Eagledad

Good response, thanks. Let me start with your uniform statement; I'm not sure where the negative uniform in the youths eyes is comi8ng from. My observation is more the adults that think it negative and project that on the youths. But, when talking to most scouts, they don't mind the uniform, and in fact, the girls scouts new uniform has gone back to the more traditional scouting style. All that being said to point out that we hear a lot of adults perceptions of the program that don't seem to hold true in the general perception. Either the perception is a personal bias, or it's a local bias. But, the mis-perceptions don't contribute to discussion of changes that would have real positive impact to scouting. I'm in and industry where innovation is part of my responsibility, based on our company mission. Human instinct is to always build a better mousetrap. But, I found that more often than not, humans want to fix what's not broken, and often get away from the mission. The mission of the BSA as proposed by National "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.". That is really a pretty basic mission, but it has complicated process, which is basically giving individual responsibilities of directing other individuals so that they learn from their decisions of how applications of moral and ethical directions, or non ethical and moral directions, result in the actions of others. To say replacing of current methods with real innovation is ignoring the real world performance of current methods. Do they need replacing? Why? How does innovation compare? Exactly. But, how does camping not inspire youth? Or, are we just doing it differently than was designed in the first place. Inspiration comes from the managers of the program. One of the main reason's I have observed were programs get derailed is when the adults are inspiring a program other than designed scouting program. We have a SM on this for a number of years that Scout-mastered THREE failed programs before he disappeared from the forum. Most of us could see his failure even while he passionate brag about his personal leadership techniques to his scouts. He was very inspirational and charismatic, but he wasn't doing the program as provided and actually drove the scouts away. OK, how does Battlebots give individuals responsibilities of directing other individuals so that they learn from their decisions of how applications of moral and ethical directions, or non ethical and moral directions, result in the actions of others? As a youth sports coach and a Soccer Coach for 10 years, I struggle to see how a sport can have the same mission as scouting because the nature of the activity doesn't encourage players to make group decisions to the degree where they learn a moral and ethical lesson. Scouting is not sports or visa versa. Marketing has to be applied correctly. When I was a Scouter, I had to put on my Scouter hat. When I was a coach, I had to put on my coach hat. As much as I tried to make them one hat, I couldn't. Not to say scouts can play sports during scouting activities, but that isn't the same thing. Our scouts played A LOT of sports in their scouting activities. The more creative scouts also play music, acted, and taught. But in the end, they needed the outdoor program to practice character building in the patrol. Scouting already encourages many activities that aren't outdoor activities to add fun and personal accomplishment. They just aren't the primary activity of making mortal and ethical decisions. The real concern I have with your post is how the indoor activities work toward the BSA mission to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.". I think to answer that question, you first have understand how the BSA program design accomplishes that mission. Then, you can design your new innovative program to enhance the same mission. I have said here before that when the adults have a good understanding of the principles for how the scouting program builds character, they can tune any program to achieve the same performance. I just don't that yet in STEM. Barry

This is a very interesting and unexpected response. I have said for several years now that the trend of scouting is going toward an after school type program. As a result of the BSA pulling in the family and getting away from the patrol method, an after school program is the natural result. I don't believe females are more prepared for STEM, just more comfortable with the STEM environment than outdoor camping. I believe, Men, and women, who are uncomfortable with outdoors choose the STEM because the environment for teaching STEM is more comfortable, and perceived safer. And I wonder if this is what has happened to the professionals at National. I don't mind STEM in scouting for adding more variety like Merit Badges to give scouts the opportunities to meet people and learn skills. But when STEM replaces the objectives of patrol method, then it's not scouting. It is school and the opposite of scouting. STEM isn't developing characters skills to prepare men and women for life. STEM almost feels like a MB program without the stress of advancement. Of course not all female leaders are uncomfortable with the outdoors, and of course many male leaders are uncomfortable with the outdoors, but if the adults of this culture are more uncomfortable with the outdoors, then no wonder family scouting and STEM is becoming more popular. No wonder scouting is turning into an after school program. And maybe that is a good thing in some cases, but it looses the main point of learning through making decisions. Scouting is about preparing men and women to make moral and ethical decisions using the Scout Law for life. The patrol method does that by putting scouts in positions to make decisions about the actions of the other scouts. I don't see STEM doing that. This post isn't about men and women, I think my observation was more the result of the huge influx of female leaders in a program that was led by men for several decades. I'm not anti female adult leaders, but I am pragmatic. Barry

