to Holy Cross. When I joined Wolf Cubs as they were then in the UK. The cap was green with yellow piping,like a string that went all around the cap and also divided it into segments. Someone did tell me why there was the number of segments. But I can't remember what they said. In the front of the cap was a badge with a red Wolf. As you advanced you got What I think were called second and first class? Any way they were stars that you wore either side of the badge. The wolf on the badge had his eyes closed and the stars were to represent one eye open then both eyes open. Just before leaving the pack you earned the Leaping Wolf, very much like the Arrow of light but it was a patch that you wore on the green pullover which was made of wool and itched like crazy. When I moved on to grammar school it was a black cap with a badge with an elephant on it. I entered the troop just as the UK uniform was changing. I got to wear a green beret, unlined with a leather band there was a metal scout badge that was the cause of a lot of pain when someone whacked you with it. When I moved over here I went without a hat, I was invited to serve on Wood Badge and bought a campaign hat. I looked like a real dork. I went as a participant on the old Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge, so I bought a Cub Scouter Blue and white ball cap? We never wore caps. The rule was if caps were to be worn everyone in the Den wore them. It so happened that each and every den had at least one cap missing. I served on a couple more Wood Badge course, the campaign hat still made me look like a dork. So I thought I would buy a bigger one. I looked at the cost in the catalog and I think it was about $75.00 Which was about what I paid for the "Dorky" one. I could have got it at cost which would have brought it down to under $55.00. Someone said that you could buy them on the net for $28.00 plus shipping. I send off for details and they send me a paper that was to measure my head. I send my head size along with $32.00. My hat came back it was smaller then the one I had, So I mailed it back and paid the shipping on a bigger one.$9.00. The other new hat arrived and it was way too big. Back it went along with more shipping. The next new hat arrived. It fit, but I still looked like a dork. I bought a new hat press and had to buy the hat band and chin strap (The one that I had just bought had a plastic chin strap) The band and strap was $14.00. My cheap hat cost me $64.00 and I still looked like a dork. Last year when I was course director for a Wood Badge course, I gave headgear a lot of thought. On one hand there was the idea of a Wood Badge staff that looked like a Norman Rockwell picture on the other was the fact that the Campaign Hat is not the official hat for Cub Scouters and who knows what the official head gear is for Venture leaders in the green shirt? So I decided that we would include in the cost of course a ball cap. It was to be a tan cap with the Gilwell logo (Ax in log) the words Wood Badge NE-IV-153. My dear friend Jack who at that time was Assistant Scout Exec. Was our course Advisor,Jack orders a lot of T-shirts and caps for different events that the Council has. So I left the ordering of the caps and T-shirts with Jack. The Staff arrived on Wednesday night, the course started on Saturday. Jack arrived, his car packed with stuff. We helped him unload. I looked at the caps and they have the wrong number on, so do the shirts. I am a little upset, people have ordered extra shirts and some ordered extra caps. I inform Jack telling him that who ever made them has made a mistake. Jack tells me that this has never happened before and how reliable the company is. I tell him that might be so, but they screwed up this time. He looks at the caps and swears!! Jack has been known to let the odd word slip out. He is standing there shaking his head. He looks at me and tells me that he knows that number. It is the number of the course that he took back in the 70's. We tell all the participants that they will receive the correct shirt and cap at the second weekend. We ask them if they want to buy what will soon be a prized collector shirt and hat. We sold all of them and even made a couple of dollars along the way. I don't know if wearing ball caps all the time is just a southwestern Pennsylvania thing? The guys around here seem to really love caps. People keep giving me them. I go visit a troop and they give me a troop cap, the council has caps that they give out for helping at different events. Her That Must Be Obeyed, tells me that they make my nose look bigger!! I have a large snout to start with. Pam our old DE said that she went to a PDL training and this tall good looking man who was a trainer got out of a small two seater convertible and put on his campaign hat. She said that there was something sexy about it - And I still look like a dork. I'm not sure If I'm a sexy dork or not? Eamonn

