Eagledad

43 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Do I understand you correctly to be saying that all the millions of scouts that have scouted in gender-integrated programs over the decades did not develop the best character or integrity?

Yes. Each gender grows and matures differently and mixing the genders dilutes the strengths of the program for developing character and integrity.

Barry

12 hours ago, Ojoman said:

A great decision and parents of girls in the program are much more likely to step up and take leadership positions which has been on the decline for decades. We need both. About the only decision made in the past 5 decades that I 100% agree with. 

Boys and girls are different. That includes developing behavior maturity, or character in the specific case of scouting. Girls and boys have different instinctive behaviors that add to developing maturity in moral and ethical decision-making. So, mixing genders can, and does, interfere with the best potential of developing mature decision makers of integrity. For the best development of character and integrity, some folks would rather use the environment of single gender units, at least up to puberty. 

Barry

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Yes, this I agree with. I'm a cub scouter so haven't had to deal with this yet, but yes, it seems quite wasteful and/or muddling the leadership roles. I'm expecting that this will become obvious as this goes on and someone at National will say "this is dumb, let's just all scout together."

Just curious, is there room in your program for units that want to be single-gender? Is it optional?

Barry

Here is a timely article. Seem a few Native Americans like their heritage. 

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-native-american-activists-fight-save-indigenous-traditions-nationwide-war-wokeness

Barry

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

This whole topic is an Elbonian Bog.

I doubt that there will ever be any clear or satisfactory answers to anyone on either side of the discussion.

Sadly, true. It's political in it's nature. So it's emotional. Not logical.

Barry

1 hour ago, Ojoman said:

You have some good and valid thoughts. The BSA has tried to mirror the GSA who dropped their age/grade requirements. As BSA traditional membership declined they added Tigers to boost numbers but failed to realize retention as the Cub program was now too long. 

 

The Tiger age Daisies scouts in the GSA are a separate program from the older Brownies. That makes managing the groups much easier with age appropriate activities and materials. The BSA doesn't have to quit recruiting First Graders, just develop a separate program. The could even add pre-school age youth. Trying to plan a Pack Meeting that is fun for both toddlers and near preteen scouts is very challenging.

Barry

I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership.

My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes  the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership.

I can go on and on of how changes perpetuated membership decline. But, I will mention just one for now what I believe is near the top of the changes that pushed the membership decline; adding Tigers to the Cub program. This is a complex issue, but in short, Tigers forced adult burnout in the program it made the program so long. A few numbers that I gathered 25 years ago was that less than 25% of families who joined the BSA as Tigers joined a Troop five years later. The most devastating statistic is that 50% of Webelos crossed over to the Troop. That is a huge number. And when I researched why families dropped out after Webelos, the basic answer was the program was boring. A little more research and I found that most Webelos leaders were burned out and didn't provide a fun program. The troop program is completely different and would most likely boost scouts toward fun  again, but once a family wants out, it's hard to change their minds.

If I were put in charge of National, I would change many parts of the program, mostly back to the what made the program successful, but I would start by making the Cub program a 4 year program, maybe even 3.5 years, to starve out adult burnout.

Barry

On 1/25/2024 at 1:48 PM, Jameson76 said:

Try to focus on activities and adventure.  Last year, 2023, we did Trip to beach and national seashore island, backpacking in mountain, wide game, putt putt tourney, lock-in, summer camp, trip to State Park and gorge and waterfalls, boating and tubing, kayaking, fishing weekend at mt lake, hiking and exploring mountains with AOL visit.  All requested and run by Scouts

 

Yep, we grew from 15 scouts to 100 in five years and I'm convinced it was because of our adventure program. 

Barry

My experience is older scouts are stubborn about change. Much easier to kind of let them keep their old habits while starting change with the new scouts. It takes a little creativity, but can be done.

