Eagledad

I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership.

My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes  the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership.

I can go on and on of how changes perpetuated membership decline. But, I will mention just one for now what I believe is near the top of the changes that pushed the membership decline; adding Tigers to the Cub program. This is a complex issue, but in short, Tigers forced adult burnout in the program it made the program so long. A few numbers that I gathered 25 years ago was that less than 25% of families who joined the BSA as Tigers joined a Troop five years later. The most devastating statistic is that 50% of Webelos crossed over to the Troop. That is a huge number. And when I researched why families dropped out after Webelos, the basic answer was the program was boring. A little more research and I found that most Webelos leaders were burned out and didn't provide a fun program. The troop program is completely different and would most likely boost scouts toward fun  again, but once a family wants out, it's hard to change their minds.

If I were put in charge of National, I would change many parts of the program, mostly back to the what made the program successful, but I would start by making the Cub program a 4 year program, maybe even 3.5 years, to starve out adult burnout.

Barry

On 1/25/2024 at 1:48 PM, Jameson76 said:

Try to focus on activities and adventure.  Last year, 2023, we did Trip to beach and national seashore island, backpacking in mountain, wide game, putt putt tourney, lock-in, summer camp, trip to State Park and gorge and waterfalls, boating and tubing, kayaking, fishing weekend at mt lake, hiking and exploring mountains with AOL visit.  All requested and run by Scouts

 

Yep, we grew from 15 scouts to 100 in five years and I'm convinced it was because of our adventure program. 

Barry

My experience is older scouts are stubborn about change. Much easier to kind of let them keep their old habits while starting change with the new scouts. It takes a little creativity, but can be done.

Barry

When women were brought in as Troop leaders, I remember the sudden fear of axes in wood tool’s training. Many commented that saws would be their troops go to tool. I reminded them that the saw caused more trips to the emergency room than any other wood tool in scouting. 

One of the things I loved about scouting was the teaching of using tools properly and safely. I remember well how to use the hammer and saw properly at my first Cub Scout Den meeting at the age of six. From the simple poncho to mighty axe, a few simple instructions and some practice turns 12 year old middle schoolers into experts. And I passed along many  of those skills onto my scouts.

As I explained to timid troop leaders in woods tools training, fear is contagious and is extinguished with training. Then I trained them to use both the axe and saw safely.

Barry

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

There it is.  Dr. Bourke and company not withstanding, it is up to THE PARENTS, and everyone else to see that what is RIGHT happens.  The Guidelines are just that, GUIDELINES.   If the people who WATCH and SEE don't speak up, don't say something, the GUIDELINES mean zilch.  

Yep. If parents are waiting for more safety policies, I can't imagine what they would be other than reporting the incidents at higher levels so they don't get covered up. We had a lot of discussions here about safety improvements and nothing significant was brought up, mostly because BSA policies are pretty good. Funny, you don't hear parents being worried about schools when sexual abuse is report every week in the news.

I will say I have observed parents of units hesitating to act on issues of adults making bad decisions. Not just abuses, but issues where adults need correction. I think it's because they don' t want to get involved being a bad guy. I have watched these things ignored mainly because nobody will act. It is concerning and I spoke about it often adults in training. Leaders need to stand up and protect scouts from adults making bad discissions.

Barry

3 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

This topic is going to get a lot of mixed comments.  As a starting point, how about a meeting with the boy, parents, and key 3. 

This is a really good suggestion.

When I think back of the several troubled scouts we experienced, the parents were the key to our decisions, successes and failures. Some parents are the cause of the problem and cause further unforeseen complications (drama). Some parents are all-in for helping provide a positive environment to give their son positives role models and experiences of good behavior. It is remarkable to witness the change. A few become great adults.

I taught in adult leadership that scouters HAVE to see themselves only as part of the parents team to develop their kids into adults. You are just a team member, Nothing more. Being a Scoutmaster does not raise your influence higher than the teacher, Sunday school teacher, coach or even the parents themselves. So, if the parents don't want to respect the situation as it is, then you can expect no support, and likely a lot of hassle. 

