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Eagledad

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Posts posted by Eagledad

  1. 12 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    So - could you please confirm whether you do or do not believe that men and women have equal inherent human value?

    No, I won't. I'm confident that I didn't say anything where one gender is lesser than the other because that is not in my heart.  You will find that I'm very much a proponent of growing by practicing the Oath and Law. 

    That being said, each gender is born with different instinctive behaviors specific to their gender that aid them in maturing mentally and physically to adulthood. It's not just humans, All animals have these instincts. Once we understand these instinctive desires, we learn how to use them to their best advantage.

    I know from life experiences and education that mixing genders does not provide the best environment for the BSA Mission of developing moral and ethical decision-makers using the Scout Oath and Law. At least up to puberty. After puberty, the instincts are more beneficial for behavior growth in mixed-gender environments.

    I also don't believe that most scouts gain, in the Troop patrol method experience, some growth simply by being exposed to the other gender. The Oath and Law are values that demand respect of everyone.  And not just in the scouting area. But, the scouting arena is one of the few safe places where youth can make wrong decisions without being judged disparagingly for it. Simply, the more wrong decisions a youth makes during scouting activities, the more they grow in wisdom from the experience, IF the adults encourage that kind of atmosphere. I like to say that the Troop is the youth-size real life. I come to this forum to pass along lessons I learned to encourage that kind of atmosphere.

    Now, I never thought I would have to speak for qwazse, but he is one of the most experienced Scouters you will ever meet and his wisdom on any scouting subject speaks loudly. He is also one of the most profound speakers for girls in scouting on this forum. In fact, it is one of the very few areas that we disagree. He has a daughter who was a very active Scout in the BSA long before girls were brought in the Packs and Troops. For some reason, she doesn't care for boys from Oklahoma, but that is another story. There are a few Scouters on this forum that when they say something, you just have to take it as fact because they have been there and done that. Qwazse is one of them.

    I think you will enjoy this forum for the vast knowledge you can gain, and also the vast knowledge you can provide to those looking (desperate) to improve their program. Many of us have A LOT of experience in all parts of scouting from Cub Scouts to Council positions. Now maybe we don't always agree, but we have a lot of respect for each other's advice and opinions because the opinions and advice come from humble wisdom gained from years of experience.  Sounds like you fit there as well.

    Barry

    • Upvote 3
  2. 3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

    Frankly, when I was CC for a pack, we created a program that met the needs/wants/expectations of the kids and parents and virtually had ZERO dropout (except for those that moved away). We grew from a half dozen families to well over 50 and had multiple Webelos Dens that crossed over with their leaders to rebuild the troop. Dens had their own field trips appropriate for the age/ability of the kids and the pack ran a full 12 month program. If a kid and family come to the signup night, the program is for them if you meet their needs/expectations. 

     

     

    Well done! You certainly have the right to brag. 

    However, your program is rare. Typically only one or two packs and troops in a district are that successful.

    Most Scout Leaders enjoy volunteering. But only 5% are passionate enough to build a top tier program. Most of who you see here on this Forum are in the 5%. Oh, some of them will even announce they are done with scouting are leaving the forum. But they still hang around bringing experience to our campfire. We couldn't get rid of Fred even if we wanted to. Which we don't. Man he's good.

    Barry

  3. All well said DuctTape.

    From our experience of letting scouts do sign-off. I think you can do all the ranks up to first class. Honestly, it's not a hard process for the scouts. But, we limited it to first-class scouts to ensure they, theoretically, knew the skills and had the maturity to take it seriously. The Scoutmaster will be the quality controller because they look at the Scout's book during the SM Conference.

    We held a class every six months after the elections to train the new First-Class scouts on the proper procedure for testing (verifying the skill) and signing off.

    They take it as an honor. I remember a friend of one of our scouts switched from another troop to ours because he was so impressed with the scouts doing the sign-offs. Very few of our scouts even knew that our troop was rare with scouts doing it. 

    And I agree with multiple Scoutmaster conferences. I believe the SM should know everything about the scout when he does the rank advancement conference just from his many discussions with the scout. And, the chat doesn't have to be official, I know of one scout who was shocked when I asked for his book to sign it off. He thought it was just another one of our how's-it-going chats. 

