Eagledad

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

There is no clean answer.  Finding the right troop is a mix of magic / luck of the draw / luck that you make.  When the magic is right, scouting is great.  I'd look at the whole picture ... drive time ... adventure ... effort to create / setup new troop ... desire of parents to be leaders and setup a new unit, etc.  ... There is no right answer. 

Yes, Fred is right. It depends on the adults and the program and if the program fits you. I did study some of this stuff when I was the District Membership chair. In general, programs are based from the level of passion by the adults who manage the program. That can be good and bad, but in typically the top 15% of the programs managed by the most passionate adults, and have gift for selling the program. You have to visit the unit to see if it is a good fit.

Barry

On 9/21/2025 at 10:14 PM, johnsch322 said:

Why would it have to be a BSA hater? Why couldn't a perpetrator be someone who may have been a long-time scouting member who may be defended the BSA or called what had happened a sign of times and touted that BSA did all the right things? Maybe now they regretted what they had done and expressed remorse by extolling how bad they feel for survivors. Saying a perpetrator would claim to be a victim is just trying to cast bad light on survivors. 

Many of us have been active and have developed reputations on this forum long before this discussion.

Barry

On 9/19/2025 at 7:37 PM, yknot said:

That's a disturbing comment. While not pleasant to think about, it is certainly possible that some of the commentators on this forum over the years probably were involved in some of these cases. It's perhaps good to remember that a tactic of the guilty is to deflect blame elsewhere and weigh comments in that light. 

Hard to tell; there were, and still are, BSA haters on the forum who were glad to push facts and unproven statements to make the BSA look bad.

Barry
 

Parents are the most challenging part of Scoutmastering. National should create a course to prepare for how to respond to them. It takes practice. We had a few families leave because we didn't budge on our program philosophy. One mother took her new tenderfoot son out because I wouldn't delegate him as the Patrol Leader. But we lost several scouts because of our approach to Eagle. And, the parents of the ones who stayed despite their parents' wishes would never speak to me again, even when I ran into them at the grocery store. 

Barry

2 hours ago, Armymutt said:

The acting SM asked me if we should bring a bunch of first aid supplies out to the campout for the Scouts to use to assemble kits.  To me, that's not the Scouts assembling a first aid kit.  That's the Scouts selecting materials from those provided by the adults.  I want to encourage them to actually open the handbook, read through it, think about what cases they might encounter, make a list, and then procure the items.  

This is the normal response from new leaders because their parenting nature is reacting to the situation. Most new leaders have to be retrained in a scout-run program. We approached this in several ways, including having the scout read and use the Scout Handbook. When I taught Scoutmaster Basic back in the day, the two most asked questions were discipline and uniform. My answer to the uniform question was the Scout Handbook. If the scout knows the uniform policy, they also know when they're not following it. They are making a bad choice. Don't hound them about proper uniform; ask them if they made the right choice. But really, it should be the PL who asks. Honestly, I wanted to see how the scouts dressed. Often, it shows a state of mind. Often, it shows a scout struggling at home. 

Another way we got new adults used to the scout run program was by restricting the adults from putting up the scout sign to get the group's attention. Adults rarely need to get the group's attention in a Scout Run program because they are in the background. However, if an adult is being used as a resource to explain a skill and needs to get the group's attention (because they are boring), then the adult asks the nearest youth leader to get the group's attention. Likely, the scout will put up the sign, and the adult will follow in support of the youth leader's direction.

There are other ways to train adults to let scouts make their own decisions, but honestly, it is a matter of mindset or a culture that respects scouts as equals to adults. Adults wouldn't treat other adults as some treat scouts as youth. The faster adults start treating scouts as equals, the faster the culture of trust changes. And the results are amazing. Scouts have to get used to it also; they have been led by adults all their life, so they just can't turn a switch to change. Trust comes from continued actions by both the adults and scouts. Practice. 

Barry

14 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Interesting turn of events tonight.  Our lone Eagle Scout, who is actually actively showing up and participating, came up to me and the acting SM and presented his thoughts on the troop.  He said that he would dissolve the patrols as they are right now and reform them, integrating Scouts of all ages.  He sees that what we have isn't working because there is no one in the patrol to teach the younger Scouts anything.  As he was talking, I started laughing internally.  I pulled up a text thread where I shared an image from the 1941 Handbook for Scoutmasters that described how to do exactly what he proposed.  I think by our next elections in October, the troop will have a different look and feel.  My plan is to use the older Scouts who are not in PL roles as Troop Guides, responsible for helping the PLs ensure their Scouts are advancing and gaining the Scout skills they need to be able to act independently, within the G2SS.  Hopefully, that will motivate them to start leveraging the technology they have available to hold patrol planning meetings outside of troop meetings and reduce the amount of planning taking place at troop meetings.

