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Posts posted by Eagledad

  1. 5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

    So you are saying the ends justifies the means and you would not sacrifice your experience for mine?

    My experience for yours! Should everyone in the nation sacrifice their education for the one abused student? We could go on and on, should we sacrifice aviation for one crash victim? Should we sacrifice cars? Your question doesn’t have a pragmatic relevance. Your trying use moralism to raise your anger above the nobility of scouting’s mission. But your question isn’t in context with the overall good of scouting’s mission anymore than the abuse student in public school. Bad things happen to good people, but the world doesn’t come to an end.


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  2. 1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

     ask you this, if you could change history and not have BSA come into existence would you for the sake of all of the victims?

    I was just thinking about this question with all the abuse in the public school system. In fact, you could ask the question of any organization, associated, or public institute. One victim of harm is a crime against humanity. Should the National public school system be shutdown over one victim. Maybe five. Dare not that we even consider 10 victims against  all the good that has come from the public school system over the last 100 years.

    The question has no relevance forward balance and never will with the hurt with any victim of unfair harm in any system intended to advance positive growth of its members because it doesn’t take in the positive accompaniments of the goals.

    if 99 percent of the community doesn’t relate to a victims pain, it’s because the 99 percent didn’t feel that experience That doesn’t mean they don’t feel compassionate. They do. 


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  3. 8 hours ago, yknot said:

    But it's only in scouts where you are banned or muzzled or labeled fun police for simply reading, knowing, and following the policies and procedures manual, which in BSA's case is G2SS. In any other youth organization it's not a battle to get people to follow it. If you don't follow it, you generally get tossed.

    Examples please!


  4. 5 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    IMHO, the Patrol Method is not that everyone has a specific job rather everyone helps get the whole job done.

    My $0.02,

    This is part of it, but patrol method is also developing habits that enable immature decision makers an environment to practice choices based from the scout law. That in of itself is chaotic enough. Some regimented procedures provide scouts a safe place to make decisions based on the law instead of emotion. Structure is kindness. And when an individual builds the habit of making decisions based from trustworthy, helpful, friendly, …….., then they have the maturity to try it differently to improve the results, just like my kids are doing as parents. 


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  5. 13 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

    The non-white and non-male populations to start with. I would think that hundreds of wood badgers each year might make a small difference. Small improvements, each year, add up to a lot. 

    I think you might be confusing inclusion and diversity. They aren't the same thing. Anyone who lives by the Oath and Law will do the right thing. no-matter the differences of the other person.

    That being said, how do you know non-white's and non-males to be a problem, I would be interested to see your data because I know the non-males around here make up close to 50% of the membership at the adult level. So your data will be interesting. 

    As for Woodbadge making a difference, well, hmm. I don't see it. Maybe I'm looking to much at the big picture. However, because I have seen it locally, I believe the BSA would have a more profound effect on the community with diversity if they spent a little more time preaching and teaching Patrol Method and Scout independent decision making. The best teacher is one's last mistake.


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  6. 46 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

    Great philosophy. The issue is that the BSA has been irrelevant to certain populations in the country the wood badge ticket item is there to help change that. 

    It's just a way for the BSA to check the progressive. box. I'm not sure what population you are speaking of, but this requirement isn't going to change it. The BSA has been working to get into other demographics like inner city, but the effort is a challenge that requires a lot of resources. 


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  7. 33 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    I have found that treating people as unique individuals who are created in the image of God to be the most useful take on developing relationships with people, helping them explore their challenges, hopes and dreams, and working with them to reach for their potential.

    This is really good, thanks Inquisitivescouter. I used to highlight to scouts and adult leaders in training that the Scout Oath and Law are framed in diversity. The Scout states that they under their honor they will do their best to do their duty of treating all unique individuals under the one Scout Law.


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  8. It seemed our first year first campouts were rainy the first night, forcing them to set up camp in the rain. Their thorns on that campout was the rain. Two years later the rain was their best memory. I never told them that I always prayed for rain on those campouts.


  9. I come from the camp of not co-Eding the troop program because my experience is that the adventure nature of prepubescent boys don't mix well with the organizational nature prepubescent girls, The result is neither group grows much from the experience. However, I think co-ed is fine after puberty because the maturity of their adult nature does mix well together and is a benefit for growth.. 

    This I believe corelates with qwazse's experience of junior high age youth. I have the been their done that shirt.


  10. 1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

    I agree.  There has always been a mismatch between perceptions and what works; a mismatch in many directions.   It's important to also remember that scouting has always a very structured program.  

    I agree. The struggles come from lack of understanding the purpose of the structure. 

    The scout program competes with two divergent basic instincts. The prepubescent instinct is to play. Playing is the practice of survival that theoretically prepares the youth to compete in their adult life. The adult instinct is to compete in status. The higher status in the herd provides better benefits of life.