    Barry

    • Upvote 1
  4. 13 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Exactly. Scouters who think that women have less intrinsic value than men are not going to be able to do a good job of growing units with girls, and if they're teaching boys that, then they are also failing to deliver good moral training. Clarifying whether we have such problems is practically important. I doubt Eagledad is trying to recruit girls, but this is not a private conversation and girls reading something in that direction here aren't going to be magnetized.

    This has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of either gender. It's about providing a program that gives each the best opportunity for growth. We could just call the genders A & B, so the biases don't cloud the discussion.

    Barry

  5. 1 hour ago, DannyG said:

    While I believe scouting can be done by everyone... If they found the program is boring after a few years, then I don't think the scouting program is for them.

    Scouting at the troop level incorporates a lot of different skills: Physical Fitness, use of tools and equipment, knowledge of the outdoors and nature, First Aid, backcountry skills, etc. Today there are a lot of activities competing for kids' attention. The urge today is to excel at one singular activity. A kid interested in Physical Fitness can choose a sport. A kid whose interest is in learning can choose  to focus on academics. They aren't all interested in the outdoor program and high adventure, so they  ultimately lose interest in scouting.

    Our Cub Scout Pack committee kept up a great program of fun monthly activities, spring/fall camping trips, and a winter cabin weekend to keep the Cubs engaged even if the den meetings got stale. We had a lot of Cub Scouts who came to the weekly meetings but were not interested in the extra activities. Perhaps they liked making crafts, doing service projects, learning new things or belonging to something... But they weren't as much interested in the camping trips. Most of them didn't make it to crossover. The program ultimately isn't for them.

    I learned over the years with Cub Scouts, that the scouts usually do what the parents guide them to do. Now that can mean the scout wants out and the parent agrees. But, I did pretty extensive research with the Webelos and I'm convinced that adult burnout contributes to at least 70% of the Webelos non-crossovers. That is conservative. 

    I even started a district program called Longbow that encouraged troops to help the Webelos den leaders provide a fun program. I killed the program because the target group of burned-out leaders wouldn't attend any of the activities to communicate with the troop leaders. The program was a great success for active Webelos leaders looking for more adventure. But, that wasn't the purpose of the program and I didn't want to add another district program to maintain if it wasn't productive. 

    As for the Troop scouts, the BSA looses more scouts from the first-year scout group than any other scouting age group. I found the problem is that the sudden jump from an adult association (including parents, teachers, cub leaders, and so on) to relying on scout-age leaders is more traumatic than most people realize. At first, the 10 year olds are excited that the scouts run the show, but once they realize that their safety of surviving in the cold dark woods is dependent on the scouts, and not the adults who have protected them all their life, their perspective changes. 

    I also learned that if a scout hasn't quit by the end of their first summer (summer camp), that scout will likely hang around for several years. This isn't a new issue with the BSA, I found this huge first-year scout dropouts as far back as the 60s, which was as far back as I could find records.

    One idea for keeping first-year scouts is having an ASM who works as a team with the patrol leaders as a kind of PL assistant. A rarely seen assistant. The new scout and parents are instructed to call the ASM when they are unsure of what is going on. The ASM will gently guide them back to the patrol leader to help them get their information. The goal is to show the scout and family that the PL knows what they are doing and everything will work out fine. The trick is for the ASM to help the scout and family communicate with the PL to get them used to trusting the PL. It takes a little practice for the ASM and PL to work as a team, but the ASM is usually completely out of the picture within 3 or 4 months, just in time for summer camp.

    Barry

    • Upvote 1
  6. 29 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Do you have anything at all supporting this theory? 

    I have 40 years of working with youth, some training, and a couple of mentors who are professors in child psychology and life in general as a father and husband. I've experienced enough to know.

    34 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    In my experience, groups of just or almost only girls/women are prone to Mean Girls dynamics, and groups of almost only boys/men (and so presumably also only men) are prone to Dude Bro dynamics. Enough boys breaks up the mean girl dynamic and enough girls breaks up the bros, and both genders get the opportunity to see the strengths of the other gender's default way of handling something. Whatever gender you are, you can learn something from others.