Well, this is very cool. Our experience with similar situations is that leadership will struggle for a bit until they get their feet under them, which is OK because we humans learn better in our struggles. But, you might team up with your Eagle and monitor the patrols to see if an ad-hoc training session might help in an area where the patrols are struggling. I found that a 15 minute training moment at the PLC meeting can often be an AH HA moment for PLs. 

After reading your post, I smiled at the memories, and I remember why I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

1 hour ago, Tron said:

I've volunteered with troops running all sorts of patrol structures and I least like the fully mixed age patrols at this point. They always seem to devolve into a process where the patrol leaders and troop leadership regardless of ability or likeability become the troop elected leadership and the younger scouts become second class citizens who have to ride the back bench and do their time regardless of capability.

This occurs in units where the youth leaders are not contributing to unit performance. Most of the time the adults are assisting the leadership to the point that they are preventing bad decisions from interfering the activities. 

Ambitious Scouts will rise up into leadership positions in units where the scouts are held accountable for program performance.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

There are references to patrol activities in modern documentation but it is very limited. The focus on leadership over being able to do things for oneself is what is really killing the patrol method. The original purpose state of which BSA is chartered by congress provides no mention of "leadership" training. The program is so overfocused on leadership training, 

Yep. I'm convinced that those at National haven't a clue how to develop young people into ethical and moral decision makers. Has DEI killed the Boy Scouts? Leadership development in scouting is passive form of learning. Good leaders make good role models for good leadership.

The folks at National are reacting the same as the Girls Scouts national leaders when they lost the understanding of how to build character. Like the BSA, they started promising leadership as a virtue of the program. They believe that giving a scout a chance to lead makes them a leader. 

Ironically, I believe that the GSUSA has a better chance of giving a patrol method program now because they don't have boys to dilute their program to make everyone happy. But, like BSA National, they don't know how to implement it.

Barry

,

I saw a discussion on another forum a few weeks ago about a troop at summer camp picking the SPL for summer camp. The troop was split into a boys program and a separate girls program. There was an assumption the troop would have 2 SPLs during the summer camp, but the SM picked only one SPL from the boys troop. I'm sure there was more to this, but you can guess how the discussion went. The SM was assumed to be old-school and out of touch with today's program. Only I stood up for a SM who would use a single leader to for the whole troop.

Because the boys SPL was selected, the forum participants automatically assumed the SM was anti female. And they called him old-school because he refused two SPLs. They could’not, wouldn’t, consider the gender might not have anything to do with the decision. 

It took me years to develop the sales technique for selling parents the BSA patrol method program where their sons came home from camps a different more mature person.  I can't even imagine selling that program to adults who are more concerned about equal gender presentation in a program where the Aims and Methods have nothing to do with gender.

I watched 100s of really wonderful adults grow from our program. The program of scouts learning from the good and bad choices works.

I'm thinking of changing my Scouter.com title to Old_School_SM, and wearing it with pride.

Barry

Hmm, nothing like adults meddling in scouts business. Merit badge requirements are between the scout and the counselor. Also, when adults start talking about shortcuts, they are mentoring shortcuts to the scouts. We must be careful that we don’t teach advancement over adventure.

Sounds like a great campout. I’m jealous.

Barry

I’ve trained many scoutmasters of new troops and my First step advice is put down the SM Handbook and get the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook. Those two handbooks have the same information as SM Handbook without the adult baggage. They are fast reads and basic enough to layout a plan for the next few months of your program. You will find the scouts and adults will bond faster when everyone is working as a team with the same instruction guides.

And get ready, you are embarking on the most confounding and rewarding endeavor of your life.

i love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Not surprised, not a single person in the Pentagon was a member of Scouting America. 
 

Barry

Back in the day, when I was trying to save the world, I sought the commissioners' help in identifying issues that were undermining the program, such as losing over 50% of Webelos before crossover (the National Average). The short story is not just NO, but.....

If the commissioners could visit a unit once every two months to just observe casually what the Dens and patrols are doing, then they could report their observations to the District Commissioner (DC). If the DC identifies a trend, the district can then approach a solution, such as training.

