Eagledad

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

Mastering preparedness is its own kind of fun. But, that’s still an inward-facing answer to “why scouts.” If we want someone to sponsor a troop over many decades, that sponsor needs to know that what it’s doing is bigger than the sum of its parts.

I believe one of a DE's main responsibilities should be teaching sponsors "how" what they are doing is bigger than the sum of the parts. Truth of the matter is that from the outside, the parts (mastering preparedness) can look quite messy and unappealing. 

Barry

As the COR, you have the authority to do what ever is best for the CO. Actually, you are just a representative of the authority of the CO, but 95 % of the time, the authority gives you all the decision rights, especially when you are this involved.

The real issue is the personal conflict. And I know it may not seem personal to you, but if the troop feels they need him and you don't, and you want to change his responsibilities, then it is personal. This really comes under "Can't Everyone Just Get Along?". Many of us here would call this a coffee moment, which mainly is a friendly conversation over coffee (and cookies, I really like cookies), where the two of you can discuss a solution. In reality, you have the authority as the COR to lay down the law. But, in the Friendly, Courteous, Kind way, you're two equals trying to come to a solution. Maybe he needs more training. Or an assistant. 

You can also consider inviting a 3rd person to keep the discussion humble like the District Commissioner or someone you know to be fair a level headed. 

Now I do understand that we here on the forum don't know ether of you and have to trust that you are being accurate with the situation. But, if the situation and personalities are as you say in your brief post, then in reality, and in the big picture of unit problems, your issue is very small. If you can get around the personalities problem, I think you will find a simple solution. 

One last thing, when I trained unit adults, I suggested finding a CC who had the experience for the responsibilities because the CC is suppose to tells the COR what the unit needs and wants to work toward the COs goals. The reality is the CC should be dealing with this issue, and since they are not, something isn't quite right with how the unit should be doing things. That is not to say your CC isn't weak, many are and that brings it's own problems. But, if I were the SE of your council, I would be looking at why the troop committee is not functioning correctly. And you should be doing the same. Your responsibility is to bring in leaders who can do their responsibilities, which includes dealing with these issues like this. You should be the last attempt to fixing a problem. IF it is not an issue with them, then something is a miss, and you need to step back and figure that out.

Take that first step and have that cup of coffee. And the cookies, don't forget the cookies.

Barry

1 hour ago, nolesrule said:

Not claiming more knowledge. Claiming more experiences with differences and how differences are treated. People with experience being different tend to have more consideration for those who are different from them. It's just the way the world works, and it's because experience informs your how you think about things which informs your behavior.

That's not to say people who aren't in minorities don't, but it's certainly less likely. I see evidence of it all the time.

We could also talk about some of the negativity that came with girls being allowed in Scouts BSA, and we still see 4 years later. My daughter has experienced some of that. As @KublaiKen rightfully points out, inclusion means more than just allowing membership.

My daughter is also left handed, and we live in a very right-handed oriented world that people who are right handed don't seem to understand.

Is that a better example? Because it's just as applicable to the conversation but for some reason because it's not about race or religion or gender it's more palatable.

Interesting post. I agree with the first paragraph, but based from my experiences, have a different opinions on the rest. I guess different experiences lead to different biases.

Barry

One summer we did Cubmobiles races. Along with the other activities during a pack summer camp, each den had to assemble and paint their Cub mobile. They got to race them the last day of the week. The pack raced those cubmobiles for the next 15 years. The DE was so impressed with them that he asked our pack help him plan and run a district Cubmobile race. The district planned a district race each spring for 10 years. Google Cubmobiles to get an idea of their fun.

Barry

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

I'm not sure how other Troops handle this but we make it clear that nothing is official until we hear from National.  We do not have anyone wear the patch until we have the kit from National.  

Now, in all my years, I haven't had a case where National rejected the Eagle app but it can happen.

I have seen it, and generally it was a screw up on the Council  getting dates wrong. Probably doesn't happen very often now with everything recorded electronically, but 20 years ago we asked Council for a copy of all the scout's records and found they got some of the records wrong on 30% of our scouts. Most of the mistakes were not a big deal, but once in a while the got the rank dates wrong. 

Barry

52 minutes ago, Delphinus said:

Yikes! Why are the fees, particularly the Council fee, skyrocketing so much!? What added value are the Scouts and their families getting for that tremendous increase. All the Pack and Den leaders, the adult volunteers who actually do all of the work, are UNPAID. Where is all that extra money going? If they do that here, we'll probably drop out. We can easily afford it, but when I do a cost/benefit analysis, the value just isn't there to justify paying that much more. Our son has plenty of other extracurricular activities (sports, bowling, he's start Civil Air Patrol next year when he turns 12, etc...) that we don't need this program if they're going to try gouging us that much. I won't pay it just on principle. We're already seriously considering dropping out once he earns is AOL next month anyway, just because of some of the poor behavior and mistreatment from some of the Cub Scout adult leaders we've experienced the last several months.  

