Eamonn

Like a great number of other forum members I was and am sad to see Kahuna leave. I did send a PM with my feelings. I belong to another forum, but don't post there very often. A very good friend of mine is a moderator in that forum. I do respect him and the other forum, but it seems they are very quick to close threads and tell people off. Terry,(Our host and site owner) does keep an eye on what is going on. When he asked a few people to give Hops-Scout and OGE a hand with being moderators he in a very nice way set out some general guidelines. I'm sure he isn't going to get to upset if I quote part of what he said: "Tread softly... I allow many discussions to continue not because I'm not paying attention, but because most don't really reach a level where I feel they need to be censored. In the Issues and Politics forum particularly, there should be a pretty loose control. I am more concerned about "stupid noise" and "intentional personal attacks" there than I am controversial positions on issues. I don't follow all the threads. I was following the "Rulesmongering" Thread. To be very honest when I read the postings I really didn't see an intentional personal attack. However looking back I see that maybe I was wrong. Maybe I ought to have deleted it and sent the forum member a pm explaining what I'd done and why I'd done it. The fact is that I didn't. Maybe my reasoning was that a little time before someone had been unhappy with something I'd posted and had let me know about it? I like to think that for the most part the moderators do a fairly good job and try not to "Get in the way". Sure we like everyone else have good days and bad days and at times I know I let people get to me. Sure I know at times I have some ideas and postings that are plain outright daffy. When I think I have it all mastered I'll change my Username to RightAtAllTimes, but somehow I don't see that happening. While maybe it's just an excuse and not a reason, I think the forum is a much safer, kinder place than it has been at times. I do want to apologize to Kahuna as I now see that I didn't do what I'm supposed to do. We do really have a great group of people who post in this forum. Every now and then we all need to remember where the Backspace tab is or just hit the Reset. I don't agree with the idea scouting used to be much nicer than it is now. We all may slip up from time to time, but we are all trying to do our best to live up to the Oath and Law. Eamonn.

Just to make sure that everyone understands. There really is no such thing as the Uniform Police. As I have admitted before in this forum. I'm very sewing impaired. I have somehow over the years managed to amass a rather large collection of the tan shirts. Some were from Staffing Wood Badge courses, some from Jamborees, some have District Patches on a couple have Regional Patches on. Some have no knots on, some have a few and a couple have a lot of knots on. One shirt does have a knot on upside down. I know that it's upside down, but to change it would entail removing two other knots. A few friends know that this knot is not right and do on occasion tease me about it. (We live in the sticks and need to find something to pass the time!!) I don't get upset and as a rule just take it. I think I'd be OK with anyone asking "Hey isn't that knot on upside down?" in a nice and friendly way. Where as is they weren't so nice about it and made a big deal of it, I think I'd tell them to go and pound salt. Many years back a Scout from the good old 17th Fulham (Pioneers). The Troop I was in as a Scout, where I earned my Queens Scout Award and later served as SM (Scout Leader in the UK) had his picture on the front page of the English Scouting magazine, with Queen Elizabeth II (Elizabeth I couldn't make it!) Young Colin was a super Scout. He lived just across the road from the Scout HQ. I swear he could hear me turn the key in the lock. He seemed to always be there. Small C, was the name I gave him. His Dad was from India and an alcoholic, who when he'd had a few too many would beat his wife and Colin. I think this was the reason why C submersed himself in Scouting and the Troop. When we found out C was meeting with the Queen as part of the 1977 Jubilee, we bought him a new shirt. We all wanted him to look his best. Sadly the World Friendship Badge was sewn on the wrong pocket. The following month Scouting Magazine was full of letters to the Editor about C's patch. As a rule we had one of the mothers sew C's patches on, but because I didn't get him the shirt in time he said that he'd do it, in fact his Mum did it and she is totally blind. When I read the letters to the editor, I think I called each and every letter writer every cuss word I could think of. This coming weekend we have a regatta coming up. The goal was to have all of the Ship in full dress whites, some of the uniform parts are still somewhere between California and Pennsylvania. If they make it, there isn't going to be time to get all the patches and stuff on them. Knowing my luck some of the parts are not going to fit. As of now no one has a complete set (We are missing the tie) but I'm happy to allow the Scouts to wear what they have or wear the working uniform. We know that we are not going to get very high marks, but we have given it our best shot. I did order the uniforms five weeks ago -Next time I'll know better. I feel bad for the Scouts. They know I'm not happy, but they are kind enough to tell me that they think I've done my best. I'm 100% for correct and proper uniforming. I get a little upset with the SM of OJ's Troop (old Troop) he tells the parents that all the Scouts need is a shirt. I know that he knows better, he was the SM of the Jamboree Troop twice, has a Wood Badge. He is a real nice fellow. However he is a little upset with me for never asking him to get involved with training. I don't think I could knowing how he runs (Yes he runs) the Troop. Maybe I'm being vindictive, maybe I'm not being kind? But when I was looking for people to participate in presenting Training's and staff Wood Badge Courses, I looked at how people performed. This included uniforming. Eamonn.

