Eagledad

Hi all We saw this coming several years ago and made two changes. First we got rid of patrol boxes and now all patrol equipment fits into a small milk crate. Then we bought a smaller lighter trailer that mini-vans can pull. I admit as the SM at the time, I wanted to be a backpacking troop anyways, so getting away from the patrol boxes fit right into my cleaver scheme. The second largest troop in our District (120 scouts) has a fleet of five small minivan size trailers. They just take as many as they need. My goal, which we never achieved, was for the patrols to pack everything in their backpacks and not use the trailer at all. I wanted each patrol leader to arrange transportation with patrol parents and meet the troop at the camp. Not very many adults felt the leadership skills gained from that experience out-weighed the advantage of the whole troop driving to camp together. My dad told me everyone in his troop just met at the church and hiked out of town. Have a great week. Barry

Another Beautiful Oklahoma Day all >>If he had seen that the food wasn't there he should have said something. Sure I learned a good lesson, but I think that the price was too high.

Hi All Wow, a lot of good responses. Some of us have been there and have a ragged old T-shirt to show for it. Several good replies but I feel Mike F said it best. You have reason to be concerned because in general, when a troop grows more than 40 percent, the program has to change to keep up. That is the scary part, now for the glass half full part. The sooner your adults get together on a game plan, the better off you will be at maintaining a quality boy run program. Dont get in the habit of talking about the worst; instead get it in your minds that as problems crop up, attack them. Come up with a game plan Now! Make sure everyone knows the goals of your program so that your solutions stay on track with those goals. Example is if you task more adults to help work with the new scouts, do it with the PLC and have SPL ask for their help with the idea that they will report to the SPL and the SM. That way the boy run part of the program doesnt get buried under the rush to fix program problems. Also understand that the PLC will in general try to run the same program as before. That is OK, but the little known secret of scout troops is they are generally a shadow of the adults goals and attitudes for the program. If the adults get lost, the PLC will follow. Get everyone thinking the same goals, even your PLC. It is rare for a Troop of more than 50 scouts to be as boy run as yours is now. Its simply a matter of how much can one scout (SPL) manage. But it can be done, I have that t-shirt also. Your leaders (both boy and adults) have to learn how to react to growing pains so that small problems dont grow into big ones. Get creative and try new ideas and attack the problems that are caused by the large influx. Be up front with the parents. You are in new territory and some patience is required. I like the suggestion to continue as you are. While you can't really do that, It's important that you don't react with big program changes. Plan several small changes and monitor how they work. Be careful that your changes don't start something that divides you troop more than it units it. 80% of what a scout learns comes from what he watches from the other scouts. If you take the new guys away from the more seasoned scouts, you retard their growth. There is an article posted on a web site that was written a few years ago. There might be something else in there that can help. Look for "Troop Size, Fact & Myths". http://www.daltonlp.com/scouts/ Finally, what I know that you probably havent figured out yet is this is a great character building experience for each person in your troop and for your program as a whole. I expect two years from now you will look back and realize how much your troop grew. Your older scouts will perform equal to adults and the younger guys will grow quickly. Your out door program will only get a lot better and your troop will be an example for others in your area. And, I think you will look back as I do and realize how much you love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I will go directly to the parents before taking it to the troop committee. I believe most parents would like to have a shot of handling the situation from home before it becomes a topic of discussion at next month's committee meeting.

Hi All Last night the topic of how the high gas prices are really biting into personal budges for troop travel. This will be a topic at the next committee meeting. Have your units felt the pressure as well? Are you doing anything to relieve the pain from gas, so to speak? Barry

Wow, that was really good. I think it's time to change your name from Twocubdad to boyrundad. Barry

Hi All >> it puts the SPL in an incredibly awkward situation. Now we have a young man placed before a committee of his elders, trying to defend his prerogative to run the troop his way, without being disrespectful (Now the parents whose children lost the SPL elections are beginning to question him more...)

Happy Friday All >>The SPL should NOT be asked to sit in the Committee meetings. This can quickly turn into an interrogation about "whose ideas these were." He is suddenly pressured by parents' ideas about things from all sides, too.

>>He was telling me that he has been explaining to the adults in his new troop that he gained his knowledge of how to do it right by watching it done so many times in my troop.