Of course, that approach requires identifying levels of performance and methods for working below minimum performance. If judging unit performance is not expressed correctly, then yes, observing units will appear to be overstepping. I've been there. 

But it can work. One DC friend ran the UC corps successfully in the largest district in Minnesota. He addressed problems quickly and with compassion.

A good UC corps starts with a good DC. In my opinion, the DC is the most critical Key Three position. They require a big-picture understanding of the scouting program and how the units fit in the model. Then, they develop a district program to help unit leaders enhance their unit performance within that model. Most districts take the first person that says yes to the UC position, but more often than not, they aren't qualified. First, the district needs to find someone who is a good recruiter; it's a skill. They will find a qualified UC.

Barry

Well, the program isn’t making it any easier, google “Boy Scouts woke” and there is very little positive responses from all sides of the spectrum. The program is caught on a cultural yoyo that makes it difficult for anyone to discuss. 
 

My wife and I travel internationally quite a bit and I often find myself bragging about the benefits of scouting I observed from my experience. I have found folks of all backgrounds and nationalities are intrigued with the scout program and want something like it for their community. I don’t step into the resent changes because I don’t want to turn the discussion political. I like to leave it positive.

Barry

On 1/19/2025 at 1:21 PM, curious_scouter said:

.  Remember too, SM Conferences do not have to be last.  If they are 1-2 simple requirements away from "being done and needing one" - just do it now if it's convenient.  Save the pressure that comes from leaving it last.  Many thing it has to be the last thing.  It's not a bad idea to encourage that and use the SM conf as a chance to make sure all looks square just before a board of review but you can do a SM conference ANY time for a rank.  And I always sign off the requirement the moment I sit down to do it with the Scout.  The requirement does not say "pass" a conference - it says "have" a conference.  So I just check the book, sign off the conf, then focus on them for the duration.  Takes the stress and anticipation of getting that initial out of the equation too and lets them engage better as well.

 

Great post, thanks.

i used to teach the same approach. I believe the SM should have a feel for how a scout is doing before they are ready for the BOR. Like courious scouter, I may have signed off his SMC long before he completed the other requirements. For me, scouting is about personal growth. Some scouts have grown a lot, but they are in no hurry for advancement and that’s fine with me. I tend to have a good feel for simply by finding opportunities to have a quick chat asking how it was going. We might have something in common and I would bring that up or ask how a new patrol mate is dong. You can learn a lot about scouts at a SM  conference, but few small chats tells you pretty much what you need to know. You can sign their book if they have it, or during a conference they request and use that opportunity to brag about them. 

Our CC told me of one scout during his BOR who didn’t remember having a SM  conference with me after lunch earlier that day. When she reminded him of our chat while I bought him an ice cream bar, he was surprised to learn that was a SM conference. He just asked me how baseball was going. Any excuse to have an enjoyable chat with a scout. 

If I knew a scout was having a challenge with the scouting experience, I would try to get them to discuss it, and then I might ask if they felt they were ready for the advancement. Sometimes they would say no and set a goal to prove themselves. Even better when they want to grow.

The sign off is important, but if it’s also fun, I can say 25 years later, it’s memorable.

Barry

11 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I love your philosophy. So many make it super serious and hard to achieve some crazy unarticulated vision of the course director. 

Thank you kindly. It’s a simple philosophy that everyone should go home feeling good about their scouting experience.

Barry

It's really up to the Course Leader. I approved several leaders working together.

I wanted the leaders to grow in the area they would be working. I am not sure why you wanted to work with Cubs if your mainly working for scouts. But, I would have been open minded. I did help adult shift their thinking of what they were going to do for the units. You would be amazed at how many adults aren't given expectations for helping their unit. A lot of units are running like well oil machines, so they aren't looking specific volunteers. I often worked with them on tickets to learn how patrol method worked and how adults should work in that format. They really enjoyed it. 

On troop leader had was very limited with his volunteering time time. He was a CEO and spent a lot of time working with teams for development. We came to the conclusion that he would work great on the district committee in planning with his limited time. So we designed his tickets toward working with the committee. There is no doubt he would be running the Committee in a year or two. He had rare skills that every district would want. 

So really the answer the expectation Tickets depends on the WB team. They are all different.

Barry 

I asked because I believe when done correctly, the ticket experience has the most impact for the participants. I agree tickets can get out of control and add very little growth to the scouter’s scouting career.