This interesting reading. My observations are that when female leader are given direction over a troop program. They tend to steer away from outdoors. I’m wondering if that is why STEM is being pushed so hard. Barry

I remember some folks in 1995 stating the BSA was loosing membership because they didn't accept gays. They had nothing to prove their statement, mostly because where would they find it, even if it was true. Of couse those of us working in Membership had a different opinion. I've been out a while, but I could show where the drop out numbers were going and it had nothing to do with CO responsibilities or gays. Of course culture expectations have changed a bit, but our data was so pronounced that I'm confident CO responsibilities and gays are still way low, if not completely off the radar as reasoning for membership drop. So, when someone starts stating the BSA is loosing numbers because of some out-there reasoning that can't be proven, how much can we trust the rest of what they say? Having a CO as being responsible for a unit is more layers of responsibility, not less. Both council and District spend a great deal of time supervising over the units to remind them of their expected responsibilities. Many CORs don't get to involved because the responsibility is already being taken care of. I heard more complaints of to-much overseeing by the CO, Council and District than the other way around. But, I know Councils put a great deal of effort in keeping units up to speed on their responsibilities. And when comparing with other youth organizations, my experience is the BSA is active and any of them. I was never approached as a coach of counselor to discuss the expected actions to insure youth safety like I was a Scout Leader. I think folks are trying to hard to impress their personal reasoning of where points of failure exist on this subject. There may have to be some changes put in the system, but it will be purely for show to satisfy the lawyers, not for lack of performance. Barry

Interesting, I was reading the thread about CO support of units and it reminded me of the struggle we had with our CO. It started out good, but we started seeing a trend toward less support. That was OK so long as we had facilities for meetings, but, then the CO started charging us for meetings outside of regular weekly troop meetings. Then they started asking us to pay for damages caused by our scouts. Turns out it was the Girls Scouts and the church youth groups causing the damage, but that didn't stop them from putting tighter requirements on us. After several failed attempts to improve our relationship with the CO, we finally told the DE to get ready because we were searching for a new CO to get away from hostility of the present CO hostile. Our troop was the fastest growing troop in the council at the time, so our request lit a fire under council. Long story short, we were told the pastor of the church had a bad experience with his son in Cub Scouts some 20 years earlier and he didn't want the BSA in his church. We also learned he was an activist for gay ministers, but they didn't say how much that may have contributed to the hostility. I don't know the politics or details for changing the relationship with the scouts, but the church committee gave us a new COR and a promise of good relations. I was told that the bigger financial contributors of the church may have had some influence. And, not to long after, the church got a new pastor. Rumor was the church didn't like his activism. But, who knows, church politics are complicated. His attempt to kill the BSA in the church backfired because the COR, true to his word of support, started a new Cub program in the church. The church was also recognized a couple of years later with having the biggest older scout program in the council. That was an example of what someone with influence and a sour taste for the BSA can do to a scouting unit. Barry

My veterinarian told me the reason chose veterinary school instead of med school was he didn't want to deal with people. Little did he know when he made that decision that pet owners can be more demanding and unreasonable. Very few volunteers think about the difficulties of working with other volunteers, and parents. We just believe everyone is this thing for the same reason and all of us will get along. My wife logged that we got at least one parent complaint call every night for the first two years I was Scoutmaster. Oh, I have many many other stories of adults acting badly from the Cub days to my volunteering at the council level. I just used the Scoutmaster example for reference. I don't regret my time as a Scout Leader because I have so many many wonderful memories. But, I have many bad ones too. For some of us, the passion pushed us through. But, there certainly aren't enough of us to say that. Thank you for all your giving. Barry

We had one campout where one patrol only had one scout. It wasn't planned that way, but the other scouts bailed out Friday of that week for one reason or another. The scout had the patrol food, so he said, why not. He got a big ovation from the other patrols at the end of camp before loading cars to go home. He had a lot of fun. Barry

OK, it's your troop. Also, they don't have to do big activities. Meeting for a movie (covid?) might be fun to organize. As I said, its about quality of the BSA mission. Taking a break my be just that. Barry