I can't argue the fees, that is the result of the ongoing litigation. But, don't let bad adult leaders tant your opinion about the troops. The experience is typically different. Cub leaders can new and inexperienced with scouting and more often than I would like to see, they set bad examples. Troop leaders in most cases are more experienced and settled into the program. At least give them a chance. Camping and patrol experiences are fun. The Civil Air Patrol is pretty cool too. 

Barry

1 hour ago, cmd said:

but it would be nice if it weren't the SAME ypt every year.  Maybe have a long initial one with shorter refreshers annually? Then do the full one again the next time it's updated. 

Great idea. Or start with a precourse test to check your knowledge. 70% rewards you by skipping the course.

Barry

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Then National doubled down with Lions right?

No, 2000 was when they required parents attend and have meetings every week. Lions was somewhere around 15 years later when National was also adding other clueless program modifications like adding Leadership as a 4th Method when it was already part of the 8 Aims.

Barry

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

You just hit on the solution. BSA’s liability (past and future) is a very large fixed cost. Lower membership equals higher cost per member. Increase membership, and costs will lower. However, the training mandates have drastically driven down adult membership.

National change the Tiger program in 2020 to require each scout have an attending parent with them at every activity. Up to that point, Tiger membership dropouts was bad, I think around 50% nationally, give or take. I don’t know what National was thinking, but requiring a parent at every activity made the problem worse.

Parents of 1st grade parents are bombarded with after school activities and it overwhelms them. They only have so much time in a day to work, cook, and be family. Those parents need a very easy program that fits the schedule and gives them an introduction to scouting. 

The real problem was forcing toddler age scouts to weekly meetings that wasn’t worth the time of Tiger families. Our pack experimented with different approaches and found one den meeting a month and an optional Pack meeting was satisfactory. Our Tiger membership dropout rate went from 30 % to 3%. Of course we did a few other things to make Tigers easier for the parents as well, but the fewer meetings made the program more appealing during recruitment.

Who knows what the folks at National were thinking when they come up with these changes, but they sure weren’t talking to the parents. I sent letters to National of our success with Tigers along with the other issues that Tigers still presences to the larger program. And yet, program changes go in the opposite direction. Two packs in our district dropped Tigers all together and didn’t drop in membership.

We found that the Tigers program required double the adults of the rest of the pack to have a successful Tiger program. Dropping Tigers was a nobrainer to save from burnout. 

There is a very simple approach we used to fix the problems the published program created. Ask the parents what they wanted and give it to them. The simple fact is that when the parents leave the program, they take their kids with them.

Barry

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I have heard recently that there are changes coming to the Cub Scout program.  I'll hold back the specifics for now, but I am curious as to what changes you would like to see.  It sounds like changes are in the advanced planning stage and are pending the closure of bankruptcy (hopefully March).  If you were running Cub Scouts, what would you do?

 

Shorten the program 2 years to prevent burnout. That one change would double the crossovers into the troops.

Barry

43 minutes ago, JSL3300 said:

My husband and I lead the Cub Scout pack that both of my boys were in prior to last year, when our oldest took the leap into Scouts BSA. The unit he chose is small and the SM and ASM are both older guys with no kids in the program. The older scouts were not overly welcoming and one of the boys that crossed with mine dropped after a couple of months because he felt bullied. 

We had a transparent conversation with one of the families from our pack that also picked that troop to cross into. We both revealed that we felt incredibly uncomfortable sending our boys into the woods with these men and older scouts. Because we all four led at the pack level, we already had YPT and what we decided is that one of the four of us will go on every campout until we felt comfortable letting them go solo. We didn't express exactly why we were doing this, but the SM and ASM have been completely fine with it and always check in to see if we're coming. 

I don't think it should be a policy that people without children in scouts can't go camping, but I do think it should be made obvious to parents that if they want to take YPT and camp with the troop that they are welcome. I don't think it's overprotective to be wary of a group that has had years and years of this type of history. 

This solution is an example of why leaders without is not a national issue. Most of the time, the unit will find a solution.

Also, intimidation from older is a more common problem. I knew of several troops with the intimidating older scouts. Leaders learn quickly that they better fix it or loose recruits.

Barry

Strange discussion. But, if forums do nothing else, they bring out extreme opinions. Over the years folks expressed extreme thoughts like, scouting was dying from lack of gay  adult leaders, then it was lack of gay youths, then it was female youths, and then to much god or not enough god or not enough camping, or too much camping and so on.

A few extreme opinions doesn’t mean reality. But it does drive interesting discussions. I don’t believe millennial mothers are the pivot point of BSAs success or failure. Helicopter parents are a real problem, but only locally.

