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Eagledad

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Posts posted by Eagledad

  1. On 7/6/2022 at 6:28 AM, DuctTape said:

    I agree the SM (and all adults) should have the mindset and character necessary to serve the scouts. In addition to the focused vision of the SM, the "how tos" using the patrol method, motto, oath, etc... must be shared and understood by the rest of the Scouters especially the ASMs. Communicating to the Committee the "how tos", their alignment to the vision and the direct line linking the methods to the aims will not just help the committee to understand but also facilitate the SMs work. The necessary (thin yet unbreakable) thread within all of this is as you alluded to with the servant leadership,  Adult Association as a method. The scouts need to see, witness, and experience first hand the adults demonstrating the highest level of leadership, communication, patrol method, character, etc... The Scouters should be hyper-focused on being  exemplars whom the scouts WILL emulate.

    Perhaps we can use this thread to impart some specific examples of "how tos" , their connection to a vision and use of the patrol method to maximize SM effectiveness?

    I think the how tos will be a little different for each troop because the personalities of adults. Adults must agree on the vision so that everyone buys in to it. Or, at least, they are willing to accept it as the course direction. I found that most adults don't really  care about a vision so long as the Scoutmaster seems to have a grasp of where the troop is going. In my case, I lead a Troop meeting twice a year after each SPL election that required all the scouts and their parents to attend. I spent the first 20 minutes explaining Aims, Methods, Patrol Method (we call it boy run), and our troop vision. While I have passion for those subjects and could discuss them all day, I found 20 minutes was about all that could hold their focus. We also discussed the structure of the troop from CO down to the new scout's parents. That is how I tried to keep everyone at least understanding why I drove the program the direction it was going.

    From the scouts perspective, they didn't really care about the 3 Aims (citizenship, character, and fitness), except that they planned and activity to practice each at campout. They, however, did understand the 8 Methods because each patrol leader had to set a goal for each method. Most were simple. But, the real point of all that is the scouts learned that the adults were not responsible for the 8 Methods other than the program had to use all eight methods, and the adults were responsible for the 3 Aims. The scouts knew my vision for them, in simple terms, was character development, we also had the vision of scout leadership and adventure as visions.

    But, what I kept saying, without calling it a vision, is the program was going toward a troop that if the adults didn't show up, the meeting and activities would go on as it was planned. The scouts had to take total ownership for that to happen and that was the real vision we were striving toward while I was SM.

    What I learned over the years is that the real goal for the adults is to develop a culture in the troop that the scouts use as their community. I also found that to be a real challenge for most troops and they never reach a culture where they felt comfortable letting the scouts run the whole program. The reason is that the adults have to be fluid with the program and change their adult roles as the scouts mature. I generally guided the SPL to act more SM like on campouts if they had the skills and maturity of an experienced older scout. I wanted them to keep growing.

    We had a discussion on this forum about troop maturity a few years ago and those of us who had experience that kind of maturity agreed that 5 years is about the length of time to reach it. As I siad, the real problem is being humble enough to change and give the scouts more responsibilities as they matured with their skills. A troop that does that eventually ends up with the scouts running the program and the adults watching or just sitting at the fire.

    So, "how tos": No adults allowed in PLC meetings unless they get permission from the SPL. That includes the SM. I was never refuse permission., Adults never stood in front, or even near, youth leaders unless they were asked to be there by the scouts. Adults never put up the Scout sign before scouts to get the groups attention. If the adult needed to calm or quiet the group like providing information at troop meeting, the adult simply asked the scout near them to get the groups attention. Easy once the adults get in the habit and it really reinforces 

    Other things I did was I alway put a box of Tootsie Roll Pops in the middle of camp under the stipulation that scouts can have as many as they want provide they take only one at a time and they don't leave trash. If the SPL, or any scout, found trash, they box was taken away. I also carried a pocket full of Fireballs cinnamon candy and handed them out when I saw a scout do a good dead. I was often presently surprised of how most of the scouts accepted the gift humbly. They didn't think what they did was special or stood out. I also brought a cooler full of soft drinks on campouts for the PLC to drink each night during their meetings. The PLC worked hard and I wanted to show my appreciation. Our PLC usual meetings where before each troop meeting, so I often brought them pizza. 