Hi All EagleKY. This is not really a PLC problem, it's a SM problem. I'm assuming you are the SM. The SM by design is the philosophical head of the program. While the committee supports the program, the program is basically the SM because the SM is the one adult in direct contact with the boys both physically and philosophically It's not that the committee or even the parents are wrong; they just havent been completely educated yet to the benefits of letting the boys run the program. Use these situations (struggles) to strengthen your understanding of the power of boy run. How you get through this situation will make you stronger as a boy run Scoutmaster. How you deal with it will also determine how the scouts and parents learn your role as the philosophical head of the program. Bob is right that you should listen to both sides. But I believe the compromise is teaching the adults how to give the scouts the fears and concerns of the committee and asking them to deal with them. Let the scouts find the solutions. With your guidance, the scouts will find the compromises if they are required. For the families who can't go, there will always be families who can't go on every activity for all sorts of reasons. Your program will grow to a time when nobody could possibly go on every activity. But at the same time, listen to the folks. If money is an issue, provide enough fundraisers so everyone has a chance. Start learning how to paint a vision of the future when you talk about your troop. Every time something like this comes up, you have an opportunity to explain that the more the scoutsget to work with, the more they will learn their limitations. Explain that its better to let the scouts figure out what they can and cant do because they learn that for life. IF the adults limit the scouts, then nobody knows just how much the scouts could have done. They are very creative, so them create. If an activity has to be changed, let them figure that out and how to do it. Just give them the facts and concerns of the adults then let them run that through their PLC machine and see what comes out at the other end. As for you, you will build strength and confidence as you learn to guide both the scouts and the adults. I learned that Scoutmastering is 50% scouts and 50% adults. This will not be your first challenge. If you are truly going boy run, you are going to run into those parents that want less boy run and more Eagle mill. Get ready, what are you going to say? Good luck with this. But remember it is just a natural growing pain of a boy run program. Sounds like youre a pretty good SM. Your scouts may not realize it yet, but they should be thankful for someone like you. They have a lot to look forward to in their future scouting. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Beautiful Oklahoma Day All From Eamonn >>Scouting is for Boy's. Our job as Scout Leaders is to provide a Scouting Program for the youth in the program. We are not out to save the world or the families of the Scouts>My perspective on the difference between a scout leader and a quality scout leader is the difference between a horse, and somebody who is dressed up like a horse. A quality leader takes time to learn the program, time to understand it's methods, aims, and mission.

Wonderful Friday All >>I am thinking that trying to put one method above the others is like asking a Scout which Scout Law is the most important. Still I can' help thinking that the ideals has to be top of the list.

Hi All Like Beav (SR540Beaver), this tradady has weighed heavily on my mind. I can't know the horror everyone involved is going through and I pray a lot for them. But, we were discussing this at the meeting the other day, and we can't see how it happens. Please understand that we are flatlanders in Oklahoma, so we don't understand how with todays technology and manpower that this boy couldn't be found. It's not that we don't have any experience in this kind of territory, our troop averages at least two trips in the deep Wilderness areas of Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Canada. So we have experience in these kinds of terrains and foliages. I'm not surprised that anyone could get lost; we are just trying to understand what happens after someone gets lost and why it can be so hard to find them again. Makes me want to require a GPS for every scout. I do not want a discussion to comment on this particular boy, how it happened or why he couldn't be found. I am sure all that could possibly be done, was done. This is more of a question of learning how a rescue like this can be so difficult. We heard that over 500 people we searching for the scout, but it's hard for us to imagine that many people couldn't find the boy. AK-Eagle and anyone else with this experience, can you help us understand the dynamics of a rescue for someone lost in a wilderness and why it sometimes fails? Again, this is not meant to be a discussion to critique this particular boy and he attempted rescue. We were just wanting to learn. I would have no problem with killing this thread if it turned negative. Thanks everyone. Barry

Our Council has been testing this for a couple years. The paperwork still has to be turned in. I was directly involved a few years ago, but not the last couple years. The intention of this a few years ago was that while the papar work still has to be turned in, the objective is have the unit data put directly into the Council database thus skipping the errors from the middle man. This was our intention a few years ago anyway. You should be able to print the paperwork directly from your computer. Sign it and turn it in with lots of money. If all goes as intended, at least in our council, units will eventally be able to turn in all their advancement forms electronically. The day may come where we do all our scouting from the computer and never leave our chair. Barry

Hi All Ask your SPL what he wants from the group. I know it seems simple, but I find most youth leaders want respect without really understanding that requires them to demand it. I ask them, what is the best way to have an orderly meeting? Take out the annoying part. If a scout is disrupting the meeting, take control and explain he has a choice, if he doesnt want to be in the meeting and is going to continue to disrupt it, he can leave. Otherwise he can stay and help with the meeting. If the scout disrupts the meeting again, and they usually do at first, the SPL then ask them to leave the room. He can ask the scout to find the SM and explain why he was asked to leave. Or the SPL can ask the scout to wait in the hall until after the meeting so they can talk. Just get the annoyance out of the meeting. This type of control requires no yelling, no deal making (three strikes or soccer cards) and none of this holding signs up for 45 minutes. You make your point, move the annoyance out of the meeting and get on with it. If the scout who is asked to leave misses something important, he needs make it up at a time. Part of the problem Ive noticed is scouts feel they need permission to give discipline. You do that by giving some of these simple ideas. The scout-sign should never be use to control a crowd, only for getting attention. If the adults or scouts have to keep using it over and over, it has lost it respect and something else needs to be done. By the way, in our troop the adults usually wait for a youth leader raises his sign. If the group is slow to respond to the sign, then each member of the PLC is expected to help control the group by walking over to a near by disruptive scout asking for his attention. If the scout continues to disrupt, the youth leader quietly leads the scout out of the room to have a talk. The SPL should never have to stand long trying to get attention. Troop discipline is every scouts job, so every youth leader needs to work together with the SPL. Hope this helps a little. I found it took about a year before our PLC had real control with misbehavoir, whether it was a PLC meeting or a troop meeting. We found the Patrol Meeting went better as well. I would walk down the hall and see a scout waiting for the Patrol Meetings to finish and I got to have a little conference. And they say adults have nothing to do in a boy run troop. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I also enjoy the camaraderie of fathers and sons, and the passing of wisdom from one generation to the next.