Start with talking to the parents.

Barry

55 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This is the point that is being made. Well, with the extension that when lack of perfection occurs, we accept that, and move on with delivering the program. What you control is the bar. Set the bar, but at the same time don't let lack of uniform perfection keep scouts out of the program.

Folks always seem to revert to extremes when discussing the uniform.

The uniform is part of scouting, so don’t make less than that. The uniform  gives the youth identity and a tool for developing character. The community responds to the uniform with fondness, respect and support. The uniform is part of the romantic adventure to the image of scouting.

Make the most of it and have fun.

Barry

26 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Absolutely, that's all true.

The question isn't whether you should set high expectations, the question is what you do with those individuals who consistently do not meet those expectations. Do you let it slide or do you kick them out?

Piers and role models set the expectations. In cubs, our den leaders wore the uniform and encouraged unity. In the troop, the PLC set the expectation.

of course it will never be perfect, but the uniform is part of the fun of scouting. Have fun.

Barry

On 10/8/2023 at 6:17 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Great point. I'll add: If the BSA is going to survive, it has to be OK with being every family's 2nd or 3rd favorite activity. I'm a Den Leader and it's not uncommon to see kids arrive 15 minutes late in their soccer or baseball uniform with a bag of food from Subway. You'll never hear me make a peep about their timing or appearance. I'm just glad they made it. 

 

My high school teacher son said his experience of low quality schools to high quality schools come down to expectation from the faculty. My experience as a scout leader from cubs to council was the same. Scouts will make an effort if they are appreciated for it. You are not giving the scouts the opportunity to shine. Even a scout shirt and football pants shows willingness to show their pride of being a scout.

Barry

15 hours ago, VinceABQ said:

I'm an Counselor for E Prep. 

Rqmt 7a is easily met by participation in a school fire or shooter drill.   But what do I do with a home schooled boy?   I tried to connect to our county E Dept, they said they were going to do a drill now (Balloon Fiesta) but never got back to me, even when I emailed them in advance.  I'm looking for a way to meet the rqmt that doesn't rely of the county govt, got any suggestions?

Contact me at HH-Co7@comcast.net

Vince, Albuquerque

Our town use to include the scouts in emergency prep drills, but then liability became an issue for a real emergency. Tornadoes are common around here. Leaving youth out of the process is safer and less risky for the community.

Barry

On a personal note, Albuquerque is home to me. I lived near the Sandia mountains as a youth. 

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

My hope for my cubs is that they cross over ready to pitch a tent, pack their gear, read a map, and cook for their patrol, and find their pride in that they can do it themselves. Perhaps sloppily and inefficiently. But knowing from doing what it means to be prepared.

This is my hands-on contribution to the future of the BSA. 

But not to ready. The largest group of first year scouts that quit our troop in 6 months had experience camping every month during webelos. They were simply bored. Part of the adventure of being in a troop is learning scout skills from other scouts. A few scouts skills to get them wanting more is ok, but cubs with first class experience tend to leave because the troop program doesn’t live up to the hype.

I used to teach webelos leaders that we would rather have scouts with no outdoors experience who are confident standing in front of groups and mingling with older scouts than trained campers. Our scouts can teach anyone to camp, but the shy scout or camping expert are much harder to mix in the program because they tend to want adult guidance to make them comfortable.

Barry

4 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Well, not just boys, but more importantly - it's not the scout socks, belt, and pants that are so distinctive. It's the necker, the woggle, and the shirt with badges that's so recognizable.

You can drop a good number of official BSA uniform items before anyone not in the BSA even notices, and popcorn selling has also taught me that not even former (and sometimes even current 🤦🏼‍♀️) scouts can always tell a BSA uniform from a GSUSA uniform. 