    Barry

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  2. Hi All. I heard a lecture that put all my experiences and wisdom from scouting in a nutshell. This isn't a thread on god, or God, and scouting. This is about the scoutmaster setting the example of servant leadership by being a servant leader.

    Our definition of Servant Leadership here is Servant leadership is a leadership philosophy built on the belief that the most effective leaders strive to serve others. It's an easy leadership style to understand, but much harder to do because servant leadership requires the humility to learn the desires and needs of the followers, and then serve them toward those needs and desires. Christians have the example of Jesus preaching that the one who seeks the most must serve the least.

    The  problem with leaders these days is most don't serve with humility and they don't have a consistent vision to agree on. We have often discussed here that scouts learn by watching, not by hearing. For a youth to change their philosophy of behavior, they must observe the behavior and believe it is one worth duplicating. Humans of the scout age don't permanently choose to change a behavior from intimidations or lectures. They must accept the behavior is better than the one they have.

    One of the biggest obstacles troops struggle to over come is developing a culture where the scouts trust and respect the adults enough to believe their behavior is worth watching and duplicating. That respect takes time and requires a lot of effort of humility from the adults. But, if the adults behavior is consistent and they provide unselfish reasons for the direction of the troop activities, they will buy into it because their choices in the activities generally make them like themselves better in those activities. That may sound selfish, but the prepubescent mind is paranoid of danger, so changing behaviors requires changing to watch what they feel is a safer behavior. Which is one reason why threats of punishment or sway of lecture generally doesn't have much affect on personal growth. Scouts need to watch safe-decision-making behavior to desire it. 

    As for giving scouts a direction to develop their activities, I found, through my years working with Scoutmasters, that very few of them have vision. And without vision, the Scoutmaster doesn't have a rudder to hold course. That is OK, the program can still be fun and rewarding, just not a life changing experience. Scouts in successful scout-run type troops generally observe two visions from the adults, specifically the SM. They  see a belief in a higher spiritual power, and moral direction for behavior. It's not that scouts are looking for a godly person to lead, they are just respecting a leader who doesn't believe they are the supreme authority. How is this person any better than any other adult?

    The main reason god is mentioned in Scouting in general as a moral action for scouts is that god is the highest authority and gives unit leaders more power to encourage a moral changing program. Kind of a Good Cop Bad Cop relationship. God sets the rules, the SM just guides the program with them. The traits in the Scout Law are the righteous actions of Scout. They are not the opinions of just another blow-hard adult. All actions by anyone in the unit can be held accountable by god. If not the units leaders, then the family. A scout is supposed to learn how to judged their personal decisions toward others with the Scout Law. So, the Scoutmaster who credits (in words or actions) a higher moral authority for their application of the Scout law is showing submission to the higher authority. Servant Leadership starts at the very top. 

    Also, the cultural vision sets the direction of the program activities for all the scouts. That doesn't mean the Scoutmaster lectures the vision over and over. The Scoutmaster consistently judges the actions and activities of the program and relates a tone of direction. And, Scoutmaster's behavior goes far with setting the tone. I had a little time on a campout and walked over to watch the scouts play Capture The Flag. I was in the shadows, so they couldn't see me. When a new scout on his first campout started cursing, a senior scout said, without an interruption to his actions in the game, "we don't cuss here." As far as I knew, we never talked about cussing in the troop. When I asked about it with my son, he said nobody cusses in the troop publicly dad. School yes, but not here." The leader is the gatekeeper of the moral actions of the community. Good or bad, the actions of the community come from the top. Whether the vision is freedom to make choices or a strict environment of rules and guidelines, it generally comes from the leader. In this discussion, the Scoutmaster. And he was right, we adults didn't cuss. And that culture bled into the scouts culture. It was a profound moment for me.

