Eagledad

Spending Capital for the purpose of correcting a scout’s motivation behind bad decisions is the main responsibility of the SM. As everyone agrees, their dress was inappropriate and just plain disrespectful to the group. What level of inappropriate and disrespectful actions are we to consider a starting place?

Barry

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

My Troop puts the name and year of Eagle Scouts on the trailer doors. On the front of one of the trailers we have a "In Memory Of" and the names of volunteers who were members of the Troop when they passed. Thankfully it's a short list. 

In Memory Of” is a cool idea. We also put our Eagles on the trailer. That tradition save another troop in town when an ASM  found himself following their troop trailer on a normal work day. He called the police and followed the trailer until the police pulled the thieves over.

We try to recognize our hard working volunteers at every COH.

Barry

There is patrol method, and then there is Patrol Method. I found that no scouting activity bonds and challenges scouts more than patrol meals. Nothing comes close. Meals should be a team effort with building the fire, collecting wood for the fire, preparing food, cooking food, then cleaning up afterwards. Patrols that struggle the most don't work as a team. Instead they typically assign two to four scouts who feel stuck with tasks. Patrols where everyone is working to get the meal prepared are typically well bonded and spend half the time for meals preparation. 

Preparing meals is a skill, if not an art. My older son loved to be troop guide mostly because he liked to teach his patrol how to cook. And traditionally, he cooked a turkey for their first evening campout. 

I understand the dilemma of preparing meals at summer camp. We more than not don't because there are many camps where the scouts can prepare their meals. From a logistics perspective, getting food to patrols to prepare is a lot more challenging than just preparing the meals and having the scouts stand in line with their trays. But, from a character building and scouts skills perspective, scouts grow so much more preparing their own meals.

Then there is the high adventure treks. That is another level of team skills all-together. Introduce sumping for clean-up to encourage the scouts to cook better. I'm not talking about digging a hole, but consuming all leftover bits.

There are different ways to challenge patrols so that they grow together as servants to each other. And I challenge troop leaders to look for those methods. But, nothing like cooking as a team creates that servant bond.

Barry

6 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I don't have anything to add on the specific cases, but that was the prompt to change that NYLT courses are required to have a two SMs now, one male and one female.

Makes sense, but that is a lot of sexual abuse. And NYLT is generally observed pretty close. I wonder what is labeled sexual abuse.

Barry

13 hours ago, Wyobkr said:

In 2021 I attended NYLT course director's conference in the fal.  It started off completely different than any other of the ones I had been to.  Took just a short time before the questions were asked why it was different.  The staff stated that in 2021 there were 42 complaints filed of youth on youth sexual abuse at NYLT courses.  So that is the number of filed complaints, you know that is only part of the total number.  And this is at the leadership training course where you hope that there is more maturity and composure.  And attendance at NYLT is a fraction of attendance at summer camps.  So, there is the counter to your "nobody got raped".  I decided that I am not willing to participate when the risk of liability is too high.  Personal choice of course.

There has got to be more to this story.

Barry

18 minutes ago, MattR said:

No to the first, yes to the second (at least how I would have handled it). Stupid comments are a good opportunity to bring the scout law alive.

Yep, exactly. Still, it's hard for folks to understand that you want scouts to make bad decision now so that they can be corrected for adulthood. I would be surprised that girls don't make decisions in this area as well. I have witnessed such attitudes on this forum. 

Barry

8 minutes ago, MattR said:

The biggest problem I've seen is obnoxious boy says stupid things to girl and, rather than an older scout slapping him up side his head and ending it, it exploded into phone calls and meetings and drama, oh my! But, nobody got raped.

Sad to say the least, but I find that in most cases, there is an adult somewhere that planted a seed and the scout gets the blame. If this is not the case, then it comes down to the SM having a discussion about making a bad decision. 

Barry

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

That is quite a jump when you say allowing someone not to wear the official uniform pants means that YPT or smoking rules are optional also.  One is for the safety of the youth and one is the present a unformed appearance for BSA scouts but actually little bearing on the ability to safely meet the mission of scouting. 

This is not the military.  Lets not pretend it is and approach it the same way.

It’s funny to me how adults set rules to keep from admitting a foul. A number of years back the mother of a high school student put a butter knife in her sons lunch to spread the peanut butter she included on his crackers. When a teacher saw the butter knife, the student was kicked out of school for breaking zero tolerance knife policy. As you said, the rule is for safety and the butter knife had little bearing on the mission of safety. But, nobody was willing to bend.

I learned hypocrisy is by far the greatest violation adults make to youth as the youth grow in learning to make sound judgments and decisions. We adults have experience of life and use that leverage to never apologize for our pride and fickleness.