Hi all >>When it is made known that parents are not welcomed to attend PLCs and/or allowed to participate by offering advice, I feel we do our Scouts a huge disservice.

Hi All >>I don't know why a parent's presence at a PPC would inhibit a boy's input.

Is this the same stuff the outfitters give out that says can be used from washing dishes to brushing teeth? No I didn't, but it says you could. Hmmm, learn something new everyday. Barry

Hi All >>OK One-hour How about this. Meet only with the PLC. Give them the G2SS section covering the water activities and a float trip planner. Explain in an overview how to tell required policies from suggested practices. Then tell the the troop wants do do this activty and will, just as soon as they make a plan that covers all the required policies.

>>Why wouldn't you bring soap? We brought biodegradable soap that was used for cleaning ourselves and cleaning cooking gear. In both cases we were careful to keep soap way away from the lake.

I will throw in another fun Winter weekend our troop goes to now and then. Trappers Rendezvous just north of Wichita Kansas. It's on a three-day weekend, January 16 thru 18. It's well worth the trip and a lot, a lot of fun for the scouts. Over 3500 scouts the last time we went. Here is the address for their web site. http://www.quivira.org/Trappers/ It is not a warm campout like in Southern Texas, but something different and fun. Lots of mountain men and women rein-actors to trade all kinds of stuff and to demonstrate skills of mountain men. We adults find it very relaxing. If you consider this, the scouts need to take stuff to trade because they will do it all day. Barry

OK! Took a little longer than I thought. Two moments? JBKHIKER answered the question, but here is a little more from Calvin, SM in Texas. Tell him to e-mail the Philmont camping department and ask for a Kanik brochure. The brouchures for the 2004-05 Kanik program have been available for about a month. The e-mail address is: camping@philmontscoutranch.org I've been on three Kanik adventures, including one during our Spring Break in March. The best one was in 2000 as we had more snow that year than in '02 & '04. He can read about (and view a slide show) our 2000 trip here: http://www.troop405.org/camps/Kanik.htm As far opportunities in Texas are concerned, the only real Winter type one I know about is the Buffalo Trail Scout Ranch in the Davis Mountains of west Texas. They don't have an organized Winter program but troops can go there and backpack. They have 9,500 acres, including quite a few miles of backpacking trails. Many times, they have snow in the Winter and early Spring. Additional information is on this web page: http://www.buffalotrailbsa.org/camping/btsr_weekendcamping.html Many of the Texas councils have organized Winter Camps but they are like summer camp in that merit badges are featured. My council (Capitol Area) has one (two 3-day sessions) in December but we stopped attending after 2002 because of the large class sizes. For example, 45+ boys in the Camping MB class being taught by a 17 year old boy who spent most of his time reading from the MB booklet. After complaining about the quality of the instruction for several years, I finally gave up and decided to look for something different for our guys. T.W. Cook tells me the 2003 Winter Camp was much better but having 350 boys in what is basically a merit badge mill for Eagle required badges isn't what I'm looking for. Hope this helps. Barry

HI All It's time for an adult meeting and you have to be frank about the damage it is causing. You can't make a person feel guilt, it has to come from them. So put it to them, explain how their personal agenda is hurting the agenda of the other 20 or 30 scouts and you need their help or the troop will suffer. I'm one that doesnt care much for the BSA's present Venturing Patrol idea. It tends to divide a troop more than it helps hold on to older scouts. I have always like the idea of a temporary Venture Patrols. Patrols that only exist for that one outing. The idea requires at least two adults who work as advisers to the scout leading the patrol. Once the outing is over, all the members go back to their regular patrols. The requirements to this patrol would be have the maturity and training for the outing. Not age, rank or popularity. It can be anything to a weekend campout to a 10 day hike in Alaska. We had one for going to Six Flags. You will be amazed how quickly these guys will learn how to plan and lead the group. Their skills will grow by leaps and bounds and young scouts can participate in many of the activities as you all ready know. Take this problem and make it into a bonus for your troop. Present that or something like that to the adults and maybe between the learning that they are hurting the program and modifying their outings into a program to developing leadership and planning skills, you might be able to get these guys on board to scheduling their outings and including the rest of the troop. That is just one thought. You need to get it fixed though, Ive seen this kind of thing tear down a troop. Good luck Barry

OK, good question. I know of several troops in our area that go, but I've not done it myself. So I don't know who to ask. I do have a friend I will contact. One moment please. Barry