    When I was the district Scoutmaster course instructor, I also invited Troop Committee Chairs because I wanted them to understand what the patrol method program was, and I instructed them to take responsibility for picking the right Scoutmaster. Or maybe righteous Scoutmaster. A leader with vision and humility of the higher power makes all the difference in the world.

    Well, I have rambled enough. I am hoping for some  discussion because the subject of Scoutmaster servant leadership can be complicated. We don't seem to have a lot of experienced guidance lately on this forum, although there are few here with really good wisdom. The forum has been dominated by the nonprogram struggles from outside interference and forum membership has dwindled. Maybe the scouters in the trenches can change that trend. If scouting is to keep going, the wisdom of experience would go a long way helping the present and future adults run a great program. 

    I love this scouting stuff. 

    Barry

  3. 4 hours ago, clivusmultrum said:

    This year we got the band back together. The older Scouts joined in at summer camp. It was just a few of the older Scouts but it was enough to make a difference. The SPL did SPL stuff. The Patrol was a composite of two patrols but it was a Patrol.  Young Scouts had a chance to interact with older Scouts and see what it looks like. We had just enough adult presence to be seen and not heard.  I have never been more optimistic about this Troop’s prospects. 

    Well done. When I was the district SM Specific course trainer, I preached for units to stop splitting their troop for the summer camp experience. Summer camp is the best and safest place for youth to practice independent decision making and pump up their patrol method development. We averaged almost 100 scouts (95%) at summer camp because they  enjoy the experience so much. We typically put the adults in a separate camp site to reinforce the scouts independence. The SPL is the hardest working person in the troop because has all the decision making responsibilities. The only decisions the adult make are the one that require an adult signature. We pay the SPLs camp fees. 

    You’re going the right direction and your scouts will appreciate it.

    Barry

    • Upvote 4
  4. 1 hour ago, qwazse said:

    Not necessarily. It may not be an actionable offense. (Most bullying is not.) Since the scout has been given scant information, we don’t know which authorities have been informed. Although we’d expect them to interview the scout by now, sometimes they do not.

    Moreover, it may be a false report. In which case the accuser could be in very deep trouble were this taken to the authorities. Even if it is not taken to the authorities, this could be a very difficult time for the accuser if her claim cannot be verified.

    @scoutlaw74, if your scout is a victim of a false report, he may need counseling in a few months. Vindication is not always enough to overcome the trauma of false accusation.

    We live in strange times. Seems that false accusations is becoming a common method of acting out at other people. My high school teacher son says the schools deal with it almost daily. And while many of the accusations are are obviously untrue at the time they are reported, they have to be investigate to show no bias. Forum moderators even have to deal with some of this stuff. 

    Barry

  5. 2 hours ago, Bouv said:

    Hi everyone,

     

    New to the forums, I'm an Eagle Scout and Den Leader for my oldest boys' Den (just moved into Webelos).  My middle is moving on to Tigers as well in the fall so I've been his adult partner for Lions and will be for Tigers.  And who knows, maybe my daughter will join when she gets old enough (she's jealous her brothers get to do stuff!). 

    Welcome, and have a great time. Take it easy though, cubs is 5 years long and tends to burn out even the best Eagles. I know of two active Eagle cub leaders that started with the vision of becoming a scoutmaster only to bow out from burnout at their sons crossover. Pace yourself because we need experienced adult leaders in the Troops.

    Barry

  6. 10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Folks,

    As most of you know, I have been around a long time, and have served in a variety of volunteer and professional roles. As an OA chapter advisor, I have organized day and weekend trips. I have assisted in organizing and supervising my pack and troops in activities over the years. So this is not my first rodeo in Scouting.

    But since I took over as SM, almost every weekend trip, I have been anxious and nervous. Are my Scouts going to have fun? Are they ready for the weekend? Will they be any problems? Is this anxiety  normal for all new SMs?

    For example, back in January I was worried some of the Scouts would not have the proper cold weather and rain gear. Yep, some didn't and lucky for them I brought some extra stuff. When we were staffing an event, I was nervous about them running an event that they have run in the past and knew hand s down. For camporee,  I was worried that they were not prepared for all the events, and focused on the mantra "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" The did excellent. We went backpacking, and I was worried about their preparedness and if things happened. And while things did happen: storm, hail, lighting, horses in the camp, etc, they did everything like they were suppose to. 