    Well that's a nice generality. I don't even know how to respond to such a generalization, but it is a bit condescending honestly. Just what do each gender offer that the other will learn that isn't in the Scout Oath or Law?

    Before you go on with your observations, the actions and reactions of youth are generally instinctive. Someone said boys like to hang around boys. Well yes, and if you watch girls, they aren't running around trying to find private space. Until puberty, hanging groups is a primitive natural defensive response of safety from predators. While that response isn't required in the modern day, it is still there, and understanding it helps in how to work with the scouts. Mean girls? More generalization of not understanding human instinct. As girls get closer to puberty, they become INSTINCTIVELY more competitive and aggressive in a passive-aggressive sort of way. I had many discussions with my daughter at this age. 

    52 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    When it comes to character and integrity, I'll just share my observation that there is a very tight inverse relationship between how much time men spent around girls when they were kids - before puberty - and how much they objectify women. It's striking on the individual level and mirrors rape and other sexual assault statistics at a country level. Men who spent a lot of time around girls as children clearly have a much easier time recognizing that we are also human beings like them.

    I can assure you that I have vast experience in that whole statement and can say, your conclusion is not normal reality. And, you certainly can't use victims, or observers, of sexual assaults and abuse to generalize what a person before or after puberty will gain from the experience in the normal world. Even divorce changes how a youth approaches their perspective of relationships. You can't pick extreme examples of humanism experiences to build ONE program for 50 to 100 youth. Let's stick to scouting to put some boundaries on our opinions.

    1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    If gender segregation created people of high integrity and character, Saudi Arabia, India, and Pakistan should be paragons of integrity and character. I submit that they are not, because of the general lack of respect for women.

    Wow, hmm. Shesh.

    Gender separation doesn't create integrity or character. Practicing the values of integrity and character develops integrity and character.  I can't find anything in the Oath and Law that has anything to do with gender. 

    1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Or - and I want to clarify that I'm only asking because someone else actually brought this up earlier - do you think that viewing women as having the same intrinsic human value as men is also a mistake, and as such not related to character and integrity?

    OK, I even looked up intrinsic human values and still didn't quite understand the question in reference to this discussion. But, I'm wondering if you view this discussion as males vs females. I know my part hasn't approached it that way. But, If males are different than females physically, is it so far out there to believe they instinctively and intellectually are different as well?

    Barry

  7. 43 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Do I understand you correctly to be saying that all the millions of scouts that have scouted in gender-integrated programs over the decades did not develop the best character or integrity?

    Yes. Each gender grows and matures differently and mixing the genders dilutes the strengths of the program for developing character and integrity.

    Barry

  8. 12 hours ago, Ojoman said:

    A great decision and parents of girls in the program are much more likely to step up and take leadership positions which has been on the decline for decades. We need both. About the only decision made in the past 5 decades that I 100% agree with. 

    Boys and girls are different. That includes developing behavior maturity, or character in the specific case of scouting. Girls and boys have different instinctive behaviors that add to developing maturity in moral and ethical decision-making. So, mixing genders can, and does, interfere with the best potential of developing mature decision makers of integrity. For the best development of character and integrity, some folks would rather use the environment of single gender units, at least up to puberty. 

    Barry

    • Like 1
  9. 1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Yes, this I agree with. I'm a cub scouter so haven't had to deal with this yet, but yes, it seems quite wasteful and/or muddling the leadership roles. I'm expecting that this will become obvious as this goes on and someone at National will say "this is dumb, let's just all scout together."

    Just curious, is there room in your program for units that want to be single-gender? Is it optional?

    Barry

  10. 1 hour ago, Ojoman said:

    You have some good and valid thoughts. The BSA has tried to mirror the GSA who dropped their age/grade requirements. As BSA traditional membership declined they added Tigers to boost numbers but failed to realize retention as the Cub program was now too long. 

     

    The Tiger age Daisies scouts in the GSA are a separate program from the older Brownies. That makes managing the groups much easier with age appropriate activities and materials. The BSA doesn't have to quit recruiting First Graders, just develop a separate program. The could even add pre-school age youth. Trying to plan a Pack Meeting that is fun for both toddlers and near preteen scouts is very challenging.

    Barry

    • Like 1
  11. I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership.