Barry

When women were brought in as Troop leaders, I remember the sudden fear of axes in wood tool’s training. Many commented that saws would be their troops go to tool. I reminded them that the saw caused more trips to the emergency room than any other wood tool in scouting. 

One of the things I loved about scouting was the teaching of using tools properly and safely. I remember well how to use the hammer and saw properly at my first Cub Scout Den meeting at the age of six. From the simple poncho to mighty axe, a few simple instructions and some practice turns 12 year old middle schoolers into experts. And I passed along many  of those skills onto my scouts.

As I explained to timid troop leaders in woods tools training, fear is contagious and is extinguished with training. Then I trained them to use both the axe and saw safely.

Barry

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

There it is.  Dr. Bourke and company not withstanding, it is up to THE PARENTS, and everyone else to see that what is RIGHT happens.  The Guidelines are just that, GUIDELINES.   If the people who WATCH and SEE don't speak up, don't say something, the GUIDELINES mean zilch.  

Yep. If parents are waiting for more safety policies, I can't imagine what they would be other than reporting the incidents at higher levels so they don't get covered up. We had a lot of discussions here about safety improvements and nothing significant was brought up, mostly because BSA policies are pretty good. Funny, you don't hear parents being worried about schools when sexual abuse is report every week in the news.

I will say I have observed parents of units hesitating to act on issues of adults making bad decisions. Not just abuses, but issues where adults need correction. I think it's because they don' t want to get involved being a bad guy. I have watched these things ignored mainly because nobody will act. It is concerning and I spoke about it often adults in training. Leaders need to stand up and protect scouts from adults making bad discissions.

Barry

3 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

This topic is going to get a lot of mixed comments.  As a starting point, how about a meeting with the boy, parents, and key 3. 

This is a really good suggestion.

When I think back of the several troubled scouts we experienced, the parents were the key to our decisions, successes and failures. Some parents are the cause of the problem and cause further unforeseen complications (drama). Some parents are all-in for helping provide a positive environment to give their son positives role models and experiences of good behavior. It is remarkable to witness the change. A few become great adults.

I taught in adult leadership that scouters HAVE to see themselves only as part of the parents team to develop their kids into adults. You are just a team member, Nothing more. Being a Scoutmaster does not raise your influence higher than the teacher, Sunday school teacher, coach or even the parents themselves. So, if the parents don't want to respect the situation as it is, then you can expect no support, and likely a lot of hassle. 

Start with talking to the parents.

Barry

55 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This is the point that is being made. Well, with the extension that when lack of perfection occurs, we accept that, and move on with delivering the program. What you control is the bar. Set the bar, but at the same time don't let lack of uniform perfection keep scouts out of the program.

Folks always seem to revert to extremes when discussing the uniform.

The uniform is part of scouting, so don’t make less than that. The uniform  gives the youth identity and a tool for developing character. The community responds to the uniform with fondness, respect and support. The uniform is part of the romantic adventure to the image of scouting.

Make the most of it and have fun.

Barry

26 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Absolutely, that's all true.

The question isn't whether you should set high expectations, the question is what you do with those individuals who consistently do not meet those expectations. Do you let it slide or do you kick them out?

Piers and role models set the expectations. In cubs, our den leaders wore the uniform and encouraged unity. In the troop, the PLC set the expectation.

of course it will never be perfect, but the uniform is part of the fun of scouting. Have fun.

Barry

On 10/8/2023 at 6:17 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Great point. I'll add: If the BSA is going to survive, it has to be OK with being every family's 2nd or 3rd favorite activity. I'm a Den Leader and it's not uncommon to see kids arrive 15 minutes late in their soccer or baseball uniform with a bag of food from Subway. You'll never hear me make a peep about their timing or appearance. I'm just glad they made it. 

 

My high school teacher son said his experience of low quality schools to high quality schools come down to expectation from the faculty. My experience as a scout leader from cubs to council was the same. Scouts will make an effort if they are appreciated for it. You are not giving the scouts the opportunity to shine. Even a scout shirt and football pants shows willingness to show their pride of being a scout.