    We got a whitewater trip this weekend. Class 2 and 3s. Company we hired alllows 8 year olds, and the section is advertised for beginners. We have been going over SSD and SA. We have gone over the basics of white water and will do more tonight. But I am anxious once again.

    Is this normal? I want my scouts to have great memories and fun, as well as being safe.

    It was normal for me. I typically didn't sleep for two nights before a campout and at least a week before summer camp or high adventure. While we share the program with the ASMs, JASMs, committee, and other resources, the SM is still responsible for results. Even though everything is in place the way it should be, the SM suffers in the hope that scouts come home better than they left. Not just in safety, but in growth. 

    However, on the other side, my wife will tell you there were many nights I didn't sleep because of something great that happened. I just couldn't help laying there with a big smile on my face. Whether it was a great meeting, campout or just a routine activity, there is immeasurable satisfaction (joy) from a great day of scouting.

    I have no advice other than keep doing what you are doing because the program only gets better.

    I love this scouting stuff.

    Barry

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  7. 2 hours ago, MattR said:

    Any of the methods, if done right, are fine. The problem is there are so many that everyone gets lost in the weeds and can't see the forest.

    I'd replace woodbadge with a 5 day class on creating fun games with a purpose. It's not even my idea. It's how Green Bar Bill did it. It's why I insisted on games at meetings and why our camporees were popular. Creating good games is not a difficult idea but it's hard to do and requires a lot of useful skills and imagination.

    Well said.

    I remember back when this forum was the go-to place to learn more games. The Patrol Method and Open Discussion areas usually had at least 3 subjects going on at the same time discussing such ideas. Ah....the good oh days when 800 scouters were logged in.

    Barry

  8. 1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

     

    De-Prioritize 

    #1 Uniform - Honestly, I would be fine if we just went to a neckerchief.  Show up in what is appropriate.  A suit for a formal occasion.  Work shirt and jeans.  Etc.  Just have that neckerchief and lets go!

    I believe Uniform and disciplining bad behavior are the two most challenging parts of a scout run program for adults. Adults seem to have an unbalanced passion for these two cases and typically takeover the scouts responsibility to get what they want. I certainly don't agree that the uniform is a main reason a scout doesn't want to go to meetings in a healthy program. 

    The uniform is a great character builder because it clearly defines a scout's right or wrong choice. It also challenges them to define when the uniform should be worn appropriately.

    1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

    #2 Advancement - Eliminate all ranks except Eagle.  Less focus on Eagle as closing out a checklist of activities vs an indication of top scouts.  Let Scoutmasters decide who their Eagle scouts are based upon Scout's accomplishments over time.  Other ranks ... end.  You learn scouting skills, but no need to advertise a rank.  Scout leaders can assign tasks & roles based on your skill.  Merit badges are fine, but reduced focus. 

    Youth today live in a world of mediocrity and don't know how to find the best of themselves. I'm not a fan of how advancement has been used by adults to push their ideal program, but advancement is a method for a scout to learn about their capabilities, while not fearing the differences of others. Every rank should be worn with pride. And it challenges the group to respect each other fairly as the Oath and Law defines. 

    1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

     

    #3 Adult Association - I think we actually have too much adult association right now.  Yes, keep scoutmaster conferences and adults involved in the program.  However, if we make the mistake ... make it with less adult association as many kids today have too much (helicopter parents, etc.).

    I very much agree. This goes back to what I said about adults impressing their opinion on the scouts when they want it their way.  And, I found that a troop where the scouts deal directly with bad behavior has a lot less bad behavior. Many adults think bad behavior is only an adult responsibility, and don't realize they are leaving the scouts dealing it without tools to stop it. Dealing with bad behavior is a challenge for even the adults, so if the program gives everyone the responsibility to confront and deal with it, then the behavior is usually nipped in the bud.

