Eagledad

>> Are you actually saying that people who don't believe and worship your God are immoral? That non-believers only live by a might-makes-right code? OR are you saying that there is no morality without a grounding in SOME kind of religion, be it Judeo-Christian or other?

Hi All Our troop ran into the same situation while I was SM. We had a new Eagle every month and a half. One Eagle chose to have his COH during a Troop COH and all of a sudden that seem to be the trend. Our committee had the exact same discussion that is going on now. Trev, we decided to not interfer because it was to hard to predict the future. Instead we gave the families several examples of past Eagle COHs so they could choose what would fit best for their family. That worked pretty well because some scouts don't want a big ECOH and others want a wedding size ECOH. We did have one rash of three ECOHs during Troop COHs in six months time. But we have none like the since. My advise is don't worry about it until it becomes a problem. Approach the families with several ideas and allow them to choose. I found it is usually the socuts who follow the trend, but the parents who advise on what is best for the convenience of the family, visitors and speakers. Barry

>>Only God can truly judge

>>Moreover, i can ask the question why would someone want to worship a god that discriminates?

>>I prefer to think that free will is not illusory, if only because it's less depressing.

>>My son is deaf & earned his Eagle so I know a little about dealing with disabilities and how tough it can be.

I want to mention that I had a couple LDS scouts in my units and I know several LDS units in our area camped the whole weekend as non LDS troops. I don't know enough about the religion to comment on their diverisity, just that the families had many choices. Barry

>>There has been talk of setting up a LDS district. I don't know it this is the best idea.

>>Now he is back things do seem to going a lot better in the District. I do question if he really understands this program?

>>you will find the self satisfaction that they have found. You will also find that you are a leader in a very small and ever shrinking troop, just as they have.

>>My inclination is to go over some of the incidents described in this post and say that he isn't providing the leadership and example he needs to qualify for advancement. We could then set some goals for him to achieve, and meet again in thirty days or so to review his progress toward those goals.

Hi all There a lot of good reasons to allow or invite the SPL to the meetings. One comment I remember very well from an SPL; "Wow, now I understand what you have been trying teach me at PLC meetings". We also found that the committee members enjoyed listening and learning the scout's point of view on different subjects. But I would be cautious that he has the time and isn't being pulled in to many directions. I don't think there is right or wrong answer here, only that it should be a positive experience for both the scout and adults. It was been for us. I love this scouting experience. Barry

I really like the idea and respect the amount of work that goes into it. We thought several times about doing our own summer camp because we've never been happy with the quality instruction from BSA camps. I think the number of required adults is what scared us away. But every troop I know that do their own summer camps rarely go back to BSA run camps. The scouts seem to really bond from the experience. I think that must be because they are so immersed in the Patrol Method and the boys work as a team with the adults. Also our troop has planned and run Camporees and our scouts grew from the experience by leaps and bounds. My only comment would be trying to get your younger adults (18 to 21) to be the camp Directors. That way your boy run program doesn't end at age 18, it becomes the next step for growing. You might already be doing this, I don't know. But we do this for our Council JLTC and had very positive experiences. Great stuff. Thanks. Barry

Hi all To me, for scouts to benefit and grow from the Eight Methods, they have to be responsible for them in the program. Each scout is different and he needs some methods more than others at different times during his personal scouting experiences. The responsibility for the adults is the Aims and to insure the methods are part of the program, and guide the scouts as they struggle in their experiences of the methods. I found that when adults push their explanation of methods on the scouts without the scouts experiencing the methods, the scout has less desire to learn. I think our discussions on uniform are a perfect example because we all think we know the value of the uniform, but if it were really that simple, then why do we have so many discussions? No matter what we think of the uniform or any other method, the scouts will likely gain their values and opinions from their experience. Scouts need more than just our lofty words to be convienced. Another example of letting scout experience the responsibility of the Methods is the Patrol Method. One of the big results of the old Wood Badge course were adults going back to there troops and forcing scouts to run a carbon copy of the Fox patrol they experience during the course. The adults focus was not character, fitness or citizenship, it was the perfect camp site. The Patrol Method is an experience of independent approaches to leadership, followship, Teamwork and Teambuilding. But many of the adults didnt allow the scouts their own independent experience because it didnt resemble the Wood Badge experience. When your force a youth to dress like you want him to dress, or run a patrol like you want the patrol run or plan a campout out only the way you want to camp, he not only starts getting bored, he may start disrespecting the method, and the adults and maybe even the scouting program. We want growth and that comes from giving the scout room to practice the methods so he can find himself from the experience. Its good that the adults know the methods so they can help the scout understand, but really it much more important that the adult understand the aims. That way the adult can always lead the scout to the bigger picture of Fitness, character or citizenship instead of the perfect uniform. If we dont allow the scout to experience, learn and grow from the methods, then we risk that the scout will gain nothing at all. Or even worse, he only gains disrespect. Here are a few ways we tried to make the Methods work. The SM reviews Aims and Methods after every SPL election with both the adults and new PLC. Then the SPL is expected to create his six-month goals for the Troop with the Eight Methods in mind. The PLC makes sure activities on the campouts include the practice of Citizenship, Character and Fitness. As BW said, not all that hard once the scouts get in the habit. At our Council JLTC course, we added a class on Aims and Methods for scout participants and a separate class for their adult Leaders on the last day of the course. Of course that has been taken out with the new course. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Barry, I don't mean to come off as sandpaper. I'm just not a "flowery" word type. Sorry if it offends you, but that's the way I am!

