Eagledad

Very Typical. First year scouts are the most challenging scouts because they are going through that shift from adult run to boy run. While the idea of boy run is exciting at first, it becomes challenging and scary. Scary because now they realize the older scouts are truly in control of their survival. Challenging because they find that the older scouts are truly in control of their fun. The way through this is to have the first line of control be the TG and second line the TG Advisor who gives a lot of SM Conferences or advises the SM to give a conference. The new scout must learn that it is a team effort. Each member of the team has a role and the leaders role is to delegate. His role is to learn from the task he is delegated. But also a benefit of being on the team is giving ideas for having more fun. Each scout should be able to express his ideas and dreams to improve the program. The troop may not take up the ideas, but the scouts should see how the system will fairly give him a chance.By the way the roster is one of the best ways for a new scout to understand fairness of each scout on the team. Not that the older scouts can be unfair, but that is a different problem and a different conference. By the way the roster is one of the best ways for a new scout to understand fairness of delegating. The first six months is the most critical for new scouts and the TG and Adviser have to really work to get them up to speed. This is why in my experience the best TGs are 15 or older. I know that is impossible in many troops, but that should be the goal because older scouts are in it more to serve then to just get another requirement signed off. I never had a good 14 year old TG and I never had a bad 16 TG. As for some scouts are just going to quit, I agree. I had a whole patrol of new scouts who decided that being led by other boys was not for them and they left, after six months. This is one of those areas for adults that takes practice. Don''t just talk about the problem, try to come up with a different approach for the next group. BArry

>>I''''m getting a little crispy around the edges. Some of the older boys have asked me to be their Ventureing advisor and I''''m thinking of doing that to stay involved. And like I said, it could be a year or more. I''''ve dropped the hintbut haven''''t seen any bites yet.

Have you not been called yet? When I was SM, I got a call just about every week asking me to head up this or help run that, but my response was always "check back when I give up SM". I fully planned to help with our troop with our new SM, but he wanted me to sit back a little to give him time to grow. I was getting calls the night I handed over my SM badge and I never skipped a beat. I must say that working with NYLT was very rewarding. Staffing Wood Badge has its rewards as well. You can make a really big difference teaching adults everything you learned. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Generally, filing a suit involves finding a lawyer to take your case. Fortunately, most lawyers know enough about the law to not waste 2 minutes thinking about suing a volunteer Boy Scout leader carrying out his duties, no matter how ballistic the mom gets or how loud she screams.

My gosh, I might as well be sitting between my wife and daughter during the Love Story movie. OK Beavah, I like your comment about adults meeting once in a while for donuts to talk scouting, or something like that. I hadn't thought of that, but we looked for opportunities to meet at a local pub to talk scouting. We didn't do donuts because they are fattening. Barry

Gonzo posted the list to provoke a positive discussion for traits of a successful troop program. He didnt know BW or his reputation. Im am sure BW feels honored to have something he created so long ago used to motivate a discussion. I think most of us would like to be remembered the same way long after we are gone. No doubt BW has been smiling through the whole discussion. Barry

>>While the first statement is often true for kids who have ADHD (many of them no longer need any sort of medication after puberty), the second is more typical for kids suffering from Autism Spectrum Disorders like Asperger's. Puberty makes things worse, not better.

Not meaning any offense OGE, but I kind of feel like your statement is the most emotional of all the post. While there may have been a couple opinions given of BW, they were usually followed by logical comparisons between two different list, not two different people. In fact the whole discussion has pretty much been a positive discussion on elements of a successful troop. I dont think the discussion would have changed much if Kudu had created the list instead of BW. OK, bad example. Lets say if I had created the list. I think we've had a good discussion thought might encourage some to understand the elements of a successful program. If it would make you feel better, I guess we could rename Bob Whites list to Brand X. Barry

Boy Lisa, Ive been there and done that several times and Im not sure how to respond to help you feel better. When my two sons and I look back and talk about our experiences with these scouts, my sons dont have much bad to say about their experiences with them. In fact more funny stories about them are told then anything. Im trying to say your troop will survive and everyone will grow from the experience. But I do understand the whole situation and there really isnt much that can change the minds of adults. Usually there are a couple of adults who will stand with the scout and it appears you are one of them. It needs to be said that learning to work with such people is a good growing experience for scouts, and even adults. No different then learning to work with a blind, deaf or crippled scouts. We had them also. The problem is a positive attitude needs to be spread to the scouts. Adults are the role models and scouts read adults very well. If the adults dont like a scout, the boys will not like the scout. If the adults take in the scout because that is the right thing to do, the scouts will accept and duplicate that as well. That doesnt mean it will be easy. I often felt for Patrol Leaders who tried hard to include these scouts into a normal patrol routine, but lack the skills required to deal with their behavoirs. The SM has to spend a lot of time with the PL to let him know that he is doing a good job no matter how frustrating it seems. The Scouts cannot feel they are alone in dealing with these scouts. There has to be some kind of actions taken to help the troop. These scouts wear out adult staffs very fast, especially at summer camp. They tend to require four times the adult attention of normal scouts. You might just have to find adults who are willing to take on the responsibility of working with the scout personally. Let me just say that in most cases, these scouts got better after puberty. Natures chemical change is amazing to watch. One last note, we have had several difficult scouts and we developed a reputation in the district as accepting of them. Probably why we got so many in the first place. However, I did ask the parents of one scout to take him out of the troop. This scout was so severally dysfunctional that we were afraid he would get hurt. It was not unusual for that scout to just walk off, even in the middle of the night. I wish all of you the best on this. I must say that Ive learned from all your post that you have a real scouting heart. I think you can start trusting that. Barry

Do everything scoutldr said now. If these are emty threats, generally they will back down when when they learned that that the Council and district are invovled. If there really is a problem, you want to get it away from the unit and into the hands of the folks who deal with these things everyday. Contact the Scout Executive, District Committee Chairman, the District Commissioner and COR now. And try to keep the number of folks in the unit who have to know about this to a need to know basis. Many times the rumors can do far more damage then the situation itself. Barry

>>I have received a message asking me to edit the following statement I made in a prior post:

>>Even though it is not over! I asked him this week if he thought about working at Philmont or Double H next summer, he said yes he had, but it sounds like he may try to work at Northern Tier instead, he loves Minnesota and the BWCA.