    But, I admit giving scouts the freedom to learn from their mistakes takes practice, and the humility that adults may do it wrong more than the scouts.

    1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

     

    #4 Personal Growth - I think this will happen anyway.  

    Yes, the scouts will gain personal growth, but what does that mean. I once watched a troop scouts bully another troop during the camp volley ball terminate tournament. I watched the scoutmaster smile with his approval with every bad action. What kind of personal growth were those scouts getting.

    Adults don't have to be the wisdom of personal growth if they just teach the scouts to grade their decisions on the oath and law. Oh, we don't have to preach and preach oath and law, but it we start balancing the choices being made by the oath and law, the scouts will eventually get it. They don't talk about it, but they do learn to balance their decisions.

    Barry

  9. 4 minutes ago, elitts said:

    One of the reasons why I keep reminding our scouts to end every meeting with 30-40 minutes of a game.

    I've even been tempted to build a snack into the troop budget for the end of meetings.  I know getting a treat of some kind does great things for making meetings better in the working world, no reason why it wouldn't work for kids.

    First year I was Cubmaster I asked a den of Webelos why they chose the troop they were just about to cross over to. They said That troop had the best game at the meeting. A treat would be even better.😀

    Barry

    • Upvote 2
  10. 6 minutes ago, ramanous said:

    Boring meetings? Are these Scout led patrols? What Scouting things does the PLC plan for these meetings? If they aren't planning meetings, then that's the primary problem. If they are, then they need be "guided" towards fun activities with positive outcomes.

    This is always a chador all troops. How can adults push adventure without running over scout run? One method tried was given the SM an equal share of ideas. Our troop does an annual plan every 6 months after the SPL election. The PLC is basically reviewing the next 6 months and planning the 6 months after. The PLC asks for 3 ideas in 3 categories from each patrol and SM. The categories are monthly theme, camping location, and camping activities (usually coincides with monthly theme, but doesn’t have to). Each PL writes their patrols ideas on on a big sheet of paper on the wall and then they rank their 3 best choices. This is where the adults slide in suggestions of more adventure, or making a boring theme fun like first-aid. 
     

    20 minutes ago, ramanous said:

    Treat the meetings like short outings. Every outing needs some structure, preferably Scout led (meal times, activities, and that doesn't mean an outing can't have unstructured down-time.)

    Great idea. The problem with structure is that it gets stale, predictable and boring. Young adults hate boring. Move a meeting to a different location like a park for some orientating or fire building. Bring ingredients for smores. Bring backpacks and take a mile hike to review packing techniques and weight. Hotdogs? Just figure out ways to change it up. Teach the scouts how to be spontaneous by bringing a local fire truck to the meeting. A few minutes of fire safety?  I don’t know, make it fun. 
     

    Barry

     

    • Upvote 1
  11. 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

    IMHO, we are not in their league even though the BSA likely greatly outspends UK Scouting. Maybe Mr. Grylls and some of his ambassadors can recruit and train our new leaders for the reboot. There is even a precedent for this, recall the BSA started after a British scout guided a lost American through the fog!

    As a start, we could ask to edit his video which already includes some Americans.

     

    I love this idea. But, you can tell me, haven't you (me:cool:) imagined that somehow you (me) was selected as part of a boots-on-the-ground team ofscouters teaching a new class of National Leaders. I (we:D) would do a very good job. We scouts have great imaginations. 

    Barry

    • Upvote 2
  12. 25 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

    Barry,  My thoughts start with my regretful view that the stand-alone program will not survive.   These are for the reasons already well-discussed above related to lack of demand, lack of focused volunteer resources to keep it going and a general failure to thrive for multiple factors.  I wish it were different.  Assuming that to be the case, my thoughts focus on repurposing the concept in a way to continue providing an older youth program that can function in a practical way.  Girls in our Troop stay because we offer a rigorous high-adventure program for them that is unavailable any where else in the District of Columbia.  We would simply brand that activity as Venturing and offer the girls the ability to do the advancement program.   The only things we would gain is use of the advancement program and and a rationale for older teen girls to join us (without having previously been active in the Troop).