A lot of the Sea Scout events we attend have a youth dance. Tom, one of the Sea Scouts went to a Good Will Store and returned with the ugliest pair of white shoes I've ever seen in my life. Tom is about five foot three, the shoes were nearly as big as him. They must have been something like a size 15. Tom thought these shoes were really something. He called them his "Disco Shoes." When the next Sea Scout dance came along Tom and his shoes were ready. Then the word got out that the dance would be in the gym!! Tom wasn't happy he didn't want a sock hop. As luck would have it they moved the dance to the cafeteria. So Tom got to give the Disco Shoes an outing. Eamonn.

SR540Beaver "It is usually driven out of selfishness, immaturity and arrogance." I think you've been talking to Her Who Must Be Obeyed!! Eamonn

Back when I was a little fellow. Them cold dark days before I ever heard about LNT. We would carefully remove the turf if poss in one piece, roll it carefully, water it daily. Not stand on it!! Then when we were done we would replace it and re-water it. Of course this was when we used the 3 X B's to get rid of cans. Burn'em Bash'em Bury'em All over England there is a trail of burnt and bashed Baked Bean cans, that I emptied for my breakfast!! Who knows? Just as the signs read "George Washington slept here." There might some day be signs about me and my Baked Beans!! Eamonn (I haven't had beans for breakfast since I was at BP House)

OGE, Maybe it's a code name? Like the cops on TV. "I'm booking you on a section 706B" Eamonn. (I'm still working on the Venturing Crew and Crews thing??)

We kinda had the same problem. We had Patrols that were mixed age groups. Very often the needs of the younger Lads seemed to get a little lost. As luck would have it our District held an annual Camp Craft Competition. The competition covered all the skills needed to complete First Class. Over the years the rules became a little complicated. But basically the Scouts were inspected when they arrived -How they packed their gear. All food was fresh and cooked over open fires. Their site was inspected -How it was set up, how the tents were erected and placed. How they worked as a team. The judges could pick a scout any Scout to cover one of six skills. There was also a surprise event. The winning patrol received the Camp Craft Trophy , which they kept for a year. It was a Felling Axe with a chromed head and their patrol emblem was carved into the shaft. This was the Trophy everyone wanted to win. As a Troop we held practice competitions, with the winning Patrol earning the right to wear a special neckerchief. This really seemed to give the Patrol Leaders and older Scouts the incentive to work with the younger Lads. Eamonn.

Thanks for the kind words and well wishes. I have just read the Thread where Kahuna has posted that she is leaving. Needless to say I'm saddened by it. Your kind words and wishes have helped soften the blow. Kahuna If you are still out there. Please know that we do have some of the cream of the crop posting in this forum. In my book you were part of the cream. I for one benefited from your wise words and your wisdom. Thank You. Eamonn.

I think maybe I have a problem with people who forget that this is the Boy Scouts. I'm fairly confident in my ability. I like to think that when it comes to the skills needed to be a Scout, I'm maybe a little above average. I was never in the military. I don't have any special forces training. I really do like kids and would never do anything that would hurt or harm them. While I don't go in for specialized equipment. I do have some of the better equipment that is out there.I think maybe I'm better equipped than most of the Scouts and I try to remember this. Also they are at the mercy of their parents when it comes to buying stuff. When I take Scouts away one of the main things I focus on is having fun. Sure I want our activities to challenge and provide adventure. I really want everyone to be safe, after all being hurt isn't any fun. I don't think I'm really good at anything. After all I'm just a Scouter. But I take it to heart. Over the years I have met all sorts of Scouter's. Some like me who just seem to know enough to provide a decent scouting program. Some who are just starting out, having never been a Scout, but are willing and ready to learn. But the Scouter's who worry me the most are the guys who seem to think we are all specialists. The First Aid guys who have equipment than the Emergency Room in their First Aid kits. The Backpacker who has the latest and greatest equipment and thinks that everyone can do 25 miles before breakfast. Then there is the "Director". We used to have a person who was our Cub Scout Resident Camp Director. Before the Camp, sometime in January or February she had a meeting of all the leaders, where she read the 30 page book of rules. She got mad at me one year as I started circulating a sign up sheet during her meeting for people to join the Escape Committee. Of hand I can't think of any BSA rules that I really have an issue with (I'm not very happy with all the table-top displays needed for Venturing Advancement. I think Scout uniforms are getting way over priced.)But I've met some people who just go over the top. I'm OK with the age appropriate activities. Even if they only serve to ensure that kids have something to look forward to. I think that the Scout Handbook does a good job. I know that I can do very well thank you very much without very much input or interference from the District or Council. Still I do follow the rules and file all the paperwork that is needed. When it comes to "Rulesmongering" it seems that this upsets the adults more than the Scouts? This might mean that the Scouts just vote with their feet? Maybe we need to remember that A Scout is Cheerful? Eamonn.

