Eagledad

Sounds like a great trip to me. I will push that idea around here. Oh, one other idea our troop has done is a Scuba trip in Cozumel. A lot of scuba shops have cheap group trips and if you plan far enough a head, you can get good rates on airfare. Barry

Yes, you are right. We use to stay on a houseboat in my college days and tow a skiboat along with us. I didn't know if that was how this High adventure worked. It sounds like great fun. Barry

Houseboating is a new one for me, whats that all about? Can they waterski? Barry

High Adventure isn't just a summer thing, someone needs to start planning a snow skiing and cross country skiing trip. Beary

Are you the dog or the tail? Our pack and troop did what was best for the unit at the time. If we needed money for the boys, we raised money for the boys. If we had time to support the Council, then we did that. But it was a character building experience either way. In the first 10 years of our troop, we went to our local camp twice, once the first year we started the troop and once again 6 years later. It wasnt that good a camp for our program, so we attented better ones. But we also werent the kind of troop that let the Quality Unit Award list drive our program either. Barry

>>A district should not be teaching a TLT-like course and a Council should only offer NYLT as a follow on to TLT. Any other course will not fit with well leadership-wise with TLT and send a confusing message to the scouts.

>>The only thing I suggest when doing something like this is making sure the Scoutmasters are involved and have their past senior leadership help lead the course,

>>I'm in Mike F's corner on this one. This "boys will be boys" until someone gets hurt is the wrong way to go. If the behavior is wrong, then don't allow it.

>>And you'd like to think that you just need to make sure the boys understand things and you'll be ok, but you forget that many times it must go from the adult leader to the scout to the parent,>> No, I didnt forget that, we just didnt do it that way. The way I looked at it was would you call your 25 year old sons boss to find out more details about his company benefits? I directed our program to steer the scouts to be the experts of their program, not the adults. I wanted the scouts to learn how to become self dependent. That is why I tried not to let the program get too far away from what was in the Scouts handbooks. If a parent wants to know something, they learned pretty quickly that we expected them to ask their son. If their son didnt give the answer they wanted to hear, we expected their son to contact their patrol leader or SPL or whoever was the expert of their question. If after all that they still needed more information, then the adults were the last step in that process, but it was rare that questions reached an adult. I felt the scouts should become the expert of their program, whether that is advancement, scouts skills or uniforms. I overheard more than once scouts discussing a question and saying we better look first in the book first before we ask the scoutmaster because he is going to tell us to look there first. I personally felt that was a good habit for them to learn. The PLC also had a copy of the G2SS so that they could determine if their activities were approved by the BSA. It was rare that we had to say something. I found that our troop program tended to get more complicated when the adults added more great ideas like a cool new program to track scout advancement. When our new Advancement Chair inherited the previous chairs nightmare monster tracking system, I knew that the best most simple system comes from scouts. I have a story to follow this, our scouts teach the Totn Chit or Woods Tools class to all new scouts and adult leaders when they first join. No adults are involved in the training. A new ASM approached me after that training and said he felt the scout taught the knife sharpening technique incorrectly. I asked him to get a Boy Scout Handbook and check it against the book because that is where the scout is suppose to be teaching from. He came back with a big happy smile and admitted the scout trained him correctly. What he found was the books have changed since he was a scout. The Scout was the expert. By the way, we had this same attitude with MBs. Our Troop did some of the district training for MB counselors and we taught them to work strictly from the books and to encourage the scout to become experts from that book. I know this really comes down to different philosophies toward scout growth. I dont believe mine is the best, it actually is what I developed over the years of what worked and didnt work. But it is one style that did work. I will say we did have a Troop Parents Guide that was really more designed for visiting Webelos parents that may have some policies in writing, I dont remember. But it was intended and used for marketing, not troop guidelines. It may have stated a more detail uniform policy, I honestly dont remember, but that is not how we worked with the scouts. The whole intent of the guide was to give the parents something to compare with other troop programs. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Why are you describing the uniform when all the boys only need to do is look at their Boy Scout Handbook. Why rewrite what the BSA has already stated. I think you will find it to be about the same and it is a lot easier for the Scoutmaster to justify using the BSA policies instead of his own. TROOP UNIFORM: Refer To Scout Handbook. If they want to modify the BSA policies, well then that is something different and the scoutmaster can work with them on that if needed, However, I always start by asking if their changes are within the Scout Law and Oath. That is a tough question for them on uniforming. As for the uniforming to and from camp, Why? I mean once the scouts get to camp, they get dirty and sweaty setting up camp, so why the need? My point is not to suggest you shouldnt uniform while traveling, but have a good understandable justification that scouts can understand and that doesnt sound like something the adults just want. You are working with young adults here, so work with them like adults. I had a policy with all my PLCs that they could change any rule or policy (BSA or other) if I could not justify how they applied to the good of building character, citizenship and service to others. The only uniform rule I asked the PLC to consider over the Handbook was full uniform while traveling because we found that store and restaurant operators get very nervous with 50 teenage boys running around. The uniform conects the store clerks which adults who are responsible for them. When I proposed that to the PLC, not only did they agree, but the justification was also easy for them to explain to the other scouts. My point is give good explanations for all your policies and rules that the scouts understand and agree. And dont make your job harder by duplicating what the BSA has already done. You certainly shouldnt be describing a Class A or B uniform when the book already does that. If your concern is explaining the uniform to the parents, suggest they ask their sons, which is more practice in reading the book. By the way, the Handbook calls it a dress uniform and field uniform. Make the scouts read their book. Personally the only policies I think you need to add over the Scout Handbook are B, E and F. I would likely just tak F onto the "TROOP UNIFORM:" LIne. Barry