    Makes sense. But, just be aware, a new title can create a new expectation. The older scout program success is directly relational on the success of the younger scout program. Not the other way around. Don't let the new addition change the younger scout program. I've seen it many times. All of a sudden the mindset of the younger scout program sees itself as just a stepping stone to the romantic older scout program. Don't let that mindset creep in to the unit culture. Keep the younger scout program as romantic as the older scout program and all will go well.

    Barry 

  13. 19 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

    My read of the postings and practical sense is that Venturing cannot survive as a stand-alone program and its potential future might be as a specialized and optional component of a Troop.  I wish it were different.

    My observation is the opposite of your read. The specialized older scout components of the troops are the programs in our district that have a life expectancy of 3 to 5 years. The stand-alone units that don't rely on troops for membership remain active for much longer periods of time. 

    Why do you feel your troop needs a separate older scout program? If your older scouts aren't leaving the program,  you must be doing something right.

    Barry

    • Upvote 1
  14. 1 hour ago, MattR said:

    So, how to organize crews in troops or lodges doesn't sound as important to me as understanding what it takes to create and maintain friendships. Why a patrol or crew is struggling likely has more to do with the quality of friendships than leadership. OA chapter meetings in my district struggle to get anyone to show up ... lack of friends. Why else would a 17 year old kid put up with the citizenship and 12 week MBs if it weren't for their friends? I watch adults decide patrols for all sorts of reasons other than friendships and it doesn't work very well. That's why I let the scouts decide.

    I agree friendships definitely are the reason why scouts keep coming back.

    But, after  training adults for several years, I feel the struggle is getting the troop adults to trust that they don't have to follow the push for an advancement type of program that they keep getting told to produce. I don't hear it as much now so much, but "First Class in the First Year" FCFY was the montra adults were hearing over and over back in the 90's. I was called an extremist for pushing back. Troops were then told by council to look at Venturing to fix their older scout membership problems.

    I don't blame Council, they were only pushing what they were being trained to push by National. But, Troops are  pushed to turn into a First Class factory, and then suffering the consequences of a boring program that pushes both the adult leaders and older scouts to run from. Older scout programs require a passion to work and mentor with young adults, not just activities that entertain everyone for a weekend every couple of months. 

    I counseled several troop leaders on their older scout membership problems and while they agreed that their troop FCFY program was boring and needed to change, they needed a plan to follow to do that and there really isn't one. Oh sure, I helped them some, but the truth is that district units become the program that district training pushes. And unless District has the knowledge and courage to be different, district training  teaches units what council tells them to teach. So, being different is challenging in of itself. 

    I don't have a real good answer for how to fix the older scout program at a national level because National has never shown a willingness to be open to ideas of how to approach these kinds of  problem.  

    Barry

    • Upvote 1
  15. 1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    The post-MB signature process is important.  A unit leader should ask these questions:

    1.  How'd it go?  Did you enjoy this MB?  What did you like about it?  What did you dislike about it?  Then find out what the Scout wants to work on next.  I often used the post-MB session to help the Scout pick the next MB, and then start the next blue card right then and there.

    2.  Did you like working with this MB Counselor?  Did you review all the requirements with the MBC?  Did you complete all the requirements with the MBC?  (If the answer is "No", and it occasionally is, you work with the Scout to find a way to complete the badge.  This is one of the hardest things to do, and it is impossible to intercept them all.)  Did the MBC have you complete all the requirements as stated?  Did the MBC require you to complete anything extra that was not written in the requirements?

    3.  Would you work with this MBC again?  Do you recommend other Scouts in our Troop go to this MBC?

    4.  Did you thank the MBC?  When the Scout has done this, I also send a brief email or text to the MBC thanking them for their support.  No, it isn't required, but a Scout is Courteous, and when someone has given their time to help you, you darned well better thank them.  If I had to make a 13th Point of the Scout Law it would be A Scout is Grateful!

    Spend a bit more time with the Scout, and you've done a Scoutmaster Conference!  Sign two things off!