Our Council found a way to stop any such silliness. They raised the rental rate so that no one can afford them. This was in order to bring in extra cash. Now the cabins sit empty most weekends. If Her That Must Be Obeyed found out I was camped out at the Council Service Center for a weekend to book a camp site, I think I'd spend the rest of the summer camped out in the dog house. Eamonn.

I like to think more along the lines of a fine wine. Eamonn.

While a lot of what is on the outside may seem the same: Uniforms, Boats, Seamanship. I think the big difference is what their mission is and what ours is. Our guys ran into some Sea Cadets at a Safety at Sea weekend at Curtis Yard Maryland. As Kahuna posts they looked good, their drill was first rate. On the way home our Scouts said that they didn't want a Ship like that. I think you need to talk to the Scouts that you have and see what they want. Sea Cadets seem to do a lot of homework preparing for exams, the outcome of these exams determine if they can attend the summer activities that they offer. I really don't think that both programs can work in unison. One will overshadow the other. I think with all the drills and things need to be real Sea Cadets, the Scouting program will get lost. Sea Cadets is not a youth ran program like Sea Scouting. I really like that Sea Scouting is. Eamonn.

The HS which is trying to educate my son held the prom yesterday. I missed the Grand March last year as I was in the hospital. When I was in England we never had such an event. As per my instructions I arrived 45 minutes early. Sadly this year Her Who Must Be Obeyed was in the hospital. OJ had borrowed my super duper camera to take pictures of his Eagle project and hadn't recharged them. So it wasn't going to work. I know I should have checked. I sat waiting for things to start. Being a small town I like to think that I know everyone. But there were people I hadn't seen in a long time. Parents of kids who at some time I'd been involved with either through Scouting, soccer, or different committees. They looked old. Some had lost a lot of hair, some were showing a lot of grey. I'm glad that I went grey really early and have looked old for ever! A couple of girls from the Ship were there. They looked great. So different than they did on Monday when they were hanging from ropes. The boys looked good, some seemed more uncomfortable than others in their tuxes. But were these really the little fellows who were just starting Tigers when I was leaving the pack? The little fellows who would stop playing soccer to stand and watch passing planes? Some looked like they could be hit-men for the Mafia. Others looked like head waiters. I have to own up to feeling a little bit smug!! I knew most of the boys and feel that at some time I have played a part, be it a very small part in helping them become the people that they are. I've sat on the Eagle Scout BOR's, arranged scholarships for a few.Helped with different things over the years. OJ should graduate this year, but I held him back in second grade, because I wasn't happy with his reading. He had taken one of the cars and made arrangements to go out for breakfast with some of the other kids. I had the house to myself last night, just the dogs and me. I'm not used to being alone. This time next year, the prom will be overshadowed by graduation. OJ knows which college he wants to attend, I'm hoping that Her Who Must Be Obeyed is better. I just wish I felt old. I know I'm getting there, but deep down I don't feel any older than I did when I was in my twenties. Eamonn.