Barry

34 minutes ago, MattR said:

I think the hardest part is being prepared for scouts that want to push boundaries or buttons. But that's on the adults, not the scouts.

By the way, the scout wearing the neon pants turned out to be an outstanding SPL.

 

I agree. But I did not dictate any expectations of how scouts wear the uniform in our troop. I did give the PLC the expectation of making right decisions. The handbook tells the scouts how to wear the uniform, so they didn’t need the adults help. But, the question came up now and then if they were making a good decision on how they wore their uniform. I did have some really good discussions on the subject with the PLC. If the adults can’t justify the uniform in the big picture of developing good character, then the uniform will always be a problem because youth don’t naturally relate dress code to character.

Our PLC was responsible for the scouts using the 8 methods. In fact, each PL set goals for each method to measure their performance. Adults had nothing to do with their goals. And, I would say the uniform was typically one of the most challenging methods to improve. The thing is that each scout is going through personal challenges in life that sometimes confuse the importance of a proper uniform, as well as making good decisions. While a scout likely never heard me question their uniform, they had heard me mention right and wrong decisions several times.

If I had to guess how many scouts made correct uniform decisions on a typical meeting or campout, I would guess 50%.

While we adults didn’t usually dictate a policy that the scouts already had in their handbooks, we did enforce wearing the uniform while traveling. We found that 50 boys running around a convenance store grabbing junk food during a fuel stop made store employees nervous. The uniform identified the adults who were responsible for them, which made the employees much more comfortable.

Barry

1 hour ago, yknot said:

From everything I've seen, heard, and read over the years it is a desire for more functional fabric, fit, design, and components. Cost is part of the design and components part -- many people want uniforms streamlined to reduce cost, particularly the cub uniform where multiple new components need to be purchased for every rank. Telling people to go look in secondhand stores, which is something I repeatedly see recommended in scouting unlike other youth activities and organizations, isn't a great strategy. To me that means the uniform is a unique barrier in scouting for many.   

Barrier? Or part of the game. 

I took an active part in sending National letters 25 years ago explaining the huge negative impact the Tigers program had on the rest of the program. But, one part of the Tiger program they were doing right was issuing Tiger Cub T-shirts. The Tigers only needed a $15 T-shirt for their uniform. In 2000, National change the Tiger program that went totally opposite of what I felt was the fix to the membership problems caused by the Tigers. I was pretty angry. But, what really got me was National switched from the T-Shirt to the more expensive Official Cub Scout Uniform. When I inquired about that change (complained), I was shown some data where parents felt that Tigers were not treated equally because of their uniform. They wanted their toddler cubs to look just like the rest of the pack. It was the parents who wanted the more expensive uniform.

I hear now and then over the years from a few people of how the uniform is either driving membership away, or preventing youth from joining at all. They don't have any real proof, the suggestion is just personal and local. I don't believe it. I think most of the populous believe that the uniform is part of the adventure and fun. Yes, uniforms seem to have their issues of fit, material and appropriate wear. But, those issues are endured so that the scouts can get the full benefit of the program. My experience is scouts between the ages of 12 and 14 naturally struggle with their personal identity and they shun the uniform outside their activities. But, after 14, that pretty much goes away.

I'm not sure what improvements need to be made, I don't really care. I am so glad the shorts were lengthen after 1990. Boy, was that a welcome change. I will say I still have the collarless shirt I wore back in the early 70s and that was a very comfortable shirt. 

Barry

36 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

, the powers don't seem to be interested in maintaining a positive public image.  Whisper, laugh, ignore, or tolerate,  either way let's just throw the standard away and don't worry about it.   

I have no problem discussing uniform advances, but We can’t have discussions of improving marketing and give up the uniforms at the same time. Boy Scouts have been identifiable by their uniform since the program started 110 or so years ago.

Barry

I've noticed over the years that when a movie or television show wants to portray a female scout, they are wearing a similar uniform to the old Girl Scout dress even though the present uniform looks basically like a T-shirt. The movie Dodge Ball is a good example. The Boy Scout uniform is still portrayed pretty much like the Boy Scout uniform, give or take the brand protection. 

Barry

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I think the original question was what kind of tools should you carry for breakdowns. The best, cheapest, and most portable tool is always prevention so I like your hitch idea. There is no BSA safety training regarding trailers and towing and unit competency is all over the map as is how units deal with having a trailer. 

LOL, all over the map. We do training. Our QMs and drivers train together. They practice with the driver backing up to the trailer listening to the QM's directions.  Together they checking the lights and hooking the safety chain. And they discuss CG and loading. Not a hard course to whip up if you need one. 

I haven't seen any unit statistics on trailer incidents, which means there are likely very few. We had an axil break on one trip. Not a big deal for the car towing the trailer, but it could have been for the car behind if they hadn't provided the proper separation. I could see practicing changing a tire in training.