Barry

15 hours ago, VinceABQ said:

I'm an Counselor for E Prep. 

Rqmt 7a is easily met by participation in a school fire or shooter drill.   But what do I do with a home schooled boy?   I tried to connect to our county E Dept, they said they were going to do a drill now (Balloon Fiesta) but never got back to me, even when I emailed them in advance.  I'm looking for a way to meet the rqmt that doesn't rely of the county govt, got any suggestions?

Contact me at HH-Co7@comcast.net

Vince, Albuquerque

Our town use to include the scouts in emergency prep drills, but then liability became an issue for a real emergency. Tornadoes are common around here. Leaving youth out of the process is safer and less risky for the community.

Barry

On a personal note, Albuquerque is home to me. I lived near the Sandia mountains as a youth. 

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

My hope for my cubs is that they cross over ready to pitch a tent, pack their gear, read a map, and cook for their patrol, and find their pride in that they can do it themselves. Perhaps sloppily and inefficiently. But knowing from doing what it means to be prepared.

This is my hands-on contribution to the future of the BSA. 

But not to ready. The largest group of first year scouts that quit our troop in 6 months had experience camping every month during webelos. They were simply bored. Part of the adventure of being in a troop is learning scout skills from other scouts. A few scouts skills to get them wanting more is ok, but cubs with first class experience tend to leave because the troop program doesn’t live up to the hype.

I used to teach webelos leaders that we would rather have scouts with no outdoors experience who are confident standing in front of groups and mingling with older scouts than trained campers. Our scouts can teach anyone to camp, but the shy scout or camping expert are much harder to mix in the program because they tend to want adult guidance to make them comfortable.

Barry

4 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Well, not just boys, but more importantly - it's not the scout socks, belt, and pants that are so distinctive. It's the necker, the woggle, and the shirt with badges that's so recognizable.

You can drop a good number of official BSA uniform items before anyone not in the BSA even notices, and popcorn selling has also taught me that not even former (and sometimes even current 🤦🏼‍♀️) scouts can always tell a BSA uniform from a GSUSA uniform. 

When I was a scout, our uniform consisted entirely of the shirt and the necker with woggle. No alternates, not pants or socks or hats or multiple "classes" or uniforms. (Still have no idea what that actually means.) BSA uniform requirements are off the chain - inspection sheets? Really? For 5, 6, 7, 8-year-olds?

I respect what you are saying, but we will have to agree to disagree.

Barry

16 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I agree. When my kids were in costs were a lot less but even so the pack made their own neckerchiefs with a silk screen design. These days with new uniform parts for each grade/rank in cubs it is recidulous! Also, the shear number of pins and badges for cubs is out of control. This all adds to the costs of the program. Some units have a Tshirt as a class B uniform which is GREAT. It promotes the pack and their location/chartered partner. We need more of that. A sharp tshirt is something the kids may wear to school or other activities and can be a recruiting tool. Anything that keeps kids and families away from the program is a negative. The benefits of membership and participation are too important. The units should set their own standards and as long as it isn't sloppy I'm in favor. 

I disagree. Almost anyone in the world can identify a Boy Scout uniform. It represents character and integrity. Even after the Girl Scouts did away from their traditional uniform, it was still the uniform used in movies because it identifies with the organization worldwide. I understand that the GSUSA is moving back toward that uniform.

Barry

3 hours ago, SSScout said:

"It depends"

Some years ago,  a fellow Commisher and I helped a local church (of un-named faith)  start a Scout Troop.  It was unabashedly a part of their "Sunday School".  

It lasted exactly three years and then decomposed....   The unofficial evidence was the religious leaders were too heavy handed in their goal of "conversion"....

Unfortunately, I've seen many heavy handed non-religious adult troops decompose. Sadly, one does not have to be religious to be zealot.