>>I really don't think that whatever is posted is going to change the hearts and minds of those who are committed to the "We don't do it that way" train of thought, but there are some new forum members who are new to Scouting and there are us old folks who enjoy exercising the little gray cells.

>>What is wrong with a discussion where about something that some of us feel is at the very heart of what we are doing?

I think it's fine to learn more about this young man, but how about being less formal. Ask him to sit and have a coke with you and the SM. What you learn there would probably determine if you want to call his folks. Sounds like you have a good program. Barry

>>kenk, If you explain your son's special needs to the SPL and to the troop, they will understand. I had to explain one of the scouts who has night terror and claustrophobia to them.

>>You mention breaking in boots with a 100 miles of walking. How do you get scouts to do this.. You must have some outstanding motivational techniques.

>>My point is , the average scout should economise somewhere else, not your feet.

Hi all >>Having said this, I must say that in the past year, the troop has moved in the right directions. We've finally come to embrace the patrol method and are in transition now, and are doing a fair to good job on the other six methods. They'll get even better when the other two cylinders are firing as well. I'm hopeful about this troop's future and I am glad to be a part of the change.

Great Oklahoma Sunday All Interesting topic. I wrote about this lastyear after our WB Course. I didn't post it because I wasn't sure how to introduce it to my friends on the forum. I was walking behind most of the participants on one of our warmer Oklahoma WB days as we had to hike about 100 yards to an event. Just a short stroll really, but it was very clear that this was a difficult hike for many of these wonderful scouters. I counted well over half the class that was clearly over weight. But it wasn't just that. At least a third or more smoked. I remember at least half our staff had to take several smoke breaks during our course training sessions. Should we take better care of ourselves as role models? Just a few years ago one popular adult in our District went to a meeting at Philmont. He was overweight, but it was not a big deal because he was just attendig a two day meeting, no activities. During a lunch break some of the adults took a short stroll and this scouter fell over dead from a heart attack. Our district took his loss pretty hard. Of course you don't have to be over weight to have problems. One adult in our troop had a heart attack on our biking campout. He lived only because there was an EMT crew nearby for a local mountain biking race. We had another adult who was clearly out of shape for our Northern Tier trek. He was stubborn and ignored all our request to get in shape. He just couldn't see how canoeing would be that hard. He had a terrible time that really impacted the crew. He was on a Philmont crew the next year with a promise to get in better shape. He didn't finish the trek because another boy was hurt. He later told me he wouldn't have made it anyway and use the boy as an excuss to quit. The boys knew before the trek he was going to be a problem for the crew. As a role model, he failed our scouts. Lucky for us we put three adults on the crew. Just last week I was honored to be asked to bead a few of the Beavers in last years WB course. Two of the smokers I was talking bragged how they had quit because of a new Oklahoma smoking tax. But the conversation led into how to get rid of that 30 lbs. they gained. I guess all of this really got me thinking after the WB course. I'm in pretty good shape, but I've worked out at least three times week for the last 25 years. Is it fair for me to suggest that maybe National should take a more serious look at this subject, I don't know? I was thinking about you laurie. One thing is for sure, boys very much respect those who walk the walk and your actions do just that. I'm sure your scouts admire you for the example you set. Not just now, but also later in their lives. Barry

Check out Red Head. Bass Pro carries them, I'm not sure who else does. You can look at them on there web site. Barry

Hi all My question is why do you feel they need a boost. What are they missing in the program, did you ask? I have found the adults are to quick to propose a solution to a problem they don't understand. In short, most older scouts start to get bored when the program doesn't challenge their maturity. I have yet to see a program with these same problems solved with High Adventure activities. Adding more adventure to the program is always good, but I find giving the older scout more mature responsibilities over the Troop program is what gives them more satifaction. One way of doing this is handing over some of the adult responsibilities to the scouts and turning the adults into their advisers. We started this with our Troop Web Page and then to the news letter. But we moved on to advancement as well. Eventally we had JASMs for advising Grub Masters and Cheer Masters. Small responsibilites really, but in most troops, it's usually adults who advise those positions. Give it to the older scouts. Those are only suggestions toward raising the maturity of your scout responsibilities, but you can think of better ideas, I'm sure. Next, we found that when you dink with the older scouts, there is a ripple effect all the way down to the new scout. Older Scouts are your most effective role models. The more you take them away from the younger scouts, the more you will slow the scouts growth in behavior and leadership development. In most cases, the troop adults usually get more involved, which takes away even more from boy run. So think about that as you develop the older scout program. Finally, I'm one that doesn't like to use age and rank as a method of planning activities. That may work in most cases, but be careful for that gifted 12 year old who has the ability to go hiking with the 15 year olds and so on. In many cases BSA sponsered activities will have a age restriction like Northern Tier or Philmont. But for your troop backpacking trip, have three levels of hikes so that the more mature experinced scouts take the most challenging route while the least experienced scouts go on the easier trail. That way if you get an eleven year old who has hiked the Appalachain trail every year since he was seven, you aren't restricting his experience in your troop. This happen to us with a scout who raced bikes. He was by far the most experienced biker in our Troop and it would have been silly to not let him ride with our older scouts. Your program sounds really goood. Now that your scouts are going through their puberty age, they think differently. That means more like an adult, so your adults needs need to start thinking in that direction. Think less about age and more about maturity. That way you won't restrict your scouts as they grow. Some grow faster than others, don't hold them back. Hope this helps. Barry