When I was a scout, our uniform consisted entirely of the shirt and the necker with woggle. No alternates, not pants or socks or hats or multiple "classes" or uniforms. (Still have no idea what that actually means.) BSA uniform requirements are off the chain - inspection sheets? Really? For 5, 6, 7, 8-year-olds?

I respect what you are saying, but we will have to agree to disagree.

Barry

16 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I agree. When my kids were in costs were a lot less but even so the pack made their own neckerchiefs with a silk screen design. These days with new uniform parts for each grade/rank in cubs it is recidulous! Also, the shear number of pins and badges for cubs is out of control. This all adds to the costs of the program. Some units have a Tshirt as a class B uniform which is GREAT. It promotes the pack and their location/chartered partner. We need more of that. A sharp tshirt is something the kids may wear to school or other activities and can be a recruiting tool. Anything that keeps kids and families away from the program is a negative. The benefits of membership and participation are too important. The units should set their own standards and as long as it isn't sloppy I'm in favor. 

I disagree. Almost anyone in the world can identify a Boy Scout uniform. It represents character and integrity. Even after the Girl Scouts did away from their traditional uniform, it was still the uniform used in movies because it identifies with the organization worldwide. I understand that the GSUSA is moving back toward that uniform.

Barry

3 hours ago, SSScout said:

"It depends"

Some years ago,  a fellow Commisher and I helped a local church (of un-named faith)  start a Scout Troop.  It was unabashedly a part of their "Sunday School".  

It lasted exactly three years and then decomposed....   The unofficial evidence was the religious leaders were too heavy handed in their goal of "conversion"....

Unfortunately, I've seen many heavy handed non-religious adult troops decompose. Sadly, one does not have to be religious to be zealot.

Barry

Anyone heard of LDS troops? There are a lot of COs that require church membership because the units are part of their youth program. I know of one Troop that only registered home schoolers because the Troop was the socializing part of their program.

I think it's a benefit for the BSA that Scouting can be a tool for programs that need an organize youth program. We are likely to see more of it since girls can be member now.

Barry

I remember someone from National in the early 90's saying the majority of scout abuse complaints were filed against the MB Counselors. This might be an approach to addressing that issue.

Barry

2 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL.  This is a rare occurrence.  They keep observing the trends, but usually take no action to correct.  They talk a good game about how to fix something, often coming up with good ideas, but hardly ever implement their fix.  This is very annoying, but, in our Troop culture, the adults know not to step in and do it for them.

Yes, true. But often the adults expect action quicker than the scouts maturity allows. They just go a little slower because they don't yet have the life skills of acting on discovery. Or the scouts may not yet feel enabled to act freely. That happens a lot and youth learning to trust adults takes a while. Adults can say it all day long, but it's their actions that take to the scouts.

Mentoring is the skill of guiding the mentored to discover the problem and create and action. Those kinds of mentoring skills take a lot of practice and risks because human nature doesn't change until annoyance drives us to make the effort to change. But, sometimes the mentor has to cross the line to know the limits of mentoring discovery and change to pushing so hard that the mentored quit having fun and would rather stay home to play video games. 

Scouting for adults in a "scout run" program is a lot harder than in a "adult run" program because the adults in the scout run program mentor each scout individually. Where as adults in the adult run program guide, coach, and mentor by groups, leaving out individual decision making. For example. Scouts in an adult run troop tend to all dress exactly alike because that is no tolerance for individual choices in wearing the uniform. Adults in adult run troops tend to measure their program by how the scouts behave and look as a group.

On the other hand, the adults in the scout run program want scouts to discover their the value traits that lead to their choices by providing a safe environment where scouts aren't intimidated to make choices based from their personal values. We humans don't feel motivated to change our values until we find ourselves annoyed by our bad choices. The adults have to let the scouts make choices that end up as an annoyance to them. The parent in us adults struggle to watch scouts screw up.