I have no problem with an adult giving a trailer a last look, but, loading a trailer isn't rocket science once those involved understand what to do. Like I said, troops tend to repeat the same trip 90% of the time. Scouts get used to where they typically place dutchovens and heavy tools like axes, patrol boxes and so on. It's that other 10% like high adventure that might need a review of CG.

We typically had two trailers: The large one for 100 weekend campouts and the small one for high adventure treks. Our troop is a backpacking troop and the Patrol leaders try to get backpacks hauled in cars if they can. We don't use patrol boxes and tables. Our stoves are backpacking stoves and the scouts may bring a cooler if their meals require it. Most camp gear is propane lantern and tarps. For a 100 scout troop, we travel pretty light, considering. And we like that.

Barry

1 hour ago, elitts said:

I strong believe that every troop with a trailer should have one of these.  https://www.weigh-safe.com/product/universal-tow-ball/

There are WAY too many parents pulling trailers without any good way to judge if the weight distribution is appropriate within the trailer (and lacking the experience to eyeball it)  Particularly with single axle trailers.  I know I had one year where someone pulled our trailer to summer camp and when they arrived complained about how terrible our trailer was to pull.  When I went over to it, I was able to easily lift the tongue off the hitch by myself.  The QMs and everyone else loading it had put virutally everything heavy just inside the rear door because it was "too hard" to shift the heavy stuff around inside the trailer.  I was honestly shocked person driving managed to make it down 65 miles of highway without the wobble taking them off the road.

You are over thinking this. Our QM was in charge insuring the patrols loaded the trailer correctly and that it was hitched properly to the vehicle (verified lights and turn signals working). They were trained to keep the CG forward of the trailer axil, as well as, the hitch connected and locked correctly. Troop trailers tend to be loaded with the same gear 90% of their use. If the QM didn't go with the Troop or High Adventure Crew to insure the trailer was loaded correctly, they he trained someone.

We don't give the scouts enough credit. The vehicles didn't start driving for their destination until the SPL had a full count and said it was OK. The only time our troop left a scout behind was when the new SM didn't trust that policy. Wasn't me by the way.

Barry

Without naming names, a close friend worked in the local AT&T marketing department. He loved scouting and offered to give the council as $20,000 free newspaper advertising. I learned this from overhearing another friend in the same church who was in charge of the Council marketing complain that my other friends offer was an ego trip for him, so he turned it down. The irony was both wanted some credit and the field director wasn’t willing. Small minds lead small ideas.

Another year our council decided to streamline the Scouting For Food drive by having the scouts stick the SFF bags in mailboxes with a note that a scout would pick up the bags the next Saturday. The idea was units can cover more territory in less time. I was on the district committee and I told them during our meeting that the change was terrible for scouting exposure to the community. SFF was the one activity that just about everyone in the community got to personally meet, shake hands, and talk to a scout. The cut little Cub Scouts were an especially big hit. I also said that donations would likely drop 50% (just a guess but I needed leverage), and the Council’s change required two volunteer weekends instead of one. District decided to try the council’s change and from the council’s perspective, donations dropped almost 80%. Small minds lead to small ideas.

Scouting is ripe for marketing but nobody takes it seriously, especially the pros. As a scout, my neighbors met me at least twice a year when I approached them for fundraising and Selling Scouting fair tickets. I know times have changed but there isn’t even a thought about. I once proposed our district talk to local car dealer or shopping center to do the District Pinewood Derby. How many people would stop to watch. Boy Scouts are cool, but people love to watch cut little Cub Scouts.

I once suggested we do a Camparee at the local park and have all the troops back pack in from the CO. Can you imagine Boy Scouts backpacking all over town.

Scouting is an outdoor organization. It should be easy to get exposure.

We have small minds.

Thanks SSScout, I love that rescue video and was looking for it.

Barry

19 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Water balloon battles are not a good idea, UNLESS... you promise to count, then pick up and account for ALL the rubber balloons that are used, so they do not become a threat to wildlife trying to eat them. Truism....

 

Picking up the debris is part of the fun.

Barry

Your troop doesn’t really sound that bad. All troops have a few character traits that outsiders struggle with. Sounds like the adults could use a little training to get everyone’s mind on the same goals.

The PLC in our troop did all the Woodstools training using only BSA handbooks for reference without any trained troop adults watching. Both the new scouts and there parents were required to attend that class on their first campout. That was how we kept woods tools skills consistent and showed how much we trusted the scouts.

One suggestion for you is to volunteer as the troop adult trainer. You promise to use BSA materials, so everyone knows they are following BSA guidelines, policies, rules, and so forth. Be humble about and don’t go into it trying to change the SMs program. But, you would be amazed how senior leaders are open to different approaches when they learn from materials.
 