This is an interesting question, a very good question. I look back on those moments with those few scouts and all I can answer is patience and separation. Whether it was a scout who clearly was trying to get my goat or just one of those unintentionally annoying scouts; patience and separation is what saved me, or would would have saved me if I could go back in time. By the way, its not just scouts. My daughter Barry

Guidelines and Policies can be good or bad, but they are just about always a restriction of freedom. I understand the idea of wanting printed guidelines, especially for the new families. The problem I learned through time is that nothing remains constant. In most cases, guidelines, policies, rules and so forth were put in writing to prevent repeating a negative experience. However, we find later down the road that they also in turn are restrictions of freedoms that can hold back the program. For example: somehow an immature young first class scout is elected SPL and the troop program suffers for six months. The reaction is the new policy that all SPLs have the minimum rank of Star or life, thus keeping mature scouts in the position. Then in the not to distant future a once in a lifetime natural super leader who also hates advancement finds he cant run for SPL. No logical reason why he shouldnt run for SPL because he certainly is the most qualified scout you have had in years. Yet, there is that policy. I have the shirt, believe me and the scars of a scout so frustrated by the system that he quit. The risk of policies, rules, and such are that while they may protect the program from past negative experiences, they also can restrict future growth. Discipline is the same way; just soon as the troop comes up with a great three times and you are out policy, you find some scouts should have had only one or two strikes while others needed four. Even worse is that the PLC is held to their own policy in writing. Those of us who have done this a while understand that experience develops wisdom and wisdom changes everything in how to handle future events. Or more important, the opportunities to grow from handling future events. Do you really want to restrict the growth of wisdom? And, I dont trust those leaders who say we are only led by the scout law either or similar philosophical guidence. I have found many of these idealistic theorists to be the most rigid in unwritten laws. Sometimes the danger isn't what is in written, but what is highly suggested by the intimidating Scoutmaster. Is it so hard to ask the scouts to read their handbooks and develop their habits accordingly to see where they go? I cant say guidelines arent good because I find newer units with lesser experienced adults and scouts need some temporary guidelines to hold back confusion and chaos until they have the confidence to handle more difficult situations. I remember our PLC created a rule that scouts had to write reports on the scout laws they broke when they were called down for discipline. At the time that was the crutch they needed to hold scouts accountable. But that change about a year later as they got better at controlling misbehavior on the spot. They grew and matured and didnt need the crutch anymore..I could have forced it to happen, but it would in the long run take them longer to understand. Adults are the same as you know, it was the adults who set the rule of minimum Star rank for the SPL. Silly us, we sure learn the hard way on that one. Weve gotten to know you and your program from your post. I think you are more than a reasonable leader with a good intuition for the program and it would be condescending to give a flat ya or nay to your question. We all have to growth to our best potental. You know better what your program needs to maintain growth and maturity. But I will suggest that if you decide that some guidelines need to be put in writing, then also add a line or two that reads something like" Nothing is concrete. Scouting is a program where everyone is expected to grow and mature from their experiences. All policies are very subject to change so that we not restrict our continued growth". I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>*Character is the courage to stop others before they hurt others.* It is also the courage to act( EVEN THOUGH NOT POPULAR) to stop somebody to CONTINUE harming others. Not just saying: " We'll let it go this time, but next time there's trouble"