Scout run troops eventually function better and with higher maturity than adult run troops because the scouts have disciplined themselves to serve each other, which results in fun program with great leadership. Youth run troops tend to have older scouts and have more fun. The scouts have learned and practiced the skills of planning fun activities and following through to make them happen. That takes a while, but when it happens, the adults struggle to keep up.

Barry

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although the guidelines are very loose for SM conferences, I see what you propose as out of place.

So what happens when you find out Johnny does not know a skill, but says he did it once and got it signed off?  If you aren't observing the instruction and evaluations, how do you know the instructors and evaluators are teaching correctly?

Good question. The short answer is that the boys perform enough of these skills in their normal fun everyday routine activities to demonstrate the troop average level of skill proficiency.  Now, obviously including exercises in activities that require these is skills can be challenging. But, just one activity will demonstrate many skills from tying knots to leadership, and even living the Scout Law. Program activities provide the senior leaders and adults a wide view of troops skills proficiency. Skills proficiency, or lack there of, should be obvious to everyone. The program is maturing when the scouts observe trends of deficiencies and act to correct them.

Also, a scout should have more than one conference, or intimate conversation, with the adult leadership before a BOR. So, many in fact, the scout doesn't even know that their casual conversation about the family gave the adult some insight to  the scouts knowledge and experience in the troop program. These discussions can occur in the car during the drive to camp, or while backpacking to camp. A few minutes at a gas stop while drinking a coke. Scouts love to talk about themselves. Theoretically the scout could get his conference signed off during many of those discussions. The SM or adults should already know the answers to the questions in the conference the scout requested for sign off.

A program that operates this way is a lot of fun for the both the adults and scouts because the constant maturing is rewarding. Even parents notice it.

Barry

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That is too late.  SM & ASMs should be doing "random sampling" of sign-offs to gauge instruction and completion of the requirements as stated.  That is, they mentor the instructors and evaluators...

I find SM conferences are fine for random sampling and quality checks. The SM only needs to check a few Scout Books to see a trend. More than that has the appearance of checking up on the scouts. 

Barry

14 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

 Tonight at the end of the Troop meeting I heard the SM talk about how they started work on Citizenship in Nation and then went on to say "If you work hard and finish up in the next two meetings we bla bla bla.

Hmm, yes, well! There are a whole of things wrong even before starting with "If you work..........".

I'm trying to imagine one of the scouts talking to a neighbor friend at home saying; "Hey, you want to come to our troop meeting tonight? We are spending an hour and a half working on (listening to an adult) the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge".

If a scout misses one of those meetings, is his life better or worse? I'm betting even the adults are dreading it.

Barry

1 minute ago, skeptic said:

Over time I have sat on one or two boards where similar circumstances brought the youth not attired as we prefer.  But, in our district we would never not do the board.  Most of the time it was due to an adult issue, or uncooperative coaches, sadly.  The kind that give ultimatums.  Another was he was on a diner break from his employment.  But, since it is the youth we are evaluating, not his attire, it should not matter.  And often, these small glitches can lead to more open communication.  

 

I once asked a scout if the choice of not wearing the uniform as expected was a right or wrong choice. He knew it was wrong.

I agree there are circumstances when the scout doesn't have a choice to wear the uniform, but often it is just an excuse. One scout walks in from baseball practice and joins in the activities because he didn't have time to change. Another goes strait to the bathroom and changes and arrives a couple minutes later. Which sets the better example? I had the same situation with adults.

You may not be evaluating the scouts attire, but you should be evaluating his choices, even with the uniform. Which leads to more communication.

I guess the uniform is a small thing for a lot of adults and too weighted for others. We all have our priorities. But, I taught that the uniform has equal impact on the scouts growth as the many other tools used to force hard choices. What is important is how the adult uses the uniform as a tool. Some adults use it for an opportunity of power. Some adults use the use the uniform to give the scouts opportunities to show integrity. 