    My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes  the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership.

    I can go on and on of how changes perpetuated membership decline. But, I will mention just one for now what I believe is near the top of the changes that pushed the membership decline; adding Tigers to the Cub program. This is a complex issue, but in short, Tigers forced adult burnout in the program it made the program so long. A few numbers that I gathered 25 years ago was that less than 25% of families who joined the BSA as Tigers joined a Troop five years later. The most devastating statistic is that 50% of Webelos crossed over to the Troop. That is a huge number. And when I researched why families dropped out after Webelos, the basic answer was the program was boring. A little more research and I found that most Webelos leaders were burned out and didn't provide a fun program. The troop program is completely different and would most likely boost scouts toward fun  again, but once a family wants out, it's hard to change their minds.

    If I were put in charge of National, I would change many parts of the program, mostly back to the what made the program successful, but I would start by making the Cub program a 4 year program, maybe even 3.5 years, to starve out adult burnout.

    Barry

     

     

    • Upvote 2
  12. On 1/25/2024 at 1:48 PM, Jameson76 said:

    Try to focus on activities and adventure.  Last year, 2023, we did Trip to beach and national seashore island, backpacking in mountain, wide game, putt putt tourney, lock-in, summer camp, trip to State Park and gorge and waterfalls, boating and tubing, kayaking, fishing weekend at mt lake, hiking and exploring mountains with AOL visit.  All requested and run by Scouts

     

    Yep, we grew from 15 scouts to 100 in five years and I'm convinced it was because of our adventure program. 

    Barry

    • Upvote 1
  13. When women were brought in as Troop leaders, I remember the sudden fear of axes in wood tool’s training. Many commented that saws would be their troops go to tool. I reminded them that the saw caused more trips to the emergency room than any other wood tool in scouting. 

    One of the things I loved about scouting was the teaching of using tools properly and safely. I remember well how to use the hammer and saw properly at my first Cub Scout Den meeting at the age of six. From the simple poncho to mighty axe, a few simple instructions and some practice turns 12 year old middle schoolers into experts. And I passed along many  of those skills onto my scouts.

    As I explained to timid troop leaders in woods tools training, fear is contagious and is extinguished with training. Then I trained them to use both the axe and saw safely.

    Barry

    • Confused 1
  14. 1 hour ago, SSScout said:

    There it is.  Dr. Bourke and company not withstanding, it is up to THE PARENTS, and everyone else to see that what is RIGHT happens.  The Guidelines are just that, GUIDELINES.   If the people who WATCH and SEE don't speak up, don't say something, the GUIDELINES mean zilch.  

    Yep. If parents are waiting for more safety policies, I can't imagine what they would be other than reporting the incidents at higher levels so they don't get covered up. We had a lot of discussions here about safety improvements and nothing significant was brought up, mostly because BSA policies are pretty good. Funny, you don't hear parents being worried about schools when sexual abuse is report every week in the news.

    I will say I have observed parents of units hesitating to act on issues of adults making bad decisions. Not just abuses, but issues where adults need correction. I think it's because they don' t want to get involved being a bad guy. I have watched these things ignored mainly because nobody will act. It is concerning and I spoke about it often adults in training. Leaders need to stand up and protect scouts from adults making bad discissions.

    Barry

    • Upvote 4
  15. 3 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

    This topic is going to get a lot of mixed comments.  As a starting point, how about a meeting with the boy, parents, and key 3. 

    This is a really good suggestion.

    When I think back of the several troubled scouts we experienced, the parents were the key to our decisions, successes and failures. Some parents are the cause of the problem and cause further unforeseen complications (drama). Some parents are all-in for helping provide a positive environment to give their son positives role models and experiences of good behavior. It is remarkable to witness the change. A few become great adults.

    I taught in adult leadership that scouters HAVE to see themselves only as part of the parents team to develop their kids into adults. You are just a team member, Nothing more. Being a Scoutmaster does not raise your influence higher than the teacher, Sunday school teacher, coach or even the parents themselves. So, if the parents don't want to respect the situation as it is, then you can expect no support, and likely a lot of hassle. 

    Start with talking to the parents.