I like people who challenge or question rules. One real nice thing about working with older youth is that they do it all the time. For my part I see it as an opportunity for open debate and a chance to work on ethical thinking. We all seem to have our own pet peeves when it comes to rules. I spent most of my school years being yelled at by masters for not wearing my school uniform hat or having my hands in my pockets. A lot of rules are made because we don't feel that people will do the right thing. Speed limits are posted because the feeling is that drivers will not drive at a safe speed for the conditions. There are rules against taking other peoples stuff and hurting or killing people. As adults we have the right to elect the people who make our laws. We trust them to make and pass laws that will keep us safe. Different organizations have different rules or standards. Our local Elks club doesn't allow the wearing of hats or caps at the bar. This doesn't worry me as I hate hats. My local club doesn't allow jeans to be worn on the course, in the bar or in any of the restaurants. I like jeans and think I look better in them than some of the old guys with shorts on! I admit I have never challenged the rules, they were there before I joined and I think they will be there long after I'm gone. I'm not always sure how some rules come into being. I know some BSA rules don't seem to make sense. The number of Lifeguards needed to take Cub Scouts swimming seems a little over the top.If this came from the insurance companies, I think I might feel a little better than if it came from someone who had never taken a bunch of Cub Scouts swimming. For the most part I feel that when we choose to join an organization, we accept the stuff that comes along with the organization. At the risk of coming off like a Rulemongerer? I don't see how an adult leader can not wear the full uniform? Surely they knew before they joined that this is a uniformed organization. We had a case where a ASM took a group of Boy Scouts camping for a weekend by himself. He knew what he was doing was wrong. When a youth comes to me with something about a rule that he or she feels is unfair or wrong. We try and look at the rule and why it is in place. I really do try not to say "Because it's the rule!" I think I would have to struggle for a very long time with : "Rules must be looked at on their merits before they are followed, and on whether they really fit da circumstance." I don't know if I'm qualified to know all the merits? I'm not even sure if all rules have to have merits? Last week I was thinking about consequences.Mainly from the "What happens if?" point of view. In most cases the penalty for not following the guidelines of the BSA is that others will raise a few eyebrows and shake their head. I would hope we as a group are a very understanding and forgiving group. I may not understand how an adult can not wear full uniform, but a Lady arrived to participate in a Wood Badge course, in blue jeans. She is a an African American, who is the Cub Scout Leader of what I think is the only African American pack in our Council. I have no idea what sort of pack she runs, but I've seen her and the pack at Parent Son Weekends, the kids seem to be having a great time and having fun. Sure I'd sent out lots of information that asked people to wear full and correct uniform. But when she didn't? We just took no notice. A little Lad arrived to travel to the Jamboree wearing his brand new Jambo T-shirt. His uniform was packed in his foot locker. We had stressed that travel to and from the Jambo would be in full uniform. I could only smile and make sure he didn't miss the bus. Sure the other Scouts asked him time and time again where his uniform was? I think he got the message. I know that if I ever I have to do the Jambo thing again I need to do a better job of telling Scouts not to pack their uniforms in their footlocker. One really great thing about the Scout Law is that it stresses what as Scout is. The bad thing about the Scout Oath and Law is that every-time you think you have it, the bar gets raised a little higher. I got myself into hot water one time when in our Council newspaper I wrote an article about commissioners. In it I said I wanted (I was District Commissioner at the time) Warm and Cuddly Commissioners. Our Council Commissioner didn't like the word cuddly. My point was that I wanted people who really would be a friend to the unit. Sometimes it's not the rules that are at fault it's in the sale. Eamonn.

scoutldr Your lucky, when Uncle Paddy had it we we had to travel all over Ireland, looking in a lot of very welcoming places before we could help him remove it from his sporran. Even then he didn't give it up without a fight. Eamonn.

Winter Camping is what ever your Council Camping Committee decides it is. If you are in Florida, the standard is going to be different than if you are in Montana. All Cub Scout camp grounds have to be approved by the Camping Committee. If they say the site with the cabin and the cabin is OK. It's OK -if they don't you need to bring it up at the next District Committee meeting. Eamonn