I also don’t believe the few mothers who are afraid are anymore sexist than those of us who resisted bringing girls into the program because male scouts would be at a disadvantage for growth. 

interesting I had a discussion with a grandmother last week who is now anti BSA because of admitting girls. She believes scouts are safe on campouts, but she also believes boys are different from girls and need a different scouting experience.

Is grandma sexist? I don’t think so, she is experienced with life. But, I expect young parents on the front side of life may not relate.

As someone who has developed a lot of BSA membership trend data over the years, I consider myself somewhat an expert on future trends. I believe Covid has done more to upset the future of the BSA than gays, girls, god, and sexual harassment. Covid took the cruise control out of program and forced leaders to become more creative and active, or not.

I believe the future is going to be very dependent on just plain survival. Survival will depend on the passion of volunteers wanting a program so much that they will have to think out-of-box to keep their program growing. They won’t get help from the giant anchor of National. And they will have to contend with the juggernaut of the Cub program, which is a serious adult killer burning out leaders.

The troop program is easier to manage, but it does rely heavily on the scraps the Cub program leaves them for crossovers. But, the real issue with the troop program is that the majority of volunteers never had a youth scouting experience. That was a coming problem before Covid, but now their is less to temper its problems.

Adult are instinctively competitive. It’s a survival thing. The instinct of Scouts however, is games and adventure. Adventure and games develop the mind and body to be ready for competitive adult survival when the youth cross over into adulthood at about 14 years of age.

My point is if the adults don’t know how to have fun, they tend to drive the program toward less fun drive towards developing stature. Advancement and leadership will replace adventure and games. I see the future of the troop program becoming more of an after school club for pre teenagers.

So, lots to wonder and worry about. But, it will be the passionate adults who will drive the trends of the future program. Where are we going, I have no idea. But we need to fasten our seatbelts because it’s going to be a wild ride.

Barry

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

The bitter truth: it now rests squarely on the young women who've benefited from the program to promote it. If they conclude that they would have been better off with 100% of their time spent in GS/USA, their BSA4G troop will rightfully lose its foothold in the community.

I agree with qwazse, but I wonder how much of the enthusiasm was generated by passionate adults. I didn't get a comfortable feeling about the youth level of enthusiasm from this form. Of course this is an adult forum, but some of the adults seemed hell-bent and creating success stories. However, the Venturing Crews program does have some success with active girls.

Barry

2 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Hi Barry... The next few years will determine the future of the program. There are literally millions of additional youth available to recruit today than in the mid 70's when our membership peaked plus we now can recruit girls at all levels and Cubs starts at grade k instead of grade 3. Parents are starting to realize that all the computer/internet time is taking away many of the experiences that they held dear. Playing outdoors, camping, being involved in a youth program, growing socially, physically, and morally/ethically. Today, college professors worry that their students term papers will be written by artificial intelligence. Kids bully other kids on social media, and on line predators stalk children on online game sites and friend them on their Facebook pages or invite them to chat rooms. There are so many more issues that face families and kids today and while Scouting can't solve all of them, Scouting can help. As the parent of an Eagle Scout I expect that you are well aware. Few things are more powerful than 'shared vision'. We need to share the opportunities and possibilities that Scouting brings to kids, parents, whole families. Thanks for your comments. 

 

Yes, many challenges. A big one ate the unprofessional professionals at National. My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program.

Barry

After many years of observing BSA units, I find that economics and ignorance are big drivers of unit procedures because few adults understand the BSA vision enough to keep their program compass pointed north. Adults will get what they want one way or another. Council would only step in when they see a liability risk. The next few years will be interesting.

Barry

10 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I heard this rumor too, but could not substantiate it.  

Doesn’t make sense.

Barry

5 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

This is not true.  OA is struggling for many other reasons.  One is council mergers.  OA meetings prior to our council merger were a 30 min round trip away.  Now they are 1 hr and 45 mins.  OA ordeal used to occur at our council summer camp.  Our council no longer has a summer camp.  Service was at a local camp (35 mins away).  That camp has been sold and service is now not linked to camps.  

Yes, AIA is one aspect that should be discussed, but changing that won't mean OA has solved it's long term role or relevence.  In fact, removing AIA without lodge involvement could kill OA.

I agree with this post. A council in southern Oklahoma merged with the Central Oklahoma council in the early 90s. The southern Council's OA program was considered the hallmark of OA programs in all of Oklahoma while the Central Council's program struggled. The merge required OA members of the southern council drive 90 minutes to meetings in central Oklahoma. The southern OA struggles to survive now.

