Eagledad

We have had the troop adults cook the Saturday night meal for everyone. But, you could also do training for swimming, rappelling, boating and so forth. Fun stuff that would pull all the adults into the same group. Barry

Yes, stated very elegantly. We want the scouts to see who they are through their actions and decisions in scouting activates. Then compare their character to the character they want to have and make a purposeful choices to develop habits of that character. Parents do it all the time. Just about every parent can give examples of how the experiences of raising their first kid motivated them to raise their other kids differently. That is scouting. The struggle is getting adults to see that noble mission. Thanks again qwazse. Barry

Well this is just off the top of my head, but unity comes best from stressful situations that require the team to function together. OA Ordeals use to be pretty good at that. Barry

I didn't say no adult association. Every unit is different with the different accumulated gifts of the participants. As you said, the methods are not discrete functions. But, I believe all things being equal. the experience of the Patrol Method has more influence for growth than adult association. Especially with mature scouts. My style was the passive approach of mentoring. I found that for us, scouts grew faster when they had to search for relief from the stress of making decisions. The mentors were in the shadows waiting. Barry

I agree the culture of parents today is more challenging. I'm not sure that it is a nomadic thing, but it certainly is there. Still, even the worst helicopter parents joined Cub Scouts because the program's activities are attractive. The problem isn't the activities, it's the overbearing weight of program management. Barry

I'm talking about the bigger picture of the mission of developing character. Growth is based on the experience of making decisions, not watching role models. Role models are reinforcement of what is learned from the Patrol Method experience. Barry

And who determines a persons BAD character? That is the what MattR is talking about. Yes, scouting builds character, but how. And while I agree, role models of good character contribute to building good character, a good Patrol Method experience is the main driver of growth, even among role models of bad character. Patrol Method forces the scout to make decisions for other scouts that reflects their character back at them. Now, try to explain how that works to a new parent. And really I should say mothers, because fathers more often accept the fun of the outdoors program without getting caught up in that complexity of the character thing. Mothers, most of the time, are less attracted to the shiny object of fun (except for the Eagle), so they spend time analyzing (being skeptical) character development. Moms forced me to understand how the program worked toward character. Dads forced me to sit and enjoy the coffee. Barry

I can see that Matt. But, I believe the how of the vision has always been a challenge for scouting. How can a program build character. Luckily, the fun part (outdoors and camping) are the over riding attraction. I learned over the years, that the vast majority of scouts join the program because their' parents motivated them to join. And, 99 percent of them started in cubs. My issue with the BSA is that they are driving youth away because the cub program burns out the adults. Last I checked, around 50 percent of Webelos don't crossover into a troop after graduating from the pack. That doesn't include the younger cub age dropouts or the first year scouts who joined but never went to a troop meeting. I believe that at least 80% of those youth left because of their parents. Parents didn't push them to leave, but they didn't encourage them to stay either. What I'm saying is I don't think the nomadic culture is a problem today, I think yesterdays overburdened Cub program steels the illusion of fun from the adult perspective and they loose any enthusiasm of it for their kids. I got this from interviewing hundreds of adults. Barry

I'm kind of lost in this thread, are posters here suggesting that the BSA needs to mold itself to each individual post-modern nomad youth to have a successful appeal? What then is THE goal, THE vision, THE mission? My high school teacher son says he learned how to approach his students (post-modern nomads?) from his scouting experiences 20 years ago. Help make this clearer for me. Barry

Yes, it is difficult. The struggle even for commissioners is knowing when to give unit leaders some rope to make their program. We had a very good commissioner with a lot of experience, but he wasn't as boy run as I wanted the our program, so we had some difficult discussions. However, he always let me try my ideas to see how they worked out. Every leader has a different vision and style, so the commissioner has to have some patience. to know when to guide, or just watch. Commissioners need to be good at understanding the program and the BSA Guidelines for running the program. Units get in trouble when they make up their own rules and guidelines, so the commissioners need to inform and correct to keep units within boundaries. Our commissioner shined with committee and their functions. His Scoutmaster experience gave him the knowledge to know how to balance the program for, and with, the Scoutmaster. I believe success with commissioners starts with a good District Commissioner because they are the teachers and mentors of the commissioners. Start with that person, the rest will follow. It's nice to hear about units who get lucky with getting good commissioners, but we want to hear the bragging of districts with a good commissioner corp. Barry

Thanks I ran into one of my Eagle scouts a few years ago. He had two kids by that time. I don't remember how we got on the subject, but he told me that one of my SM Minutes made a big difference in life and probably why he got his Eagle. The story I told was similar to this one, a hero that made a difference. I learned over the years that boys dream of being hero's. I don't know if girls have the same dreams because I don't remember my daughter running around pretending to be hero so much as she pretended to be the princess. I taught in the adult courses that the better troops are the ones where scouts have the freedom to live their dreams. I can't say that my Eagle scout was trying to be a hero, but he says the hero was part of his motivation. Not only should we encourage the troop to be a place to live dreams, we should give more examples of heros. Not just military heros, but heros of culture, heros of character and heros of humanity. Boys want to be heros, we can show them how. Thanks again RememberShiff Barry

The program focuses on a source of morality, but beating over the head is dependent on the unit leaders. If that is your experience, then your CO is probably religious and has a higher priority on religion. But, most units, even religious ones, don't beat it over the heads. No, that is living a servant life. Not the same thing. The spirit, god, God, rock, or whatever is the source. That doesn't mean a scout will connect the oath and law to a spiritual life, most don't. The program develops a servant habits, which are habits of a ethical and moral lifestyle. The scout will have to eventually give credit to the source. Why? I would guess 80% of Eagles (80% of adults) are in that very place at age 18.. And, what if the Eagle decides to be an Ashiest after a time? He had the experience, was a great scout and set a good example for other scouts, He just couldn't make the connection to scout spirit and god. By the way, I know several Eagles who turn atheist as adults. Each one told me they wished they could be a leader, but they didn't want to set that kind of example. I find that very much in the Scout Spirit. Barry