Barry 

I believe that the scout program is separate from the adult program of supporting the scouts. That being said, the scouts have been raised to respect the adults as their guardians since they were born. For most scouts, the troop is their first experience to true independence of making decisions that effect their experience in the immediate environment, and the experience of others in the immediate environment.  In fact, it is a perception that interrupts the intentions of the patrol method and is hard to elevate from the program. Scouts DO watch the adults and note hypocrisy. Hypocrisy does dim the effectiveness of adult mentoring, coaching and teaching. At the very least if lessens the adult integrity.

So, if the unit wants the scouts to truly trust that the adults will give them free reign to run the youth part of the program and make their own decisions, they need some effort from the adults that are taking the program seriously. Adults can't help themselves and will have many expectations of the scouts even though they shouldn't. As I said, we can help ourselves.

I know adults differ a lot on the strength of uniforming for growth in moral values. I personally believe uniforming is very powerful in the ability of giving scouts individuality, leadership practice, team pride, group acceptance, and practice of making right or wrong decisions. I also found that the uniform is a great indicator of the scout mood or temperament, especially when home life isn't going well or they are being bullied.

That is the back ground; So, at the very least, the Scoutmaster needs set the example of how to dress. Most adults don't realize how much youth look at the top leader as the role model of behavior and vision. I personally believe the ASMs should dress as the scoutmaster, not the scouts or the book or whatever. The Scoutmaster sets the tone of behavior for all the troop in behavior and moral obedience. That is not a directive, but more of a natural humanistic response. Not that the adults will follow dress identical to the scoutmaster, but they will notice the tone. And the scouts will notice the SM Corp. And, it is very important for the SM to understand that the SM handbook does have uniforming guidelines.

Our troop recruits parents for the BOR and most are not registered leaders. So, I have no trouble with non uniformed board members, but that is personal to our troop. Scouts understand the difference between the SM Corp and all the other adults.

I don't believe in hounding scouts to dress like the SM. I do believe in teaching the PLC that the scout handbook gives each scout uniform recommendations. They are leaders and leaders the scout handbook is an important guide to how scouts should perform and behave in the troop. And I let them control, or not, how their scouts dress. This is a scout run program after all. I find that most true scout run troops are typically less uniformed that adult led troops. But, they have more mature youth leaders. Youth leaders will typically take uniform seriously, but they don't hound their scouts. Uniforming seems to be a good indicator of maturity. Older scouts typical dress very well (like the SM) most of the time. 

I know this is a long way of saying that the adults should have some guidelines to uniforming, and it should start with the SM. But, don't make uniform a pride thing. Uniform has a purpose and if method is used correctly, scouts and adults will wear the uniform to show their pride of being a Scout or scouter in your troop. Pride of the troop can't be force, it has to be developed over time.

Barry

13 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow, this has gotten way of track...my initial post is simple, its a shame that a young man was forced to make a decision wherein he felt as though he could no longer be a part of an organization that goes against his morals, values and beliefes, an this is a common reaction to the current state of the BSA.  Agree or disagree, interpreting this how ever you like, it's a sad state of affairs.

I don't think the thread got off track, it just went directions that we struggle with. You said it best, ""This is an axample of a young man who stands firm on his beliefs no matter how hard others try to change his mind.""

I think most of us struggle with the BSA either standing to firm or not standing firm enough in the morals, values and beliefs of this culture. Scouting provides the scouts with a set parameter's in the Oath and Law to reflect a process for acting selfless toward others. But, even with those given parameters, each scout comes from a personal experience that directs morality of their own beliefs.

It goes without saying that all of us aren't going to agree with everything in the decision making processes toward each other. If your post shows us anything, it's the strength and courage to make hard choices. A good lesson for all of us. 

Barry

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

After that, I dealt with self righteous older scouts who should know better but disregarded the same points of the Scout Law — justifying doing so on the shaky grounds that it was their last day of camp.

I once read from a Scoutmaster back in the 1930's say: "Finding an annoyance that trumps self-righteous satisfaction is a constant challenge for the Scoutmaster".

I have enough experience now to agree.

Barry