Change, or not, is really about program quality. Not, trying to conform with lacking resources. Can you improve on "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law" by being more active in the summer months. I don't know, but, if let's say you wanted to try a month where the patrols propose, plan and run a patrol campout, or activity, giving them more practice taking full autonomy of their program, as an attempt to give them more opportunities to make ethical and moral decisions, then likely you will not meet a lot of resistance. True, summer brings the challenges of family vacations, but a patrol of 2 (or even one) can have a really great experience planning their own campout. And, in our own experiences where we needed more adults for YP requirements, we have asked non leader parents to tag along, suggesting to both the scouts and their parents that the scouts take good care of the parents because they don't have clue. My 37 year old son was reflecting last week on a similar experience his patrol had at Philmont when he was a scout. It was summer, their crew needed adults and none of the leaders where available because we had three HA crews that summer. We talked two parents on going on an experience of a lifetime where their sons. .Everyone had a great time. I not telling you what to do, you know your troop best. But, there are ideas if you want to consider trying more program in the summer. Ironically, our scouts wanted to be SPL in the summer because we let them have total leadership over the troop at summer camp. It is a full time job and they wear themselves out, but they also value the experience, and we pay their way to camp. But, on the other side of that, the ASPL gets the opportunity to be SPL for a few weeks while the SPL takes a well deserved break. And, other scouts get opportunities to lead with the High Adventure activities as well as the troop. Lots of opportunities for scouts to get some leadership experience. Even in a minimal program. Barry

Always trying to seal the deal by throwing out the self-righteous card. I guess if that is the only way you can get the last word, well, good for you. What value did that last sentence add to the rest of the post. There is no integrity in leaning on using shame to try and get your way. You say you support the BSA, but you can't even present your opinion without dishonest bias against the BSA. Something doesn't fit here. I struggle with all this because data it doesn't have the balance of real life to show an outsider how managing a scout unit really works. 20 years ago volunteers were required to take training every 3 years. So how does the 66% fit in that. Or are volunteers required to train every year now? As I said before, how many times does one need training when they practice a skill everyday. OK, I guess to keep the lawyers and CynicalScouters at bay, blind repetitive actions to check off boxes will have will be the standard order of volunteer scouters, and even parents. But, here on this forum, we can still be honest and talk about real life in scouting unit without feeling threatened. Negligent? Barry

And this is the reasoning where we disagree. You are suggesting the impossible. The BSA set the system in place to protect the kids. But, they aren't negligent for the bad actions of individuals. Barry

True, but it could be the death nail. And, honestly, your response suggest how far you are willing to let this go. You are probably justified, I wouldn't go there anymore. You are victim looking for restoration of your life. Plain and simple. You can't control the system trying to work that out, so don't get in the habit of justifying the wreckage. Surly you can respect our passion for the mission and vision of the program and the impact of its loss to our culture. I'm not saying our pain is greater than your's, but the inequity of how it's being resolved just feels immoral. Barry

The organization was struggling before the law suit. There is a risk. But if you want to get more into details, lets say at the very least the program as intended by the current mission and vision is at risk. Barry

Your basic reasoning all along has been the numbers. Many of us were personally solicited (pushed) by law firms to join the law suit. When everyone is asked to join, the numbers become meaningless against my experience. Barry

Well said. I'm not sure where I stand with putting some burden of the compensation on everyone for the bad acting of a very few. That is a worthy discussion. But, the risk is that the inconvenience is the total loss of the BSA. I think it reflects the unfairness of the situation. Barry

OK, but somehow the splits loose posts. Or I just don't see the new threads. If that is the case, I apologize. I do agree with the splitting, but this is like the gay issue years back, it's complicated and so intertwined that one specific thread is almost next to impossible. Barry

Really! How! As I said, elephant in the room. Yep, standard blow off when emotional reasoning isn't convincing. I'm reasonable, Most here are reasonable. Convince us BSA is truly at fault. Here is you problem with me and several of us, I was heavily involved with the BSA for over 30 years at both the youth and adult ages and at all levels of administration. I worked and trained with thousands of adults and scouts. I never heard of an act sexual abuse. Now, I'm not so naïve to believe it didn't happen, and that the numbers are in the hundreds over the many dozens of years. But, I personally never heard of one act of sexual abuse from adults or scouts during my long scouting experience. So, why should I believe a respected noble youth program over a century old should be killed without convincing evidence the organization as a whole is as negligent as you suggest? Now, you may say that just because I never heard of an sexual abuse instance, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. My response is that I was pretty heavily networked in the organization and I feel my experience in general represents the nature of the BSA and this subject overall. Barry