I was busy sending E-mails. As ever the BSA hasn't done a very good job of providing clear information. If you go to: http://www.seascout.org/about/getting_started/how_to_organize_a_ship.html and read:What Does a Sea Scout Ship Do? It states:Some Sea Scout Ships prefer to plan their program around some specialty such as sailing, careers, scuba diving, or an aquatic sport. They may not utilize Sea Scout uniforms and advancement but offer a flexible program to those young adults having a specific career or hobby interest Which would seem to me to say that Ships can elect to wear what ever. But.. If you read page 107 of the Sea Scout Manual it reads : The National Sea Scout Committee adopted the uniforms in this manual as the only official Sea Scout uniform. For what it's worth my interpretation of all this is. There is an official Venturing Uniform; the green shirt and charcoal pants. But Crews can design their own uniform. There is the official Sea Scout Uniform, but just as in Crews, Ships can design their own uniform. My feeling is that if a Sea Scout Ship is going to follow the Sea Scout advancement plan they more than lightly would go for the official Sea Scout uniforms. The working uniform is easy and not very expensive. You can use Dickie's shirts and pants. I'm buying seconds from the company that supplies the U.S. Navy and the Shirt and pants are costing $14.50, the belt is under $4.00. We have the Sea Scouts B.S.A. Embroidered on for $4.00 add a flag and a CSP. The total cost is just over $30.00 Whites cost about $25.00 for the Jumper and pants, the necker costs about $6.00 the hat about $5.00. Then there is the cost of patches and embroidery it's still less than $45.00. Blues are a little more. I think they are unnecessary, but our Scouts like them they think they look cool. But with 13 buttons on the fly I hope they never get caught short!! I have to admit they do look really great in them and they cause a stir in our small town. We are by far the best looking Scouting unit in the Council. Everyone wants us to do flag ceremonies for them!! Not bad for a unit with a English Skipper!! Eamonn.

MaScout Far from hammering anyone, my point was/is: You can do whatever you like outside of Scouting. But BelieveinScouts didn't ask how we spent our free time outside of Scouting. As to: " Remember, there are always AT LEAST two ways to say something, and one of them is nice! When forum members have a gut reaction to something, we need to THINK before we fire back a response... I'm sorry but I keep thinking about people in glass houses. There is a very good 8 page Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines (13-631c) available from the National Office or I'm sure your local service center would be able to order it for you. But these Guidelines would only apply if you are taking Cub Scouts away. If I were to plan the Eamonn Family Reunion Camp not a BSA facility and we all were to wear the traditional Irish kilts with the county Meath and County Louth tartans. I feel almost sure that my uncle Paddy would have a drop of potcheen ((AKA poteen or poitin) in his sporran. Which as this wasn't a Scouting activity would be much appreciated. If it was a Scouting activity we might have to deport him (I would of course have to confiscate the offending liquid!!) Eamonn.

Newbie Den Leader While you are at it why not throw in Paint-balling, Sod surfing & hang gliding? But I think we are talking about Scouting activities. I do a lot of things with my son that I would never do with Scouts around!! Eamonn.

We are in the process of having Class 3 Med forms on all Ship Members. We had a problem with deadlines. We talked about it at a Quarterdeck meeting. Either the Yeoman or the Purser sends out an E-mail with the form on Troopmaster. Two dates are given, they decided to charge a late fee if the form and the money isn't in by the first date and will not accept any applications after the deadline. So far it seems to be working. I take care of the Tour Permits. The Lady in the Service Center has all the details, so filling them out isn't a big deal. I try and get them in about 3 months ahead and send in a batch at a time. Eamonn.

Beavah While I'm not a great lover of one size fits all rulings. I do believe that if you don't agree with a rule you need to go through the correct channels to have it changed. Each District has representatives on the Council Camping Committee. Of course you may not get what you think is right, but that's life. These Committees are made up of volunteers who really do have the good of the Scouts at heart.As a Scouter I think I'd feel better following a rule I may not agree with, than setting a bad example to the Scouts. Eamonn.

Of course as Sea Scouts is part of Venturing, this would mean that Venturing has two Highest Awards. Then we could look at the adult awards which could be viewed as the highest awards from the Boy Scouts. Eamonn.

"-Ten Young Women Earn Highest Awards from Boy and Girl Scouts of America" ? Highest Awards ? I kinda think Quartermaster is up there! But I'm biased !! Still a great accomplishment.

I was on the Cub Camping committee when we came up with the rules for Cub Camping in our Council. That was some years back. Since then I have heard of units that either knowingly or unknowingly have gone ahead and not followed the rules. At the end of the day like a lot of things in Scouting it boils down to a matter of honor. If we as a Council have not done and are not doing a good job of informing people what the rule is? Shame on us. If they know and choose to ignore the rule? Shame on them. Eamonn.

My thoughts: One bad thing about having the SSN on the Adult Application, is that we really don't want to be passing it around. We have a system, let the system work. Section Six of the Adult Application does ask a lot of questions. 6. a Asks if you use illegal drugs -Maybe it needs to be rephrased? I think I would have to follow my gut feelings! If I really deep down was unsure about this fellow, I'd very discreetly give the COR a call. After that I'd be happy to leave it with him. If on the other hand I felt that this was a fellow who had made a mistake and was past it, I'd move on. The fact that the other leaders don't feel he is able to drive is a red flag. Just my 2 cents. Eamonn.