    We did fine without adding another administrative step in the scouts adventures.

    Barry 

  16. We've had many discussions around this subject and there are a lot of opinions to the Scoutmaster's role in the process. I personally believe that the SM should verify the MB Counselor and move on. It was a little easier for me because our council used white cards that only require one SM signature at the beginning of the scout's quest. The two signatures on the Blue Cards don't make sense to me, and set the SM's state of mind of being more involved. But, our district SM's had to be corrected in training that the signature is required at the beginning, not the end of the scout's required tasks.

    Personally I believe scouts learn more skills in the administrative requirements of the badge and contacting the councilor than any other part of the advancement program.

    Barry

    • Upvote 2
  17. 22 hours ago, Calion said:

    I don’t necessarily disagree with any of that, but when a new Scout (particularly, in my experience, a girl) is put in charge of a patrol or troop, they often really have no idea what they’re doing, and, more importantly, lack confidence in their ability to do it, no matter how much talking beforehand you might do. Therefore, I simply don’t see a problem with significant hand-holding in the beginning, even, as I said, to the point of literally whispering what to say next in their ear, should that become necessary. And I don’t understand why you do.

    I personally believe that scouts under the age 14 should not be leaders of groups. Their pre pubescents maturity isn't developed enough to process the lessons from the mistakes. As you said, they loose confidence and start wanting to stay home.

    I do agree that a new troop with new scouts do require some hand holding. But, not much. My recommendation for new Scoutmasters of new troops with young scouts was do only 3 month leadership stents to prevent burnout. 

    The point the others are making here is don't loose the the foundation of developing growth through making mistakes in the program. Once a troops starts down the path, it's hard to change.

    Barry

  18. 13 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    The reason why this disturbs is that it supposed that mass murder could be a rational conclusion based on the environment in which one is immersed.

    Having known a few young men (all from good parents) who committed suicide (not all with firearms), I often wonder if one or two of them were motivated by an urgent need to prevent themselves from doing anything worse. Obviously I’ll never know, but I certainly wish they had the courage to talk it out with one or more of the many people who they could trust,myself included.

    This is an interesting post. My high school teacher son was just telling me how many suicidal  students have approached him for help. He takes them immediately to see the councilor but sits with them while they wait. He is glad they trust him, but struggles with the number. Most of the students that approach him are in pain from loneliness. Covid certainly hasn't helped but he says that social media is crew. But, what really surprised me was how many of his students have gone to prison for murder. He said that in most cases, you would have never guessed they could do that. Which I guess is your point.

    Barry

  19. 8 minutes ago, MattR said:

    The problem with the methods is that they don't include what youth are really looking for. All scouts want fun with friends and older scouts want a unique challenge (high adventure, working with younger scouts, service, it depends on the scout). To make scouting work they also need to learn how to create this on their own. That's not simple. It's more than organizing a campout every month.

    It includes understanding what motivates the scouts, and that's an age old problem. Most people fear the unknown yet every adventure includes the unknown. 

    I agree that developing creative habits is certainly part of the challenge. Creativity is a skill many youth don't practice before they join the troop and patrol method expects a lot from it.

    I also think the administrative tasks can overwhelm the adventure. I find that if the patrol meeting (patrol corners and PLC meeting) are more about planning and less about talking or learning a skill for the next adventure, they get tedious and boring. The challenge is finding the balance. And the scouts don't have to be moving to be interested. One meeting that my sons really liked was when we had a gun expert visit to talk about the parts of a gun and how to handle them safely. There was no activity for the scouts to hold the gun or discuss the safety. Just listening to the expert had their attention. I am sure they talked about that meeting a school the next day.

    Scouting is hard.

    Barry

     

  20. 14 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

    So what is your fix for Venturing?

    We start by asking why we want Venturing. Patrol Method scouting survives because the ultimate goal is to build mature person of character. Oh, there are several ways to say that, but the BSA Mission is building ethical and moral decisions makers. That is a foundation worth building. And, it's not just a noble goal, scouting has a tool for getting there called patrol method.