I also was given ticket items approval responsibility and was able to counsel participants and TGs to simpler Ticket Items that enhanced their volunteer experience more directly. I was glad to help and counsel any participant who felt stress with their tickets. The experience really should be fun and something that add excitement. Many folks aren’t creative and struggle with Ticket Items, so I had enjoyable discussions with them to learn about their goals for scouting and then we discussed simple ideas for growing towards their goals.

One new SM was struggling with his role for PLC meetings, so he created a ticket item to visit and observe PLC meetings of 5 other troops. One CM  was also the Webelos leader and Tiger leader. So we created a Ticket item to recruit a Tiger and Webelos leader so she could focus on what she wanted to do, Cubmaster. I know sounds obvious to many that she should have done that in the first place, but things often happen that complicate our lives in such a way we done see it happening. Then suddenly we are overwhelmed and the fun is gone. When the fun is gone, scouts suffer the most. Most scouts leave because of boredom.

Many districts use WB ticket items to source event leaders like camporees, which often lead to inexperienced adults planning complicated events that give scouts a terrible experience. I didn’t approve any event planning unless the participants could prove they had previous successful experience, and it would be a fun growing experience for their future scouting career.

Scouting is supposed to be fun and the WB ticket items experience should be a highlight of growing as a Scout Leader.

I had motto for both the scouts and adults; If it’s not fun, change it.

Barry

9 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Exactly! Adding to my satisfaction is that two of my fellow leaders went at the same time, so now we're working on improving how our unit runs at the same time. By the time our tickets are finished, we will have significantly improved operational efficiency and have incorporated all the new adventure requirements into the operations in a scalable, repeatable way.

And now when we need something, we have contacts at council as well as other units. Much better situation to be volunteering from.

What are your Ticket Items?

Barry

On 12/23/2024 at 1:46 AM, DuctTape said:

Pick up a copy of the PL Handbook from the 1950s for ideas of Patrol Activities, games, etc... Also a 1940s Fieldbook, it is organized to be basically a manual of patrol activities. These will be a good resource for you if the SPL asks for ideas of "how to..."

Any SPL handbook works, too. In fact, I required all the SMs in my Scoutmaster Specific class to have one to use with the PLC for coordinating expectations. A team should work from the same book. Think of it as a condensed version of an SM Handbook.

Barry

I’m am a mixed age patrol guy. I’ve tried them all and the fastest scout growth occurs in patrols with older aged and experienced mentor role models. But, building patrols is not easy. It takes experience. I agree to a point that the scouts have to be involved. But, if the adults (role model, mentors) struggle, the scouts certainly will. Don’t throw them in dark without some kind of guidance and plan.

Work as a team with everyone understanding the goal as well as the challenges. Make the successes and failures a team responsibility so that both scouts and adults work the problem together. I promise the scouts take these things to heart and will work to fix challenges the next time. They don’t like it any more than adults. And you will be amazed how seriously they do these things as the troop learns and grows when they know that the adults have their back.

This subject is an example that scouting is hard and the more the adults and scouts work as a team, the more confident everyone feels trying new ideas to improve the experience. Scouting is a safe place because failure is an opportunity to grow. That goes as much for the adults as it does for the scouts. 

Another deep discussion is news scouts and how to get them merged in the troop. But, that is a different subject for another day.

Merry Christmas everyone. 

Barry 

6 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Respectfully, I feel like that enough parents with average skills could still put on a good program. The biggest problems occur when a small number of average leaders are over-burdened by a high number of drop-off parents and/or poorly behaved kids.

 

I understand what you are saying, but my experience with adults is that less is more. Adults tend to hinder the scouts' growth in character because, by their nature, adults don't like youth making bad decisions. 

I'm not sure what you consider average skills. Are knots, lashings, and orienteering average skills you're speaking about?

Still, the troop program is designed so that scouts lead and manage their activities. That program doesn't require many adults. 

Of course, scouts have to continually grow to develop the skills for dealing with the responsibilities of running the program and their personal growth.

A mature program requires a minimum number of adults because the scouts are responsible for the program's activities and business, including training.

The challenge for units is having a resource pool of skilled experts to prevent stumping scout growth. 

Barry

10 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

As you point out, many now have no outdoors/Scouting experience... so to whom are they to delegate?

Yes, my delegating comment was for the program 25 or 30 years ago when there were still many experienced Scouters. My point about the adults in today's scouts program is a different situation. I'm pretty creative when looking for solutions, but this one is a challenge.

The program now, whatever it's called (part of the problem), needs big changes in identity and training.

Barry