>>Now, if this really is a case of a dingbat teenager, then by responding strongly and reassuring the other boys and parents that yeh take stuff like this seriously, yeh have credibility as adult leaders. Then if yeh decide to let the boy come back to da program under certain conditions they will trust you and believe in you. You might save the lad's scouting career.>The boy may not have meant any harm, but that doesn't matter. Harm was done, actions were innapropriate and rules were broken as well as somebody hurt. It's time to be held accountable.

>> Finally - if an employer ever does not want me due to something there, I probably do not want to work for them either.

>>Barry, that may be the way *you* interpret the DADT of the BSA, but others certainly interpret it differently. And the military version of DADT doesn't say that at all.

>>And haven't many said that the BSA policy is also really a DADT policy? You can stay in as long as no one finds out. As long as you don't tell, as long as no one finds out, as long as you don't get caught, it's ok.

I saw an interview with Charlton Heston talking about filming of the planet of the apes. He said that by the end of filming, he was struck that the actors of the different groups of apes being portrayed tended to hang together during breaks with their specific bred of ape. MY own personal opinion is that identifying ourselves with a group is an instinctive trait of survival. Safety in numbers so to speak, so the color shirt thing doesnt surprise me. But I think the adults react the same just as Charlton Heston observed. I am a big believer that the primary role models for youths should be the same gender because watching others during the years up to puberty is how all our behavior is learned. I think the Scoutmasters should be males in boy scouts and females in girl scouts. However, when there isnt a good leader of the same gender, then it is better to have a good leader of the opposite gender than not have a good leader at all. I also believe a lot is learned having the other gender around as well so the youth learn the appropriate behavior of working together, but not always. Its OK for the guys or gals to have a weekend to themselves now and then. To me, there is a difference between "Moms not invited" and "No Women Allowed". Barry

>>but he has some organizational issues

>>She thought a second ... but I don't think she buys it ... didn't expect her to. Ok... I tried ...

>>From other posts - I think your son is in middle school. Keep in mind, too, that middle school boys are a flighty lot who seem to have GREAT fear of being publicly identified as boy scouts.

How old is your son? Barry

>>A SM is to provide vision, while coaching and mentoring.

>>I'm thinking that with this little glimpse of boy-led, that just about any troop could be boy-led if given the chance. Stosh>> Of course, but it takes time to train the adults. (LOL) Im glad you have favorable comments towards using an SPL. Our council ran our JLTC (Before NYLT) much the same way when I was The Council JLT Chair. Between 30 to 40 scouts were gathered in a room the first night and asked to create four patrols and select their Patrol Leader, SPL and troop officers. None of the staff participated and it usually took about 15 minutes. The scouts did not know that they would do this before the course, so 15 always impressed me. The reason 30 to 40 scouts who dont know each other can do this is because they are trained and experienced in the process and functions of a BSA troop. They may not realize it until they are pushed into it, but they do a good job once push comes to shove. Once the scouts had the patrols established and the SPL selected, the SPL directed to lead a PLC meeting for creating the next days course agenda. From getting up to going to bed, the scouts have full control. The only requirements we give them are 6 classes and thee PLC meetings that have to be scheduled in the day. They had to write a new agenda every night for the four day course. Just as Stosh is pointing out, it is quite exciting to watch. Barry

>> I have seen hundreds of post on the subject of Eagle, but what if there wasn't such a rank. How would scouting be different? Would the BSA still exist? Would the program be better? What are your thoughts?>Fundamentally, I don't think it is so much what BSA did wrong or right, but what they did not do.