The summer that I worked at camp I didn't get paid. At that time International Camp Counselor didn't. Add to this the cost of the return flight to England. I was lucky, this was my graduation gift from my Dad. While all the fine and noble stuff is fine and noble. There are many fine Scouts who would dearly love to work at camp if they could afford too. Many families struggle to pay the tuition costs and expect their child to save money over the summer to help pay their living expenses. I fail to see why working at a Boy Scout camp isn't a normal job.The BSA has come a long way to ensure that the professional staff receive a fair and living wage. How or why is this different then working at camp? Eamonn

With petrol costing $199.9 a gallon, I am not driving the SUV as much it gets 15 miles to the gallon and the cars get over 26 miles to the gallon. With heating oil costing $1.67 a gallon we may cut the heat back a bit this year. I'm pleased to report that my BP stock is doing really well. I'm all for alternative fuels. When I can run the SUV on tap water I'll buy a bigger one and will hopefully have dumped the stock I own in BP. I really do like that oil and gas companies are doing what they can to avoid impacting the environment, but sad as it may be some damage will happen. I bet the deserts in the middle east would look a lot nicer without all them nasty looking oil rigs and pipelines.But it seems it's OK if they are over there. Eamonn

I'm sorry sst3rd, I have to disagree with you. The Council asked for a donation. You donated your time, your skill and your expertize. Other people lack the skills, the expertize and maybe just are not free to do construction work at the weekends or whenever the work was done. They donated what they could through FOS donations or a direct donation to the project.Does everybody who donated what they could deserve a break when it comes to renting the building? I think not. I don't know one end of a hammer from the other. I am in the fortunate position that I can donate to the council. So while you provided the hammering I paid for the nail. When I donate to a charity I do it for the good I think it will do. If the charity is the BSA I hope it will further the work that the BSA does for young people. If the new facilities are not being kept up, this is poor management and this needs to be corrected. While I do think that local units should have first "Dibs" on renting Council facilities, I would sooner see these facilities being used by any youth organization then sit idle. Most Councils do allow local units to pay at a preferred rate. I feel sure that the Order Of The Arrow members look at the work they have done for their Council as Cheerful Service, isn't that a vital part of the Order? Eamonn.

Hey Beav, Do you have a Game Boy that I can borrow? Eamonn.

I have to admit that I was hoping to see some numbers. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen. I didn't count exactly how many thoughts my dear friend Unc. Used in his "Couple" But here are a couple of mine. You are never going to please everybody. People will pay for quality. In our area troops fund raise the money needed for camp. I know that I rarely if ever pay for camp. Keeping costs low is fine,but if they should go up and don't, when all of a sudden they go up by a large amount, it seems to upset people even more. "Why didn't they raise it every year" was something I heard a lot when the registration went from $7.00 to $10.00. I think that Camp Staffers work more then forty hours a week. I know that I did!! I agree that being selected and serving on camp staff is still in our council viewed as a big deal and by becoming a camp staffer you join a very exclusive club, that doesn't really exist. You can forever boast "I staffed in such and such a year". This will lead to the telling of many war stories. I don't agree entirely with keeping the salaries secret. In fact this could be the cause of so many complaints about the camp staff. Could it be that if the complainers knew that the staff were over worked and under paid that they would complain less. Maybe if the rate of pay was advertised as "Wanted Handicraft Area Director" With a full and accurate job description and "Salary Range from $240.00" Scouts and their parents might be more willing to consider working at camp? By not employing older staffers we lose older campers. By losing older campers we don't attract older Staffers. If we really took a long hard look at what we offer at camp and made it a goal to make camp more adventurous we would attract older scouts and would need older staffers to run the more adventurous program. I wasn't very happy with the quality of the staff that I met when asked to do a pre-camp inspection. The staffers were real young. They didn't seem to be trained in what they were expected to do. They reported to the site a week before camp. The first few days was spent getting the camp ready, going over camp polices and youth protection type stuff. They didn't even get into their areas until late Wednesday. So they unpack what was packed last year, made lists of what they needed and then the pre-camp team arrived. We watched as these young guys tried to present the class that they would be teaching to to campers the next coming week. We reported back to the program director. By now it was lunch time. This left him with less then two days to get these guys up to par as well as sort out 1001 other things that needed to be done. We have in the council people who are well versed in the skills that these Staff members need to know in some cases we have experts. Sad to say most of these guys work full time for a living and much as they might like too or want too they can't take a summer off to work at camp. With some planning these experts could meet with the staff members long before summer camp and pass on their great knowledge. Staff members who took this training would be Trained Staff Members and would be eligable for a higher rate of pay. This would really give the Council Advancement Committee something to do. The goal is not to pay the camp staff more money the goal is to improve the quality of the camp for the customer - The Scout. Eamonn.