    Barry

    • Upvote 4
  16. 55 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    This is the point that is being made. Well, with the extension that when lack of perfection occurs, we accept that, and move on with delivering the program. What you control is the bar. Set the bar, but at the same time don't let lack of uniform perfection keep scouts out of the program.

    Folks always seem to revert to extremes when discussing the uniform.

    The uniform is part of scouting, so don’t make less than that. The uniform  gives the youth identity and a tool for developing character. The community responds to the uniform with fondness, respect and support. The uniform is part of the romantic adventure to the image of scouting.

    Make the most of it and have fun.

    Barry

    • Upvote 4
  17. 26 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Absolutely, that's all true.

    The question isn't whether you should set high expectations, the question is what you do with those individuals who consistently do not meet those expectations. Do you let it slide or do you kick them out?

    Piers and role models set the expectations. In cubs, our den leaders wore the uniform and encouraged unity. In the troop, the PLC set the expectation.

    of course it will never be perfect, but the uniform is part of the fun of scouting. Have fun.

    Barry

  18. On 10/8/2023 at 6:17 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

    Great point. I'll add: If the BSA is going to survive, it has to be OK with being every family's 2nd or 3rd favorite activity. I'm a Den Leader and it's not uncommon to see kids arrive 15 minutes late in their soccer or baseball uniform with a bag of food from Subway. You'll never hear me make a peep about their timing or appearance. I'm just glad they made it. 

     

    My high school teacher son said his experience of low quality schools to high quality schools come down to expectation from the faculty. My experience as a scout leader from cubs to council was the same. Scouts will make an effort if they are appreciated for it. You are not giving the scouts the opportunity to shine. Even a scout shirt and football pants shows willingness to show their pride of being a scout.

    Barry

  19. 15 hours ago, VinceABQ said:

    I'm an Counselor for E Prep. 

    Rqmt 7a is easily met by participation in a school fire or shooter drill.   But what do I do with a home schooled boy?   I tried to connect to our county E Dept, they said they were going to do a drill now (Balloon Fiesta) but never got back to me, even when I emailed them in advance.  I'm looking for a way to meet the rqmt that doesn't rely of the county govt, got any suggestions?

    Contact me at HH-Co7@comcast.net

    Vince, Albuquerque

    Our town use to include the scouts in emergency prep drills, but then liability became an issue for a real emergency. Tornadoes are common around here. Leaving youth out of the process is safer and less risky for the community.

    Barry

    On a personal note, Albuquerque is home to me. I lived near the Sandia mountains as a youth. 

  20. 1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    My hope for my cubs is that they cross over ready to pitch a tent, pack their gear, read a map, and cook for their patrol, and find their pride in that they can do it themselves. Perhaps sloppily and inefficiently. But knowing from doing what it means to be prepared.

    This is my hands-on contribution to the future of the BSA. 

    But not to ready. The largest group of first year scouts that quit our troop in 6 months had experience camping every month during webelos. They were simply bored. Part of the adventure of being in a troop is learning scout skills from other scouts. A few scouts skills to get them wanting more is ok, but cubs with first class experience tend to leave because the troop program doesn’t live up to the hype.

    I used to teach webelos leaders that we would rather have scouts with no outdoors experience who are confident standing in front of groups and mingling with older scouts than trained campers. Our scouts can teach anyone to camp, but the shy scout or camping expert are much harder to mix in the program because they tend to want adult guidance to make them comfortable.

    Barry

    • Upvote 2
  21. 4 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

    Well, not just boys, but more importantly - it's not the scout socks, belt, and pants that are so distinctive. It's the necker, the woggle, and the shirt with badges that's so recognizable.

    You can drop a good number of official BSA uniform items before anyone not in the BSA even notices, and popcorn selling has also taught me that not even former (and sometimes even current 🤦🏼‍♀️) scouts can always tell a BSA uniform from a GSUSA uniform. 

    When I was a scout, our uniform consisted entirely of the shirt and the necker with woggle. No alternates, not pants or socks or hats or multiple "classes" or uniforms. (Still have no idea what that actually means.) BSA uniform requirements are off the chain - inspection sheets? Really? For 5, 6, 7, 8-year-olds?

    I respect what you are saying, but we will have to agree to disagree.

    Barry

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