Funny thing is membership exclusion is really about adults. I had numerous scouts who either one or both parents where ashiest or gay, but they wanted their kids to make that decision on their own when they had some life's experiences. Scouting was part of the life's experiences they wanted for their kids. When the gay activist started to target the BSA, they found quickly they weren't getting any traction with petitioning gay adults. So, they changed tactics and used gay scouts as their target, which worked. But, it was the adults the program didn't want anyway. A program with the principles of giving youth an experience in developing the habits of morality has to present itself on the bases of morality. Most, if not all, scouters I knew had no trouble with scouts who weren't sure about god experiencing the scout program. It's only activist who turned that around and demonized scouters. But, I don't see god being optional in a moral themed program. Barry

First off, I'm not cutting out text to change the narrative. Seems we need to say that these days. Two questions come to mind with your post qwazse. First, my observation is that parents for 90 percent of the scouts make the choice for the kids to join scouting. So, I'm wondering how fits in your theory. Second, while I can see the idea of a Federation of Scouting happening, I think that is many years down the road. A lot more options for girls than boys at this moment. A good group of visionary professionals could get this ball rolling in the BSA. But, I haven't seen good professionalism from National in the last 30 years. Your idea will have to come from somewhere else. Leaving the discussion kind of back to Eagle1993's perspective. Barry

That's an interesting suggestion. Barry

Hmm, you only have to look at the Canadian Scouts to see how total inclusion will effect the membership numbers. Last I heard was that Canadian Scouts was at 40% to 50% of the organizations membership before going total inclusive 20 years previous. Your post suggest that a total inclusive program would have little effect on the core principles that drive the BSA Vision and Mission. But as others have mentioned, religion is a core principle of the BSA program. Looking at the Canadian Scouts, giving up on some core principles will not improve membership. much. In fact, the risk is membership will likely fall even more. So, is increasing membership really that important? Or is the desire really just having a totally inclusive youth program? That is not to say we shouldn't discuss these things, but maybe the discussion should consider what sacrifices folks are willing to accept to be more inclusive. Barry

I'm not sure what you mean, and maybe you aren't in a good position for a pragmatic discussion anyway. From the very beginning of this thing, most of us knew the BSA would pay. It's a litigious society. But, the question of, does the BSA organization deserve the blame, will be a popular discussion topic for a long time. It's a gnat the size of an elephant. And by the way, I don't cut off parts of text for some kind of advantage. Not my style. I respond honestly to what I think the poster is saying. If I misunderstood the poster, I'm mature enough to admit my mistake. I desire an honest discussion and respect honest contributions. Some folks get annoyed at me because I call them out when I think they aren't being respectful, or truthful. I only cut off text to highlight the specific part of the quote to which I am responding. Barry

"the court and laws are holding them accountable to a standard of negligence and violation of their duty to care, hire, protect, and, etc." Yes, that. Strang! You sure are taking big swipes at that gnat. My post was just a general explanation for why so many want the discussion. "hurtful or harmful about upping the ante with YPT and YP efforts". What? Barry

This will be a popular topic as long as the BSA organization is blamed for the abuses. Barry

You can rest easy, I'm here. Now, what's this about giving animals parking tickets. We need to get on top this. Barry

Really! This is very offensive. I’d like to see your polling data. Barry

Of course, your reputation for self-righteous posts proceeds this post. Condescending implications are immature at the very least and rarely ever produce positive outcomes. In fact, it usually produces the opposite results. There is no doubt you would be jumping into anyone treating your kids what you claim you are justified doing on this list. Scouting is exactly about teaching scouts how to use the scout law for giving a personal perspective without being demeaning or insulting. Intellectual discussions requires to first respect the other persons and presenting oneself without unwelcoming words or tone. Neutral or welcome discourse requires practice, but the person must want to practice first. Barry

When a poster threatens, DARES, or intimidate the list to agree with their opinion, then something has to change. Barry

Yep, adults require as much, if not more, teaching than the scouts. I taught a boy run and patrol method class in our council for two years. Let's require something like that for both the SM and CC. We kind of have the camp that Fred describes. While troops can camp there (we sent our patrols there when they wanted to camp without adults back in the day), the facilities were built with teaching in mind. It also has a COPES course and Climbing/Rappelling tower and pool for unit activities and adult certifications. I agree with Eagle94's concerns, I'm sure Fred does also, but this camp idea is worth discussing in an age of Helicopter Parenting/Leading to hammer out ideas and restrictions. I certainly like MattRs suggestions of kicking the adults out of the Scouts' camping area. OK, my words, but Patrol Method Camp Rules can force patrol method in the safe area of camp where the adults give the scouts more independence. This could turn into an instructional and Patrol method teaching/practice/tuning camp where Troops are required to attend at least once a year to get the adults, and maybe PLCs, back up to speed. I used to preach to council that the best quality control of multiple units (Districts) is training. Training is the one place all the units learn the same specific expectations to running their program. Sometimes they were taught wrong, but that is a difference subject. Most folks who have been here a while on the forum know that my greatest fear of everything going on with the BSA in the last few years is driving the BSA into a afterschool daycare program. Patrol Method is loosing its following because fewer adults have no experience and don't understand or trust it. Maybe this camp is the way to protect Patrol Method and enhance it's performance by training all the adults of it's methods and benefits. I don't know, just kicking a few thoughts around. Barry