    Just about everyone has these instincts to some degree. The struggle for scouting is the youths drive to play doesn't fit in with the adults drive to compete. If the adult had the youth scouting experience, their fond memories of play balance or humbles their instinct to compete.

    You can see why the adult without youth memories is going to use their instinct to compete for driving the program. What are the ways to compete in the troop program? Advancement and Leadership. Unfortunately, advancement and leadership are the easier and most apparent methods of competing in the program, which is why they often take front stage.

    When the youth drive for fun is balanced with the adult drive to compete, the adult will blend competition with the fun for the goal of scout growth. The structure of Elections and patrol social order are some of the challenges of making right and wrong decisions. So a healthy program uses the balance of the youth instincts and adult instinct for growth. We just have to understand where to balance.


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  11. 29 minutes ago, MattR said:

    I'm going to push back on this a bit. I've met plenty of parents and kids that would have really enjoyed the free range part of scouts and yet had no desire to join. It seems to me the perception of scouts is more organized activity than make up your own fun. Advancement can easily be seen as everyone fulfilling nearly identical rrequirements. An expensive uniform that is used for meetings and travel is, well, uniform.

    The idea that scouts can choose their own activities is buried way down in what anyone sees from the outside.

    If that's the perception then is there any wonder why we struggle with parents that want highly structured activities? Maybe scouts is attracting the wrong kids and parents.

    I don't know. The perception is outdoors fun. Just about all of scout marketing is outdoor activities. But I agree that the training has the perception of organized activities with very little balance of scout run. 

    The point of my post is that scouters with a youth scouting experience are more likely to let scouts choose their own activities. Or at the very least, not focus program on the advancement list. As a youth, they remember what was fun, and not so fun. So, they jump start to that part of the experiences. 


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  12. 10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Or they were involved during the 1970s "Improved Scouting Program." One Eagle from ISP era did not understand why camping is so important. They do a lot of car camping and MBUs.


    In my neck of the woods, that is an understatement. I have heard of district commissioners being yelled and cursed at by professionals, and read one DE's abusive texts to the district commissioner. I myself have been ignored and overruled by the DE about an event I was running. I have friends who have had events changed at the last minute by professionals. I had a friend removed from his district and council level duties because he was not a "team player," read he opposed the sale of a camp and was trying to save it. Within the year prior to removal, he was responsible for 2 council level and and 5 district level activities.

    So volunteers are used until they burn out, or forced out, in my neck of the woods. 

    The Commissioner Corp is only as good as the District Commissioner.  I personally belive that the District Commissioner is the most important scouting in the district. The DC controls or has heavy influence in all the the District Activities.


  13. 2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

    And quite a few had a youth scouting experience which was completely adult driven and run; they are doing what they know. Quality Control in BSA is non-existent and hasn't existed for decades.

    Quality control is basically training. Adults hate to be told they are doing it wrong, so theoretically training should start them in the right direction at the begining. But, the BSA is learning from the experience of bringing in female adults. One of the ironic results of the old training courses is that they set the wrong example for new leaders. The reason Woodbsdge was changed was because leaders were trying to mimic the Woodbadge course. One big example was adults eating their meals with the scouts. National realized that it needed a more basic style of training designed with inexperienced adults in mind. That is what the courses are today, believe it or not.

    Other than watching and learning in a functional scout run troop, I'm not sure how to get new adult leaders up to speed.


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  14. I've told the story many times here of the SM of a 6 month old troop calling to ask what activities scouts can do on campouts besides advancement. When I suggested a few hours of free time, he couldn't allow it because the scouts would just go out and get into mischief. 

    That SM was never in scouts as a youth and I've observed over the years that adult leaders without a youth scouting experience have a different expectation of the scouting experience than those who did have a youth scouting experience. To be fair, they aren't purposely taking the outing out of scouting, they just don't know. They start by doing what is easiest, and that is following instructions for advancement. 

    And while I enjoyed working with, and mentoring, many female adult leaders, bringing them into the troop program as leaders changed the program a lot because they didn't bring with them a boy scout youth scouting experience. Of course male adults without the experience are just a problematic, as I pointed out in my example above. But women, at least in our area, make up around 50% of the adult leaders in troops. It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if 75% of new adult troop leaders today didn't have a youth scouting experience.  So, we shouldn't be surprised of a trend where scouts are restricted from creative freedoms and decisions.


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  15. That is interesting. We once organized a Trooporee with three other troops. I could see that being interpreted as taking funds away from the District Camporee. I don't think the rule existed then, but if it did, we would likely have figured a way around it because our Trooporee was so much better than the Camporee.:cool:


  16. I once did a Tim the Tool Man Taylor skit for a pinewood derby announcement. Tim tries to show Al how to make a pinewood derby but uses all the wrong tools (chainsaw) and makes a mess. The skit was just to make a boring announcement fun and was not a how-to of making a pinewood derby. We did that on a Saturday. That was 25 years ago, so I don't remember much of it, but you could do something like that with a clumsy character trying to show how to set up a tent with a straight person fixing the mess.