And giving them full blame to the point of non existence is just as insane. Ironically, you want to make every scout today, and the future, victims. And there it is, deep pockets. I have no trouble with the truth that the BSA is the target because they are the only capable source of compensation for sexual victims. At least that would be honest. I don't believe that fair, and that is the intellectual conversation that you are scared to have. But, it is the elephant in the room. Barry

This is not a fair conversation. Nobody here wishes you ill will, in fact just the opposite. This is not about us against them, as a couple here keep suggesting, it's about question of fairness over the future of a century old youth organization.. But, every time the discussion veers toward that question, the mod steps in and reformates (deletes) that part of the discussion and then says stick to the subject. Then, the thread starts out away from the question of fairness, but eventually works it's way back, AGAIN. I believe many of the members here want to express a frustration. But, not the moderator. Barry

One would only have to list the percentage of male adults to discount sexual abuse risks in the GSUSA. In general, fathers are not very welcome. That is their real YP, something that the BSA, or most other youth scouting organizations can't do. Barry

Yes, but it's easy to argue if they wanted. How many adults haven't rode a bicycle in five years, yet do they still have the skill? Does the current course change every year? And, if the adults are practicing youth protection all the time, does the "current" training have significant meaning in the field? I have deal with this same issue here at work. We take a lot of annual training that hasn't changed in 15 years, but the managers are held accountable to our participation, so we have to repeat it, over and over. And because of the anti-BSA folks we see even here on the forum, a pre-testout is probably out of the question. Barry

I'm sitting here thinking about the families who struggled with funds and eventually chose to leave the program. In many cases it wasn't the funding that drove them off, it was the participation expected of the parents time. The real issue is that parents of low income families don't have a lot of time to participate or volunteer. Funds (lack of) are the easy excuse, but not the reason. I saw this a lot with Tiger families. I remember one mother who was nervous about her deaf son joining our troop. She felt compelled to participate to insure he would be safe in our program. That was despite our deaf Eagle Scout and his parents insuring her that we worked well with deaf scouts. Funding was difficult for her, but she was assured that it wasn't a problem for the unit. It was her lack of time that eventually motivated her to withdraw the whole family. Barry

I can't recall anyone saying that scouting was a bargain, poor choice of words. But, they will say the value of what they got from scouting is worth the price. Still, I know the cost can be intimidating. Our units, district, and council, always had scholarship funds available FOR ANYONE that wanted to participate, but was limited by their funds. If families wanted to participate, funding is there. But, in general, the families that ask for help were the ones that felt the program was worth the asking. Same goes with the families that could afford the cost. If scouting has to measured as a bargain from a funding perspective, then it has to show value from participation. While I could go on and on about the value of growth and character (I'm pretty good at it), National got a lot of traction from the Eagle. What is the Eagle worth? A lot apparently. While the analysis does paint a picture, the program still is one of the largest youth programs in the world. When the Canadian Scouts followed the program that was much the same as the BSA program, it was the largest youth program in the world. So, in context, it's worth it. Good scouting isn't cheap, but it has value. Of course now the cost is much much higher and the challenges much much greater. Ironically, I think the efforts to make the program affordable for all would kill the spirit of what makes it valuable. It killed Canadian Scouts. Barry

We had a similar situation in our district 25 years ago. Everyone knew about it, but they couldn’t do anything because all adults involved were consenting to the situation. The troop and charter liked the guy as a SM, so council didn’t want to get in litigation over it. Council found a reason to kick him out when someone witnesses him offering a scout a beer. Barry

If the BSA is taken out, history will show it as a victim of this culture. The noble reputation won’t change and it will be talked about with envy for many years. I’ve passed along countless stories of my dads scouting adventures during WWII. I’ve heard my sons pass along mine, as well as their own. My grandkids will pass them along as well. A fitting legacy for a great program. Barry