There was a lot of confusion of how scouts and MB counselors should work together and where the SMs authority fit in the MB process in our troop, so one of our committee members developed a course using BSA materials. One of the district council members caught wing of it and asked us (her) to teach a course every year to all the troops. You would be amazed how far off the rails a whole district of troops can go when there isn’t training specific to that issue. 
 

I see this as an opportunity for you to help both you and your troop adults step it up a notch. If you know how to make these things fun, you could do some adult training at troop meetings and give the adults a fun place to go while at the same time getting them out of the scouts way.

Good luck. I see a ticket item here.

Barry

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

.But, I’m just a stranger on the internet.

I’m trying to find it, but isn’t that a Johnny Cash song.

Barry

11 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I actually like that idea. A very active scout could do that in 2 years, 3 for a moderately active scout. I could see 40 including 2 summer camps or 40 including 1. 

Yes, it's one simple change that could bring some honor back into the BSA honor society. Of course the program still needs to be attractive for the scouts.

15 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

How would anyone else really know without camping with them for 15 nights? Their worthiness was determined by their peers.

Exactly.

Now, how to deal with the new voting scouts who haven't camped yet?

Barry

36 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Well, it would force them to be very active, but since our troop camps each month, you could do it i one year. We have 1 campout that is 1 day, so for us a Scout could get 21 and 5 in a year. 

Yep, I wasn't thinking clearly. 40 nights plus a summer camp.

Barry

One suggestion for simple ideas to work the challenge is require 20 nights of camping with the troop plus at least one consecutive 5 night camping trip with the Troop. That would force being active with the troop for at least 2 years. 

Barry 

12 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

That is up to the candidate if they want to go through the ordeal. It should be up to the Scouts to determine who amongst them is worthy. 

In the old days maybe when the scouts selected were more mature. But I watched a couple scouts at an Ordeal on the verge of crying because they weren't ready for sleeping without a tent followed by the meager breakfast. Not talking was out of the question. One scout was holding his dads arm so he would be pulled away with the other scouts, while the other arm was dragging his sleeping bag through the dirt and mud. I think the SM needs to determine the state of mind of these scouts so as not to endanger a scouting career based from one really bad experience.

Barry

I am a minimalist, mostly because I don't like to bring attention to myself. I also don't like to wear my WB Beads or OA sash. I do like my SM Patch. 

However, just from the couple of knots on one of my shirts, I do agree that patches are conversations starters with scouts. 

I have no problem with adults who shirts and jackets weighted down with knots, patches and other regalia. It's part of the fun. I even met a one legged SM who had camp brands all over his wooden camping leg.

Barry

20 minutes ago, MattR said:

It was not a matter of luck to be nominated in my troop. It was hard. If you made an early name for yourself of not being helpful, it stuck for a long time. We had fewer OA nominations than Eagles.

This was our troop. And, I think it was because this was how the SM wanted it because some scoutmasters push the scouts to pick everyone eligible. 

22 minutes ago, MattR said:

As a SM the one thing that brought up the best discussions was along the lines of "how did your actions reflect on the scout law?" So, you're helpful and cheerful? Always? Long pause and then good discussion about how hard it really is for everyone.  So, when the scouts nominated OA candidates maybe they went back to those discussions.

Yes, that is what I mean the Scoutmaster's idealism of the program can sway the scouts expectations of other scouts.

24 minutes ago, MattR said:

One more observation. Scouts probably don't connect OA with character as much as we think. As a scout in the 70's, to me, it was more about the ordeal and Indian culture than anything else. For me it was sash and dash. Indian culture was fun but not that big a deal. While I was likely missing something, that's what I remember. I see the same thing now.

I agree, scouts don't connect with character. They find Aims and Methods a language from another planet. They do, however,  connect with brotherhood and as you pointed out, an early name, good or bad sticks for a long time. Young scouts learn quickly which older scouts to approach for help.

But, the problem I see today is a new scout can, and is expected to vote, with the same power as the scout with 3 years experience. Add a SM who wants all the scouts to get a sash and you get a lot of scouts who don't really want to be there.

From the perspective of outside looking in, the Arrowmen in my troop as a youth were big time campers. They were experts. The Arrowmen in the Troop that I was a SM were good campers and backpackers, but their expertise in both the Troop and OA was leadership.

Barry

4 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

It doesn’t “want everyone”, but gives a unit the option to vote all who meet the requirements in. 

If it’s just a matter of meeting the requirements, then why the vote. If getting voted is just a matter of luck, then where is the honor. In our district, 90% of scouts tapped out were no longer active in OA a year later except wearing their sash at COHs.

I apologize for being cynical, but I remember the old days when Arrowmen were held in higher esteem than Eagles.
 

Barry