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  17. Very cool.

    Have you done a camping trip with a pack? It's not like camping in a troop. 90% of the campers either have never camped or have very little experience. Most will have to borrow any gear they bring. And meals are easier done for the whole pack because finding gear and cooks for smaller groups is a challenge. I'm a big believer in freed time, but cub age families really need more planned activities, even for free time. Those Tigers are as cute as can be, but they are slippery little devils if they are busy.

    As for how to present it; the presentation needs to be fun, funny and entertaining. or you will find yourself spending more time trying to quiet down the scouts.

    I will work on some ideas.


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  18. 11 hours ago, yknot said:

    Not unique? No other youth or young adult organization at the time was selling itself to the American public as a bastion of moral standards and therefore safety. Not 4-H. Not YMCA. Not Little League. Boy scouts marketed its oath and law to boys and parents to convince them they were joining an organization where people adhered to higher ideals and implied their kids would be safe. I don't fault Scouts for having a problem with youth abuse and not being sure what to do about it in individual cases. I do fault them for continuing to cloak themselves in a dishonest false morality and continuing with business as usual when these cases began to pile up. The leaders knew there was a problem then, later, and now. The "red files" as they were first called in the 1920s or so, and then later the IV files, and now the more popularly labeled "perversion" files, are the irrefutable proof. 

    First off, in your 1000 or so posts, I can’t recall you saying one positive thing about the BSA. Second, if you don’t preach it, you don’t teach it. The BSA vision is building character. That’s what the organization preaches, and that is what they teach. Not everyone is in it for the vision, but most are. The moral standards of character is still noble.


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  19. 7 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

    Yeah, BSA says not to caravan and that's good advice. On the highway, it's not that hard to safely stay fairly close if traffic is light. In urban areas with traffic lights, it's a bad idea to try to stay together.

    Actually its the urban areas with traffic lights that cause much of the problem because the following drivers will take risks to keep up with the lead driver when lights change between vehicles, or they quickly change lanes when traffic gets heavy. I've witnessed two near collisions in those scenarios. It's better that each driver gets the next stop on their own. That may still be only a few blocks apart, but the following driver isn't being motivated to catch up. As for the van without a 2nd driver, might consider a mature scout who can help navigate and attend with the passengers. I even did an Eagle BOR in that situation on the way to Philmont.


  20. A few lesson s learned from van trips.

    Two drivers per vehicle are a must. Switch out every two or three hours is recommended. 

    Gas stops and snack/food stops take three times longer with scouts because they are painfully slow. We found Scouts and adults should wear uniforms so the store and restaurant employees know who all those kids running around wildly belong to. Travel is the only time our scouts are required to wear a uniform. 

    Make sure all drivers have the lists of phone numbers and designated stops. We even include copies of health forms for each vehicle.

    Don't caravan or follow each other. The BSA suggest it, but travel is safer when the following vehicles aren't trying to keep up in traffic. Even with drivers driving at their personal comfortable speed, we were never more than 10 minutes apart after a 3 hour leg.

    Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Have a great trip.


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  21. On 2/23/2022 at 5:26 PM, 69RoadRunner said:

    Yeah, we're doing Philmont this year and renting a van from Denver airport and wow is it expensive. I'm hoping things are better next year when we do a roll your own trip. 

    I'm trying to find a few viable trips to present to the troop for 2023. Viable for a group of scouts is the greatest challenge. The scouts have done none of these trips I'm looking at, so they'd all be great experiences. My wise Committee Chair said pick trips I'd love to do since I'm doing all this work and the scouts will love it, too.

    We've been rotating between Philmont, Sea Base and Northern Tier. I thought it would be nice to do something on our own. 

    Can you tell me about the Tetons part of your trip? That could be part of a Plan B for us.

    A few thoughts; I seem to remember crews taking a train to Philmont from Denver. troops and churches might help get a crew to Philmont using their own vehicles. We did several backing trips through summer camp high adventure programs. That was 20 years ago and the economy may have stopped those programs, but they were all over the U.S. and basically just provide a guide and the rest is on your own. 

  22. 1 hour ago, qwazse said:

    That was what the Cub Scout handbook was for me ... an outline of things to do that I had not tried before. I vividly remember:

    • holding open the page about neckties in front of a mirror until I no longer needed a clip-on.
    • learning referee/umpire signals. Although I wasn't athletic, I began to enjoy watching sports more because I could follow the adjudication as well as the action.
    • model boats with rubber band motors.
    • collections -- our DL had us bring what we were collecting to a Den meeting.

    Plus, the book served Bobcat, Wolf, and Bear, if I recall.

    Ah the good ol days.

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