Barry

The BSA is the adults program with a vision of developing the youth into moral and ethical decision makers. Most here who know me know I am very pro youth run. But, I cringe when I here leave it up to the youth. While the main principal of the program is scouts developing character from their free choices, the program has guidelines that the units must work within. That doesn’t mean the scouts can’t be a part of making the decisions, it means they should be part of the team with adults who have experience and wisdom that they can contribute to discussion to provide more content. The point of the discussion shouldn’t letting the scouts choose, the discussion is how to discuss the complexities as a team and work toward solutions as a team. It won’t be easy, but the questions aren’t easy either.

Barry

2 minutes ago, satl8 said:

With the new Polestar process, election/selection results are to be announced immediately.

 

The way it was explained to me at NOAC, it is no different than a Scout sitting on their BOR and not being told for months whether they passed or not.

With the new Polestar process, election/selection results are to be announced immediately.

 

The way it was explained to me at NOAC, it is no different than a Scout sitting on their BOR and not being told for months whether they passed or not.

Tap out was always one of the fun parts of the process that scouts looked forward to. Especially at summer camp in front of hundreds of observers. 

Saying that, the Ordeal is where the scout finds out if he/she are ready and mature enough to be an Arrowmen. Rather that is how it used to be.

Barry

2 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

To me, if you simply concede ground then you are letting the Order become the very thing you don't want. My son certainly had some opinions, and still does, on some of the youth that were in the Lodge with him. He's rolled his eyes a few times on who was elected as officers or for Vigil. But, he considered it to be motivation to do better himself. Part of the outside motivation for him was his former SM who very much was a "poo poo on the OA and everything else to do with Council" individual who also never was willing to take any constructive feedback from my son as SPL or any other previous SPL about their troop. The SM thought he had it all figured out, and the problem was never with him but everyone else. I don't disagree with your POV on a problem we face, just that the SM on the other side that is just bumping their youth through likely feels they are doing everything right, it's everyone else that is the problem. If we can't ever sit at a table and discuss things, or just aren't willing to even show up at the table, then we reap what we sow. 

I’m not sure my post applies to your experience. I’m saying just because a culture decided to be offended by the innocent and respectful actions of an organization does not make the actions any less innocent and respectful and should be treated with the respect of their intentions.

As for your sons experience, I turned down the district recruiting committees offer to take over as the chapter advisor because I didn’t want to deal with the Scoutmasters. I come from a time when Arrowmen were the special forces of scouting. I would have drove the chapter in that direction and I knew I would meet a lot of resistance.

Barry

Thank you for the wonderful post, mrjohns2.

Barry

10 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

MattR:

Our all-girl troop meets twice a month on Saturday mornings from 10 to Noon.  The PLC meets immediately before every other meeting.  The attention span of girls this age allows us to cover the program, in addition to our monthly campouts.  The remaining “free” Saturday each month is often when optional service projects, hikes and other activities take place.

You keep say “the attention span of girls” as if girls are different. What are you comparing against. I’m not confronting you, I’m just curious how you came to that conclusion.

Barry

21 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not even going to try to explain the Psychology of introverts.....  Would be futile.

My apologies for replying so late. I don't think an explanation would be futile. In fact, stories of how to deal with introverts can help other scout leaders in the forum. Introverts can have anxiety from any personal communication with strangers or even known acquaintances if the subject subject mater is challenging. And challenging can even mean something positive like a boss asking the introvert to come to their office to present them with a raise. Introverts struggle with making choices of meeting people to knowingly advance their personal situation, or to not meet that person to ease the anxiety of the meeting.

I have worked with many scouts with introvert tendencies, some very severe. I have lots of great bragging success stories of these scouts. I believe scouting to be a wonderful program for these scouts because they are introduce into a team atmosphere where they learn to develop trust in the members of their team and contribute to a common goal. But, the key to scouts with introvert characteristics is to start them on the team, but in a minimum expectations. I had one scout terrified to have an acting role in front of the group. I learned this when he was asked to present the colors on a campout. No problem, we instead moved him with the scouts who presented the colors without any expected actions. Two years later he was leading ceremonies..

There is more, but that is the basic idea. But, I agree whole heartedly with Sentinel947 that participating with the patrol in songs and skits is a HUGE team building tool. They were in fact the very tools used for our Webelos program to get scouts ready for the troop program. And one doesn't have to be a great singer, or even sing at all. They can participate by leading the group or holding props. The main thing is being part of the team.

A mother of a severe introvert in our troop sent a letter to the Council SE explaining how their son was so shy and introverted that even his teachers were making fun of him. In fact, they sued the school over it. In her letter, she explained that the troop was only place where he felt safe to be himself because all his patrol mates accepted him for who he was. He eventually matured to be a Patrol Leader. She couldn't enough about the scout program. Last I heard, that scout was an officer on a nuclear submarine.

As I said, I can't think of a better youth program that helps youth develop the courage, confidence and habits for fitting in society. A troop is cultural experience at a youth size.

Hope that helps.

Barry