    The struggle with Venturing is that 90% of it's members are motivated by the romance of adventure. Which, is silly to me because our troop did most of the adventure that local Venturing Crews do around here. Adventure is just a type of temporary adrenalin high. What is left when the scouts come off the adrenalin high? What next?

    The thing that keeps older scouts in scouting is the community of where they can challenge to one self. Adventure is just the arena where the young adults go to find the challenge. The challenge is making one self better so as to feel good about being that person. The troop does that through the challenges of making decisions about other people in the patrols and troop. The community of the patrol and troop is constant that keeps scouts coming back for the challenge. I find that most Venturing Crews are less about challenging one self to make better decisions and more about the boring actions of planning the next adventure. There needs to be more about meeting to plan the next adventure.

    Several years back the DE approached me about starting a Venturing Crew in our troop because our one troop had more scouts 14 and older than any other unit (troop or crew) in the Council. Our council is almost half the state of Oklahoma. What he didn't understand was that the attraction to our troop as an older scout was that our culture treated them as adults. When you  think about where a 15 year old can go to be treated equally to a 30 or 40 year old, you start to understand the attraction. Our troop challenge each scout to grow into a more mature person through the actions and decisions of their responsibilities during the activities.  

    I once polled all our scouts 14 and older as to why they stayed in our troop. I got all sorts of answers, but less than 50% said it was for the adventure part of the program. And their attendance to higher level adventure treks supported that data. Many young adults want adventure, but most just want to be around other people who respect them to be  adults. Venturing is coming up short in scouting because it doesn't provide a community for scouts to be adults. It needs more than adventure. 

    I understand this perception because I was in a Scuba Diving Explorer Post for 3 years. I rarely dove much because most of their trips were more expensive than I could afford. But, there was an expectation of me by the group to act like and adult, and I thrived on that expectation. We had a lot of other activities besides Diving in other parts of the world to keep us busy. I was also the president of the Oklahoma State flying Club in college. I would guess that 50% of those members were not pilots. We were a busy club and many, if not most, of the activities didn't require all the members to be pilots. I can't say that the club had a noble goal of building character, But, it must have been a fun group to hang around.

    Our troop was successful with older scouts because it was a fun place to hang out. Venturing needs to be a place to hang out for the age group it wants to attract. Ironically, I don't think adventure is the hang out part of the program. 

    Barry

    • Upvote 3
  21. 1 hour ago, Navybone said:


    I’ll start my response with this, neither political party has the spine or integrity to address this issue, this violence that is killing children.  

    If not enough that’s been done about mental health since Columbine, 23 years ago, and not enough since Sandy Hook, 10 years ago, what needs to still be done?  Just saying mental health is not an answer but an handwave to avoid talking about the issue.  It’s a cop-out .

    And I am no statistician, but to the facts of murders with guns stand up to scrutiny when competing in liberal state versus conservative?   

    Fianlly, do you really think that censorship is the answer, and it is ok so long as it protects the second amendment?  The constitution also used to support the practice of slavery, but the country was smart enough to figure out that that part of the constitution needed to be fixed.  


     

     

    I struggle with responses like this because they don't invite a discussion unless it is one sided. Kind of a type of censorship to me.

    If anyone thinks this is just a guns issue, then I believe they are coming from a political agenda perspective and don't really care about the children.

    Mental health should  certainly be part of the discussion because who would consider the state of mind of this killer to be normal. I once listened to a psychologist on NPR. He was hired by an east coast state after the Columbine school shooting to travel and organize community meetings with parents to discuss how family dynamics can effect the mental health of youth in school. The conclusion of experts and political elites at the time was that the shooters were loners and their parents were part of the problem because they never realized their sons planning the shooting. The psychologist said he was very concerned after leading these community discussions because the parents didn't seem to want to understand their roles in a healthy family dynamics. He said the parents were so fixated on their personal lives that they were instead trying to fit their kids in the parents busy lives instead of developing a life around the whole family. That was very frightening because that was a professional who was politically liberal speaking on a NPR.

    Let's have a real discussion.

    Barry

     

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