I disagree. I know many fine Scouts who would love to work at camp but can't afford too because of poor pay. Hopefully when you hire people for a position you hire the best person possible? You are not going to hire the first year staffer to be a Area Director, unless he has outstanding skills in that area? Anyway you still didn't answer the question how much would you pay? Why I want to know? Really is of no consequence. But being as you asked.The number one complaint that I hear about Scout Camp is that the staff are no good. I happen to believe that we don't pay these people enough. My thinking being if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. I have heard of Scout Camps that pay as little as $100.00 a week. People try to defend this by saying that the people who work at camp do it for the love of Scouting.I do what I do as a volunteer for the love of Scouting. If I was trying to save money to attend college next year the love would have to take a back seat. It would come down to "Show me the money." Eamonn.

If you were the person responsible for setting up the pay scale for Boy Scout Camp, how much would you pay : The Program Director? Area Directors (Handicraft, Nature)? Aquatics Director? First year staffer ? These staff members report for work on Sunday at 1:30 PM. Are expected to be at breakfast each day and Flag ceremonies work in their areas till 4:30 are expected to be at supper and Flag ceremonies. Get one night off per week and are allowed to leave the site after the campers leave on Saturday at 10:00 Eamonn. They get paid each week.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

There should be a copy of the Camp Budget in the Council Service Center. The District Camping Chair Should be able to ask for a copy. Most camp budgets will show that the camp has made a slight profit. This is due to not taking into account the things that you mention. While program supplies will be a budget item, new tents will not be. While Camp Staff salaries will be a budget item, the Program Director who is at camp all summer, will not be listed. I don't know how it works in other Councils.This is our first year with a full time Program Director, so I don't know if the camp budget will become his responsibility or not? What I think has happened in the past is that the Scout Exec. has to prepare a budget to present to the Board. Everyone thinks that whatever they are involved in deserves special attention or more money. When I was Training Chairman, Training was the most important thing in all of Scouting. Training Chairman was not a board member position, we came under program. I would send lists to the Vice-President of program, I would bend the ear of other board members. I never got anything. Writing the budget for a Scout Council can not be an easy task. Some costs are going to go up and they let you know how much. The Health insurance people do let you know in advance that that cost is going up and what the rate will be next year. Most utility companies only get to raise what they charge once a year.But a lot of the budget is at best an educated guesstimate. I wonder how often the guesstimate is just a percentage that is added without very much thought or investigation. This only comes to light when something goes very wrong or very right. I know that I am shocked at how little control there is in our Council when it comes to buying things. There is no system what so ever. A little while back the SE asked one of the volunteer workers to change a lock. The guy went and spent $1,200 on special locks that only some place 3 states away could make keys. The SE thought the guy would buy a $15.00 lock. There is no purchase orders or anything. Where did the $1,200 get posted too? The locks were at camp. Is this in the maintenance budget? The properties committee budget? Some time last year we ran out of money. Everyone was informed that they were not to buy anything. Some of the volunteers who do work up at camp just couldn't understand it. They had things that needed to be done. What the heck was "The Old Man" doing how could we run out of money. I didn't have the heart to tell them that we run out of money every year. We have a line of credit at the bank and there have been years when we have had to borrow money from the endowment fund. Once the popcorn money starts to come in things pick up. Eamonn.

Wow. Hold it !! Now Breathe !! Eamonn.

No it is not permissible. I don't have to think. All I have to do is read. If the Scoutmaster and the Committee want to start their own youth organization, they can of course do so. But if they want to belong to the BSA, life isn't that hard just read the requirements and support the youth members as they reach for their goal. Eamonn.

While I am not for banning things and think that a Scout can be trusted to use these devices at the right times, without having to have a 32 page document. Cells Phones are handy but I hope that we still teach first aid and emergency preparedness as well as "Cell Phone 101" Eamonn.