>>Now tell me ! Boy run units ...is that the way to go ? ...jambo

Gwd-scouter is right. It saves the adults from being the bad guys and know it alls. The first time I gave it to our PLC was when they planned a weekend using Jet-skis. That was about the time I started showing scouts the Scoutmaster and Committee Handbooks so that they could see why we did anything the way we did. I gave every new PLC a copy of the Aims and Methods so that they saw why a troop functions the way it does and where the scouts could add their own dreams, visions and ideas to make it more fun. In fact, I challenged each PLC that if I couldn't justify any troop activity did toward the three Aims, they could take it out of the program. At first the uniforms took a lot of shot but the Boy Scout Handbook and ability to explain its value save me there. Giving the PLC that challenge forced me to become more accountible for knowing, or learning how every piece of the program works. I guess you could say it help the scouts understand that there was method behind the madness. Or a game with a purpose I guess. I've said it here before, adults could simplify their lives if they would just use the SPL and PL handbooks along side the scouts because the program is laid out pretty well in those two simple easy to read books. Then there would be no mystery about the program for the scouts or adults. Everyone works together with a common guide book and a common goal. Great discussion. Barry

>> EagleDad, it had never occurred to me to hand over the G2SS to our PLC and let THEM look up what they can and cannot do within the BSA guidelines.

My vision was idealistic. My experiences "in the trenches" are real. I usually make it a habit to not pass along idealistic rantings. I am and engineer by trade and we tend toward proven logic. Developing a true boy run program held within the limits of the Aims and Methods but with the goals of helping boys develop the skills to change themselves into men of character is not easy for adults. The idea that a scout can think for himself takes practice for both the scouts and the adults. Think about it, most adults simply don't trust kids. That takes practice. I am the first to say that I failed a lot more then I succeeded. But I took those failures and developed the style scouting that tended toward a successful boy run program. I'm not the only one here who expresses idealistic approaches from successful experiences. All I ask is that everyone have and open mind so that they can try different approaches in their program. By the way, in my passion to work with boys in scouting, I did a lot of reading and research that led me toward the type of program and experiences I pass along here. Just about all the resources I read came from the BSA and Baden Powell's writings. There is plenty of help to become better leaders for anyone who seeks it. Barry

>>Boys who join , don't want or don't have the patience, to see how popular elected SPL is fumbling with the agenda. A boy does not join for CITIZENSHIP, or CHARACTER building....but to have fun , excitement ,adventure, games, fellowship, challenging activities, learn scout skills , and etc.

>>there is no reason one needs to destroy any organic detritus (however small and insignificant that amount may seem to us); finally, while lightweight, it looks unwieldy compared to a collapsing stove.

>>Eagle dad,thinks that running a Troop with 14 year boy, is what scouting is all about...I think he is mistaken. Then all of us experienced adults should sit back in our rocking chairs, and watch scouting program fall apart, or at best develop into a mediocre organization competing in numbers, so to get more finances.

>>So Beavah, do you tell the PLC that Troops don't have the authority to set their own uniform policy, other than for hats and neckerchiefs? Or do you expect them to figure that out on their own? Or do you just not care about that BSA policy? If the last, then what other BSA policies do you let your Troop ignore?

>>There were three brothers in my Troop who always said "(Fill in ) sucks". No big deal. Sounds like this lady was a little too stiff to be working with young men.

If our scouts had the skill, they usually did the teaching even when adults where the students. But I think the best place I saw where adults were a little taken back by youth instructors was our Woods Tools and Totn Chit class. Every March campout, our troop gives the class to both the new scouts and adults. Even if the adults are parents but not leaders, they are asked to attend the class. That is where I heard the most talk from the adults about being instructed by boys. Always a very positive experience for everyone and a great initiation into the boy run program, which is why I ask parents to participate. I once had a dad who was also an eagle question the youth instructors technique for sharpening knives. I told we were always open to corrections and improvements and for him to go look it up in the Scout Handbook. He came back very embarrassed that he had always been doing it wrong. He was very impressed by the scouts. While I was the Council JLT Chairman, I always had the JLTC youth instructors teach the new adults coming into the program. Again to get the adults to trust the scouts and learn who was truly the leaders of the program. It works very well and I find adults enjoy watching scouts taking charge. Great question. Barry

Bob White was by far the most controversial contributor Ive ever seen in a Scouting forum. His method of persuasion was hammering his doubters into submission. He was a company man to say the least, but he loved Scouting. While he and I didnt agree on many aspects of the scouting program, he knew how to build a successful program. Personally I think we need to first come up with a general description of success. Bob White says some good things, but his list is way to long and it leaves out many troops I consider successful. I like Beavahs list because it pretty much includes most traits Ive seen in most successful troops. From my perspective, a lot of folks say scouting is for the boys, but I think scouting is an adult program to develop boys into citizens of character and leaders of integrity. For an adult program to meet those goals, you have to start with good adults. Barry

>>I heard this once ... The job of the Scoutmaster is to set back in his rocking chair and observe what is going on. If he has to get up then the youth leaders are not doing their job.

I enjoy knots also. My only job during the chariot race at camporee was to inspect and approve everyones elses knots. But holy cow, 152 knots? That is amazing. Barry