Barry

Anyone heard of LDS troops? There are a lot of COs that require church membership because the units are part of their youth program. I know of one Troop that only registered home schoolers because the Troop was the socializing part of their program.

I think it's a benefit for the BSA that Scouting can be a tool for programs that need an organize youth program. We are likely to see more of it since girls can be member now.

Barry

I remember someone from National in the early 90's saying the majority of scout abuse complaints were filed against the MB Counselors. This might be an approach to addressing that issue.

Barry

2 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL.  This is a rare occurrence.  They keep observing the trends, but usually take no action to correct.  They talk a good game about how to fix something, often coming up with good ideas, but hardly ever implement their fix.  This is very annoying, but, in our Troop culture, the adults know not to step in and do it for them.

Yes, true. But often the adults expect action quicker than the scouts maturity allows. They just go a little slower because they don't yet have the life skills of acting on discovery. Or the scouts may not yet feel enabled to act freely. That happens a lot and youth learning to trust adults takes a while. Adults can say it all day long, but it's their actions that take to the scouts.

Mentoring is the skill of guiding the mentored to discover the problem and create and action. Those kinds of mentoring skills take a lot of practice and risks because human nature doesn't change until annoyance drives us to make the effort to change. But, sometimes the mentor has to cross the line to know the limits of mentoring discovery and change to pushing so hard that the mentored quit having fun and would rather stay home to play video games. 

Scouting for adults in a "scout run" program is a lot harder than in a "adult run" program because the adults in the scout run program mentor each scout individually. Where as adults in the adult run program guide, coach, and mentor by groups, leaving out individual decision making. For example. Scouts in an adult run troop tend to all dress exactly alike because that is no tolerance for individual choices in wearing the uniform. Adults in adult run troops tend to measure their program by how the scouts behave and look as a group.

On the other hand, the adults in the scout run program want scouts to discover their the value traits that lead to their choices by providing a safe environment where scouts aren't intimidated to make choices based from their personal values. We humans don't feel motivated to change our values until we find ourselves annoyed by our bad choices. The adults have to let the scouts make choices that end up as an annoyance to them. The parent in us adults struggle to watch scouts screw up.

Scout run troops eventually function better and with higher maturity than adult run troops because the scouts have disciplined themselves to serve each other, which results in fun program with great leadership. Youth run troops tend to have older scouts and have more fun. The scouts have learned and practiced the skills of planning fun activities and following through to make them happen. That takes a while, but when it happens, the adults struggle to keep up.

Barry

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although the guidelines are very loose for SM conferences, I see what you propose as out of place.

So what happens when you find out Johnny does not know a skill, but says he did it once and got it signed off?  If you aren't observing the instruction and evaluations, how do you know the instructors and evaluators are teaching correctly?

Good question. The short answer is that the boys perform enough of these skills in their normal fun everyday routine activities to demonstrate the troop average level of skill proficiency.  Now, obviously including exercises in activities that require these is skills can be challenging. But, just one activity will demonstrate many skills from tying knots to leadership, and even living the Scout Law. Program activities provide the senior leaders and adults a wide view of troops skills proficiency. Skills proficiency, or lack there of, should be obvious to everyone. The program is maturing when the scouts observe trends of deficiencies and act to correct them.

Also, a scout should have more than one conference, or intimate conversation, with the adult leadership before a BOR. So, many in fact, the scout doesn't even know that their casual conversation about the family gave the adult some insight to  the scouts knowledge and experience in the troop program. These discussions can occur in the car during the drive to camp, or while backpacking to camp. A few minutes at a gas stop while drinking a coke. Scouts love to talk about themselves. Theoretically the scout could get his conference signed off during many of those discussions. The SM or adults should already know the answers to the questions in the conference the scout requested for sign off.

A program that operates this way is a lot of fun for the both the adults and scouts because the constant maturing is rewarding. Even parents notice it.

Barry