Have to admit to feeling hurt by TwocubDad's comment. The District and the Commissioners do not have magic wands. Nor do we have a team of adult leaders that will rush in and make things right. Some times all we have to offer is words of advise. Before a new pack can be started or a dying pack saved there has to be people who want to start it or want to save it. These people must make starting or saving this pack a goal which they are going to stick with. If this person or these people are not willing to do this. There is no point what so ever of even trying. The District does have people who will advise and support the efforts of these people. They will not take over and start or run the unit. Step by step here is what I would do.(After finding out how the unit was allowed to be in this state in the first place.) 1/ Send the DE in to meet with the Chartering Organization. The DE needs to know that this organization still wants to have a Cub Scout pack.At this meeting the DE could mention that the COR is not living up to expectations. If the CO still wants to have a pack. 2/ Send the District Commissioner or Assistant District Commissioner Cub Scouts to meet with the CC, COR, and Cubmaster. See who turns up. At this meeting outline how the selection of Adult Leaders works. Work with the people who did attend at coming up with a list of people that could form a Nominating Committee. Need about six people who will attend the meeting. Would include someone from the troop. 3/ Offer to send someone from the District to attend the first meeting of the Nominating committee. This District person could help with writing job descriptions and characteristics for the people that are needed. Allow the people on the committee to brain storm and come up with a list of people who they think could do the job. Put these people in order -First choice, second choice.. 4/ Have the DE pick up completed Adult apps. and take them to the Executive Officer for approval. Maybe the DE could ask if anything had been done about replacing the COR? 5/ Send the District Training Chairman to meet with the new leaders and committee members. Set up a date for training's 6/ Send in EMS Commissioner and new unit commissioner (The last one didn't do any good.) Arrange for some sort of recruiting drive and date of first meeting. 7/ Allow new leaders to run meeting under watchful eye of EMS Commissioner. 8/ Make sure everyone knows how to contact the Unit Commissioner and let the new people run with the program. Eamonn.

Much as we may not like or want to hear it Councils are businesses.A business is a living thing, like most things that live it is either growing or it is dying. The Council that puts up with me is not a large Council. But of the six Councils in our Wood Badge cluster we are the largest. At this time I know that one of these Councils is carrying a humongous amount of debt. One is looking at merging with another Council. It might just be a coincidence that 3 of these Councils have hired new Scout Executives over the past two years? Scout Camps do require a lot of money. Sad to say it seems to me that the cost of Scout Camp does not include the cost of deprecation of equipment or buildings. If a camp does make a few bucks this ends up back in the general account and the money is spent on salaries, and everyday expenses. Then it seems to come as a big surprise when the camp needs money. The last few years money has been really tight. Councils have had a hard enough time getting enough money in to meet budget. Most Scout Executives have not wanted to become involved in a capital campaign for fear it will take money from FOS and the money needed to operate the Council. I have argued with some of our guys who either say that Camp is too expensive or sit on the Camping Committee and think that they are doing such a great job, by keeping the cost low. This year a week at camp cost $160.00 I don't as yet have a break down of where the income from the camp was spent. A big chunk went to paying the staff. The biggest complaint I hear about camp is that the staff is too young. Sure when I look back over the years the staff was a lot older. We had more Lads who were at college and more adults who at that time were laid off from the steel mills!! We just do not pay enough for a college kid to save for the next year. A big chunk goes for food. Food costs have gone up a lot over the years. Everyone is on about the cost of a gal of gas. Look at the price of a gallon of milk!! I know that I am in the minority in our Council, but we are doing things at camp that to my way of thinking take away from it being a camp. We are building a Nature Building.I don't know about anyone else but isn't that stuff outside any way? We are building an OA Museum!! I know that I can make it through a year without looking at old Lodge Flaps. We now have brick walk ways from building to building. Each and everyone of these will in time need repairs and maintained.So maybe the money is there to build them. But where does the money to maintain them come from? When a Council can no longer afford to pay its way. When the money going our is more then the money coming in isn't enough. The Councils will either have to merge, in which case will they need two Scout Camps? Or they will have to sell some of their assets. Most Councils don't have too many and that camp site - Does it really need to be that big? Starting endowment funds for camp and camp maintenance might be a way to protect and preserve the local Scout camp. But where will the money come from? Eamonn.

Thanks for the info. And the tip. I didn't know how long it took to X-ray a truck!! Eamonn.